Keeping A Rib-eye In Your Pocket Can’t Create A Reliable Recall In The Real World

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Diamond K9 Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine, specializing in e-collar training…

Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond K9 Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in e-collar training specifically for, um, off-leash obedience and behavior modification, dealing with things like reactivity, resource guarding, separation anxiety, um, as well as simple common things like just jumping up on people and counter surfing and pulling on the leash, et cetera, et cetera. So that's who we are, it's what we do. We also do puppy training. Um, and this podcast is, uh, a way for us to share the things that we are seeing and talking about with our clients hands-on day in and day out.

Speaker 1: Uh, if this is the stuff that they need that helps them, then obviously this is probably the stuff that helps, uh, lots of other people out there. So this is our way of, uh, sharing that information with all of you, and we try to be super, super, uh, honest, just straight shooters, transparent, and, uh, not sugarcoating things at all, <laugh>. So, um, that's who we are and what we do. And, uh, hopefully you get, get some good takeaways, um, out of today's episode. I wanna talk about why your dog should listen to you.

Speaker 1: So when we're dealing with dog training, there's two, there's generally two sorts of things that we're dealing with. Well, really three.

Speaker 1: So we have state of mind stuff, right? When you have a dog that has like severe separation issues, you have, um, anxiety, you have nervous, fearful dogs, and really, I mean, you could categorize those as unwanted behaviors, sure, but those are things we're really chipping away at over time and like addressing the dog's state of mind. And there's a lot to that. So I kind of put that in, in a category of its own, but outside of that, we're dealing with two main categories, and that is stopping behaviors and generating reliable behavior. So sort of, they're opposites, right?

Speaker 1: So you've got obedience where you're trying to build a behavior that you want your dog to do reliably, and then you have unwanted behavior or bad behavior for things that you wanna stop. Uh, like jumping on people, digging holes in the yard, getting into the trash, chasing the cat, right? Those are things you wanna stop, but you want your dog to come back when called, go to place or walk in a heel. Those are behaviors you want them to do. So those are obedience. So two opposite ends of the spectrum. Um, and I talk a lot about unwanted behaviors and how the only way you're truly going to inhibit an unwanted behavior is to attach an intolerable consequence to it.

Speaker 1: Uh, and that's true, and there is a right and a wrong way to do that, and I talk about that a lot.

Speaker 1: Um, but today I kind of wanted to focus more on wanted behaviors because there's some overlap here, right? So I always say, like I just said, stop an unwanted behavior. You attach a negative consequence to it.

04:00 — Kati explains using food or affection to reward desired behaviors when first teaching obedience.

Speaker 1: Um, and with a wanted behavior, like obedience training, uh, we do the opposite, right? We attach rewards to it. Um, in the beginning when we're teaching the dog what to do and how to do it, um, if the dog's into food, we use food. If the dog likes affection, we'll use affection. Um, I don't usually use play. Um, not that you can't, um, a lot of, especially like sport dogs, people will use play and that's fine. Um, but it's pretty time-consuming and it's not usually that effective with like the average family pet dog. Um, but even if it was, it would just, it would take up too much time to do the reps that we want to get in.

Speaker 1: Um, so we're usually using food, praise, affection, um, to, to increase the behaviors that we wanna increase when we're trying to teach the dog how to sit, how to go to place, how to walk in a heel, how to come when called, right? These are things we will feed, we will reward, but, and this is where we start to disagree with the purely positive crowd, right? Um, because some people will tell you that that is all you should need,

Speaker 1: that you can teach the dog what you want with food lures and rewards, and, and then that's it. You're, the training is done, but in reality, it's only half done, right? So someone needs to explain to me how the behavior becomes mandatory and not negotiable if all you're using is reward. Um, so because the reality is it doesn't, like you're in a tug of war with the environment forever. And if you have a dog that's really motivated by reward, then that might actually work out just fine most of the time. But the key word there is most.

Speaker 1: So eventually there's going to come a time where the squirrel is more interesting than whatever treat it is you have in your pocket, right? And if that is the only tool in your tool chest is the treat, then you're at the mercy of, of the dog and what their motivation is in the moment, right? So it literally is a game of tug of war with the environment: treat or squirrel, dog gets to take their pick. Like there's nothing you can do. What are you gonna do? Nothing <laugh>. Um, and so it, it's really common sense why that is not an effective strategy.

Speaker 1: And what you have to understand is this is their business model. This is how they profit.

Speaker 2: <laugh>.

Speaker 1: So, um, a lot of purely positive trainers out there are really, really good at training behaviors, teaching the dog what to do, how to do it. The problem comes in when it comes time to expect the dog to do it, because they don't have that in their philosophy. It's just not in there. So the solution to everything is just keep trying, right? So think about, think about what that looks like from, um, from a business standpoint. You get a new client, they wanna teach their dog things, they want it to become reliable off leash. So what they do is they take your money to teach the dog things or show you how to teach the dog things, either way.

