There’s ”Purely Positive” Training, And Then There’s Effective Training—What’s The Difference?

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Diamond K9 Dog Training’s e-collar programs for off-leash obedience and behavior…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond K9 Dog Training here in Biddeford, Maine, and we specialize in e-collar training both for off-leash obedience and behavior modification, meaning we help people stop those unwanted behaviors like jumping all over people, digging holes in the garden, excessive barking, all that stuff. And the more serious stuff, um, like serious reactivity, aggression, resource guarding, separation anxiety, all that business. That's who we are. That's what we do. We also offer some great puppy training programs. Um, and that's it. And this podcast is for us to share everything we know and everything we talk about day in and day out with our customers, with you.

So I recently received a question, um, from a client who listens to the podcast and asked me if I ever talk about the key differences between me and a purely positive trainer. Um, and I don't like applying labels so much, but they usually apply this label to themselves. So those are the people we're talking about. Uh, to me there's two types of training. There's effective and there's ineffective, and that's it, <laugh>.

Um, but so, and you know my answer was, well, yeah, because I, I kind of feel like that's all I ever talk about. Um, it's honestly, perhaps I don't because I'm overcompensating because it is my favorite thing to talk about. It is the thing I am the most passionate about. Um, so the programs that we have, this establishment that I've created, the relationships I've built with my customers are all based around my really deep passion for getting the truth out there about dog training, uh, and what's effective and what isn't. And just combating the narrative out there that purely positive is the only good way to train a dog.

And the fact is you actually can't train a dog that way. Um, but of course that depends on your definition of train, right? So you might ask one person what a trained dog looks like and then ask somebody else and get two wildly different answers.

03:00 — Peppe argues that reward-only training produces dogs that listen sometimes rather than consistently.

And hopefully if you ask a purely positive trainer, uh, what a trained dog is, it is a dog that doesn't necessarily listen. Like that's what they should say, is a dog that listens sometimes or most of the time or when it's convenient or when they feel like it because that's all they're capable of accomplishing. I don't say that to be snarky, um, or rude. It's just the facts, guys, that that's just how it is. If all you can offer is reward and something to work for and you, you do not include in your protocols something to work to avoid, right?

Then you are not capable of achieving compliance in all situations.

You just can't do it. Uh, so I will elaborate a little bit on that today. I love using positive reinforcement and we use it all of the time. We use it to teach dogs how to do new behaviors. We use it to build enthusiasm and motivation. We use it to cement newly learned behaviors and really start creating new habit. But what do you do next? Because if you stop there, if that's all you have, and then you go out into the real world, there are distractions, there are squirrels, there are dogs, there are strangers, there's traffic, there's things your dog might be afraid of.

There's things they might want to chase.

And so you may have put in days, weeks, months, even years practicing with those protocols, cementing those behaviors with your rewards. And what do you do when your dog turns their nose up at it and says, "I'd rather go do this"? It's really simple. Like that's such a simple question. And if you ask them about that, you're going to get varying answers that revolve around increasing the value of the reward or spending more time, more repetition, putting in more hours, right? It's always your fault. You haven't put in enough time or you're not offering something good enough.

And the fact is just repeating things doesn't make the behavior reliable. It may strengthen it some, right? We all know we need to do repetition to strengthen habits, but repetition alone will not make something reliable in an unpredictable environment. It just won't. And increasing the reward won't either. Now, even if it does, let's say something happens and your dog gets away from you and you don't have a chicken leg in your pocket, then what? Okay, I, for one, do not want to have to be scrambling to find food, scrambling to find food that's good enough,

Right? It just doesn't have to be that way. And if it is that way and you're just in a tug of war with the environment every single time and your dog is just going to choose whatever option is more appealing, and there just aren't a number of reps you can do that will change that, there isn't a reward big enough that you can offer that will change that, you will be in a tug of war with the environment and your dog will choose whichever option seems more appealing, appeals to the stronger impulse at the time.