08:00 — Kati criticizes repeated recommendations to increase rewards, adjust timing, or keep dogs under threshold…

Speaker 1: Um, and then that's it. They just keep taking your money and not making the behavior reliable because they don't have a mechanism to do that,

Speaker 1: Right? So you have to keep going back and they might, maybe they'll tell you to change some things, right? Like maybe a higher value reward or different timing with such and such, or here's a, here's a good one. Keep the dog under threshold. <laugh>, that's a real popular one. Just keep the dog under threshold. So in other words, don't work in the real world. That's what that means. That's what that translates to. Um, yeah, God, it makes me so mad because it's, you can't make this stuff up, right? So I'm not by any stretch saying that the dogs I train are perfect.

Speaker 1: They're not, and they never will be. And they're not robots and we don't want 'em to be robots anyway. You know, we have dogs that struggle and we have people that go home and sometimes continue to struggle. Most of the time if that happens, it's their own fault and they know it, but not always. I mean, sometimes it's just a challenging dog. Um, and maybe with their particular, you know, household dynamics and lifestyle, it can be hard.

Speaker 1: We do, we have dogs and people that sometimes continue to struggle and they, and they have a long road. Um, but most of the time, the vast majority of the time, people sign up, we train the dog and then we're done. Right? Doesn't mean the training is perfect and that they'll, they never have to give their dog feedback, right? But they know how to do that and they can now get reliable behavior off leash. That's what happens most of the time because our process is teach the dog what to do and how to do it and then expect it by providing a consequence if they don't do it.

Speaker 1: So we do that and we show everybody how to do that, and then they go home and the only time I hear from them is when they send me a text message to let me know how amazing their dog is doing, right? Or occasionally someone will have an issue or a question and we help them resolve it. We usually don't even have to see them to do that.

Speaker 1: And that's what it should look like. If, if a, if you have to keep going back to your dog trainer for the same thing over and over and over again, and they're not showing you how to make that behavior reliable. If their answer is always that you need to try this, try that, try this, try that, um, or just keep practicing, keep trying or keep the dog under threshold. Those are all fails, guys. That's never going to work. You know, I always kinda chuckle when I get the email or the text message that asks me if I'm taking new clients because I know where they've been.

Speaker 1: They've been going to the purely positive crowd for training, and a lot of them probably don't have room for new clients because they have to keep the same ones coming back forever. So there's never any room for anybody new. I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but it's true. So look at our private sessions customers, right? They sign up for a four or five session program, and when they finish it, they're done most of the time, the vast majority of the time. Some people continue to do an odd session here and there, especially people that have dogs that, um, are really, really nervous, fearful or struggling with reactivity.

12:00 — Kati says most clients finish their sessions with skills to continue training at home,…

Speaker 1: Those people might want more help, more nuanced, more advanced help with stuff as they continue to chip away at home.

Speaker 1: But 99% of the time they sign up, they do their sessions, the dog has the skills they need, the people have the skills they need and they're done. And now they can just go home and continue to build on that. And that's how it goes. If you go to a trainer who tells you you just need to put in more time, more practice, more patience, more hours, basically everything's your fault for not trying hard enough and they tell you you shouldn't need punishment or correction or to make your dog uncomfortable ever. Um, then everything just remains optional.

Speaker 1: Everything remains negotiable. Nothing will ever be truly reliable in the real world around distractions above threshold ever. It just won't be. And having a dog that only comes back if it values your reward more than the environment, that's not okay to have that dog off leash. That is not a safe dog, essentially. It's 100% optional whether or not they come back. Not okay. So what do you do? Well, you train the dog, which means you use the praise, you use the affection, you use the food, assuming they want any of that stuff, to build up the behavior.

Speaker 1: You use leash guidance on a leash to show them what to do.

Speaker 1: But ultimately, at some point, after you've done all this reps and you've put in all this time, ultimately at some point you need to treat non-compliance just like any other unwanted behavior, guys, <laugh>. And that means you're going to treat not coming when called,

Speaker 1: Just like getting into the trash. There's a high consequence if you don't come back when you're called. And guess what? Now the behavior goes from optional to not optional. If your dog doesn't know that that can and will happen, then there really just isn't any reason for them to listen to you. This sounds like common sense, but it's not because there's so much crap out there on the internet that says otherwise. And people are brainwashed to believe that if their dog knows what they want and if they pay them for it, then their dog should just do it.

Speaker 1: And if their dog doesn't do it, then that means they just haven't been patient enough or they haven't been practicing long enough, or they haven't been putting in enough time or, or there's something wrong with them or there's something wrong with their dog. And none of those things are necessarily true. They could be. I'm not there. I don't know. They could be. Um, but it's just normal <laugh>, it's just normal for the dog to say, no, not right now. I'd rather do this instead. Right? It doesn't matter if your dog knows exactly what you want and knows exactly what the reward will be, they might still choose not to do it.

16:00 — Kati describes choosing distractions over commands as normal canine behavior rather than stubbornness.