07:00 — Peppe describes choosing distractions as normal dog behavior and argues that reliable obedience requires…

That's just a fact. And that's normal. I like to point that out because it doesn't mean that your dog is stubborn. It doesn't mean that there's something wrong with your dog. It doesn't mean that your dog needs quote-unquote special training or quote-unquote more. That's normal, right? So if you want a behavior to be reliable across the board in any situation, then you have to introduce negative consequences for non-compliance. And now you're cooking with gas. So now instead of just, "If you choose to come back, I will give you something," now instead it's, "You must come back or it will be very uncomfortable."

That's much more effective, right? Because now you are taking the option away, really.

Right? If you're using correction that's motivating enough, no dog is going to choose the option of not complying. Now, if you're like a lot of people and you just nag your dog with very low negative consequences that are merely annoying, then yeah, they will choose to ignore you because you're not using a meaningful enough consequence. That is also normal. But I would like to point out, if you do this correctly, you don't have to do it all the time once your dog just knows. And that's what all this training is about, guys. Once your dog knows that you have expectations and they know very clearly because we're good trainers, we have a good training program, they know very clearly what those expectations are.

They know exactly what to do, when to do it, how to do it.

And they know for certain, they believe that there are negative consequences that are not tolerable if they don't comply with the expectation, then they just do it, right? We don't have to go around punishing dogs all the time, punishing the same behavior over and over again. Punishing non-compliance over and over again. Lighting dogs up for not coming back. We don't have to, we don't have to do that. So I think some people are picturing that, but no, we just have to put in place the expectation with the dog. And once they believe that we are consistent, they just come back.

And that happens really fast, guys, right? And then you can take your dog anywhere and they just listen to you. And that's the magic of good training, right? And now you have a dog you can give freedom to, you can trust, they are reliable, they are safe. They're not gonna get squashed by a GMC coming down the road 'cause they wouldn't come back, right? And from a purely positive trainer, they're gonna tell you that it's your fault. You haven't put in enough time or your rewards aren't high enough, you need something higher value. Um, and it's just simply a lie.

It's just a lie. And so what happens is it doesn't work. And then people have to go back and get another lesson where they're pretty much just telling you to use something higher. Like all you do is you go back and you practice the same thing you did the week before, the week before and the week before. And they just keep telling you to keep practicing. Just keep working on it, right? It's their favorite fucking line. Just keep working on it. Instead of telling you the truth, which is now that your dog is really good at this behavior, like they know exactly what to do, let's add a consequence for not complying and boom, like magic.

You have a dog that comes back when called, right? Or complies with any of the other commands. 'Cause this is true across the board with everything, right? And no, it's not as simple as slap e-collar on your dog and correct them. There is a process. Your dog does have to understand the behavior. They do have to understand what to do after a correction. There is a process. But the difference between us and a purely positive trainer is that we don't just teach the behaviors, we then make them not optional. That's the difference. If you're training your dog from, with a purely positive philosophy, everything remains optional.

There simply is no other way to see that. And so if it doesn't work for you and your dog, if you can't see and in saying, "Well, my dog always comes back except when or until they see," that doesn't count, guys. That's not a trained dog.

13:00 — She warns against off-leash freedom when owners know their dogs may not return in…

You can't say, "Oh, purely positive worked for my dog," and then say, "They always come back. Unless, until…" Well, no, if your dog doesn't come back or only comes back unless or until, then they shouldn't be off leash. That's right. You shouldn't have your dog off a leash if you know there are scenarios where you're gonna struggle to get them back. That is dangerous for your dog. And depending on your dog, maybe it's dangerous for other people too.

I got into this field because I had a dog that was dangerous. So before all of that, I didn't really put myself in a camp. I didn't even really know there were camps. But I probably would have aligned myself with the narrative out there, which is you can teach a dog anything. You can change behavior, you can get whatever you want using rewards. You just have to know how to do it. Like there's some skill set that will allow you to unlock your dog's potential using only rewards. But I have news: that was wrong. And so having this terrible dog turned out to be a blessing because me to look for other answers, right?

If I had had a happy-go-lucky Labrador or something, who knows, maybe I would still just be out there with chicken legs in my pocket, practicing recall, um, and failing <laugh>, right? But I would just chalk it up to we need more practice, keep working on it. But because I had a dog, um, that was a real danger to other folks, I had a real obligation to get it under control. Um, and I had an obligation to figure out how do I make these commands non-negotiable. It's imperative that she listens to me. Um, or we're gonna have some real problems.

It's bad news. And I learned more about making behavior reliable, um, from that experience than I believe I could have in any other way.

16:00 — She rejects the characterization of enforcing rules, boundaries, and negative consequences as inherently harsh.

Granted, I had a dangerous dog. But the principles don't change from dog to dog. They're all dogs, right? It's just more important when you have a dangerous dog. And one thing that really starts to grate on me, um, is people, the culture constantly reminding me that enforcing rules and boundaries is quote-unquote harsh, right? Not giving warnings is harsh. Issuing negative consequences is harsh. No, it's not. I'm not harsh. We're not harsh. We just know how to alter behavior and we know how to do it very effectively and very efficiently. And the end result is not a beaten-down dog with a broken spirit.

The end result is a dog that can go anywhere.

So if you align your training methods with this stupid, purely positive philosophy, you're never gonna be able to take the leash off your dog. Or at least you shouldn't because they're not gonna be reliable. Nevermind the until or unless like the until and the unless are going to happen because this is reality and the environment is unpredictable. Squirrels are gonna come along, strangers are gonna come along, dogs are coming, gonna come along, traffic's gonna come along. All this stuff is going to happen. So you can't take the leash off your dog, right? Unless you're one of those assholes that just lets their dog run around and do whatever they want and approach other people and run out in the road.

Hopefully you're not.

But that's what happens if you insist on, "I'm gonna try to accomplish everything using rewards." Because you can't, you can't make things non-negotiable with rewards. And so you can't take your dog off a leash. Maybe you can't take them anywhere because they're reactive. That's super common, right? Or every time you go anywhere, like you have a reactive dog and every time you see anyone or see anything, you're either hiding behind a tree or you're trying to dangle treats in their face and you're talking to 'em constantly. Here, look here, right? Trying to get your dog to look at you, stare at you while you walk by other dogs, putting the treat to their nose, bribing them.

That sounds like a lot of fricking work to me, right? And I'm not opposed to work, but at some point I wanna just be able to walk down the street and you're never gonna get there.

Like that is the sad truth, guys. You're just never going to get there with that 'cause you're not doing anything that creates real change, right? So I have no problem with doing that stuff to pattern something different, to teach something different. But when do we start to expect it? Right? So the problem with the purely positive philosophy is it keeps your dog in kindergarten, right? If you have a philosophy where, alright, we will use any method or strategy as long as it's effective and it doesn't cause harm, right? That's when you're cooking with gas and now your dog can actually graduate and become a functional entity where you can eliminate antisocial behaviors, where you can get reliability.

20:00 — Peppe rejects the balanced-trainer label, saying she prioritizes effectiveness rather than a particular ratio…

So, so, so important. Um, so that's the difference between us and our training and a purely positive type program. And again, I don't like to use labels. A lot of people would call us balanced trainers. I don't call us that. So most people use the term balanced trainers to mean that you use both reward and punishment. And that's true. We do. So you could call us that if you want to. Um, but I just think it's a bunch of malarkey. I'm not concerned about balancing things, right? So it's not important to me that we're using the same amount of reward versus punishment.

It's not important to me, um, that we're using a specific number or ratio or types of consequences. We just do what works. We just work with the dog in front of us and they're all different. And some of them are very soft and sensitive and some of them are very bullheaded and tough and they, they're super aroused and they don't even notice the e-collar, right? We get the whole spectrum of dogs.

We get the dogs that want nothing to do with us, won't even look at us. That's okay. We still train the dog and they, they do very well. We get the dogs that are really eager to receive affection and praise and they'll work all day for that, 'cause they, they just love getting affection from their people. We get all types and guess what? They all learn the same way, positive and negative. And so in any situation with any command or any unwanted behavior, any dog, we're just gonna watch the dog and we're gonna do what we know is effective with that dog.

And we always take into account the full picture, which is also different from purely positive, where it's cookie-cutter, right? Every single dog is just reward, usually food reward.

That's it. And I have clients who've told me, like, we stopped going to our purely positive trainer because she had to use raw meat to call her own dogs inside from the yard, right? How long has she had her dogs? A year, two years, five years. And she's throwing raw meat on the floor. Get them to run in after it. Well, wouldn't you much rather just be able to go outside, call your dog, and they just come? Geez, guys. It's like, no <laugh>, you know? No. So for people that think we're harsh or we're anti-reward, we're not.

23:00 — She says rewards can remain available after dogs understand expectations without being required for…

We're just really good at what we do. And we don't have to use rewards. Once the dog understands what's expected, and you can still use them, there's nothing wrong with rewards, right? But you shouldn't have to use them. And if you're going to reward every single little behavior, you just keep your dog in kindergarten, you're gonna get more monkey business.

Um, you're gonna get more pushback. You're gonna get a more aroused dog. It's like, dial it back and just give the rewards occasionally, right? When you wanna, when you wanna have a moment. Um, you don't need to be popping food into your dog's mouth constantly. And frankly, most of them are overweight <laugh>. So they don't need it. They don't need it. Um, but yeah, you know, we just did a go-home lesson. I actually started recording this right before the go-home lesson, and then I had to put it on pause, and now I'm finishing it up.

Um, after the go-home lesson, we just wrapped up, and we were having this talk where it's like we were toward the end of the go-home lesson and we were working on recall. And I'm like, this is it. Like, this is the beauty of the program is like if you do these things, your dog is just gonna go through the world in a different state of mind, right?

'Cause they're just gonna be better equipped to contain their impulses. They're gonna have a relationship with you that actually entails respect. Instead of just excitement. They're gonna know what your expectations are, right? So you don't have to struggle to manage them all the time. And you can take your dog anywhere, and when you're out and they don't have to go say hi to other dogs, they don't have to go say hi to other people. Your dog loves you. They want your approval, they want your affection. They want your praise. Teach your dog to engage with you when you're around strangers and strange dogs, that's gonna give you the best outcome that is gonna build such an amazing relationship.

Um, and you can't do that with purely positive because you have to jump up and down like a maniac and yell and dangle food. And it's just crazy to me. We don't do that here. We use the food strategically, just like we use negative reinforcement and punishment strategically, just like we use low stim and reminders strategically, just like we use act of God correction strategically. Everything we do, it is to accomplish a goal in that moment. And if you only have one thing, like, for instance, rewards, you're very monotone. You're creating a very gray experience for the dog where nothing ever changes, right?

There's never any varying consequences. There's never any varying outcome. It's just always the same. It's always the same. And the dog's behavior will just be however they feel in the moment.

I can't think of a good analogy off the top of my head, but it's like you just have so much more leverage when you're varying your consequences, especially when you're varying them based on the specific dog in front of you. And so that's it. Variability strategically based on the dog in front of us. And we don't keep them in kindergarten and we don't lie. And we don't blame the owner for not being able to achieve the results with nothing but rewards because that's just stupid. That is a training protocol. That is a philosophy that is more rooted in making yourself look good than it is actually accomplishing anything with your dog.

And that's it. I think that sums it up, but I'm sure I'll have another episode at some point in time elaborating even more on the subject, <laugh>. That's it for today, guys. Thanks for joining me, and I look forward to the next one.