Speaker 1: So, and what are you gonna do? You gotta have a plan for that, right? And if you haven't tied punishment into that for not coming back,

Speaker 1: Your dog knows, like, there's just no reason to do it. That's just normal. It's not a stubborn dog. And that's what people will say, oh, my dog is stubborn. No, your dog is normal. They're doing what comes naturally and what they desire to do. What's stubborn about that? It's just normal. You haven't given them a good reason not to. Totally normal. So when we talk about punishment, we're normally talking about it in the context of stopping unwanted behaviors: jumping, digging holes, barking, growling, mouthing, chasing things. And that's true. But ultimately, to finish off your obedience, it's the same thing.

Speaker 1: So you should put in lots of time, and you should put in lots of reps, and you should take your dog to different environments and practice in different places. But once you do that, if you wanna seal the deal and make that behavior truly reliable, you ultimately need to finish it off by treating non-compliance just like any other bad behavior. And you need to tie in the punishment piece. And there are people out there that will say, no, you don't. But the fact is, their solution to your problem is to just keep your dog on a leash or to just be very careful about where you go. Go, go somewhere where there's no other people around at off hours.

Speaker 1: And even then there's obviously still risks. That's stupid. And you'd be surprised how many people do that, right? And it's not surprising because that's what people tell you to do, people that should know what they're talking about.

Speaker 1: I did a consultation a few, well, probably a week ago now, something like that. Um, these people have a dog that will run up to other people, uh, doesn't bite them per se, um, but accost them, will jump on them, will take articles of clothing off them, <laugh>, okay? Now, how happy would you be if you were walking down a trail and a big dog came and did that to you? Um, this has happened. And so what are they doing? Well, obviously they reached out to me. So they're looking for training, which is, which is good.

19:00 — Kati describes owners continuing off-leash outings in quieter public locations despite knowing their dog…

Speaker 1: Um, but they, they were still taking their dog off leash, right? They just changed where they go, like, oh, well now we go to this place where we, we don't usually see people, but the fact is, there could be—someone could come along public property and their dog's off leash and they know their dog does this to people. And uh, this isn't me trying to pick on them. Um, they're getting the training they need. And, and we talked about that, right? So I shared my, my opinion and my advice there, which is, your dog can't be off leash right now,

Speaker 1: And I get it. They're worried about getting the dog its exercise. But people worry so much about this that they take unreasonable risk. Yeah, of course we want your dog to get their exercise. Um, but if your dog isn't totally reliable off leash, then they can't get it that way. Guys, you're gonna have to find another way to get your dog their exercise. Put them on a leash, take 'em for a walk, take 'em for a jog, put 'em on the long line, bring 'em out in the yard and throw the ball around. If you have a fence, whatever it is, bring 'em swimming if you have a pool, right?

Speaker 1: But you can't take your dog off leash if they don't come back. And especially if they bother people, you can do that. It's not worth the risk, trust me. Um, and the way we're gonna fix that for them is just what I said. We're gonna pattern coming back when called. We're gonna do lots of that on a, a short leash, lots of it on a longer leash. We're gonna tie in the e-collar, and then ultimately, before that line comes off, we will tie punishment to not coming back, right? We'll use lots of food early on if the dog likes food, lots of praise, lots of guidance.

Speaker 1: And then ultimately it's, oh, you don't wanna come back. Okay,

Speaker 1: Here's a correction. And the fact is, once most dogs, once they know that, they become so much more reliable and your life becomes so much easier, right? But without that piece, it's just the dog weighs their options. Like, why wouldn't they? That's just normal. Normal. So, and we're talking a lot about recall right now, but this applies to all the commands, right? But I think it's important to just reiterate and stress that, like, you have to put in the work. Just punishing your dog for not doing this stuff, that's not gonna work. Your dog has to really fully understand what the expectation is.

Speaker 1: And that doesn't happen as fast as people think it does. So people think if their dog sits a couple times, that means they know sit. It doesn't, it doesn't. It means they know how to sit, doesn't mean they know the word sit. So it's dozens and dozens, even hundreds of reps with guidance, with rewards, <silence> before your dog really cement and associates the word to the behavior and becomes pretty good at it. Just 'cause you see your dog do something a couple times doesn't mean they really know it,

23:00 — Kati cautions against correcting noncompliance immediately, emphasizing that owners must first invest time in…

Speaker 1: Right? And so it's not, it's not something you start

Speaker 1: Correcting non-compliance for right away. You have to put in the time. But once you've done that, of course there has to be a consequence for not listening. Somebody, please explain to me why your dog is gonna come back to you when they're off leash having a good time and they see a dog or a person or a squirrel or whatever it is that they're totally into. Why are they gonna come back to—why? And if the answer is because I give them a treat, well, that's just stupid <laugh>. It's just stupid because a treat, there are gonna be things out there that your treat, that your reward can't compete with.

Speaker 1: And so what do you do then? What do you do? Somebody please tell me what you do. And the answer is usually that you increase the reward, and before you know it, you're just carrying around, like, raw beef in your pocket, right?

Speaker 2: <laugh>

Speaker 1: Rabbit's feet, <laugh> for luck. Um, but really, like, there needs to be, after you've put in the work, you've put in the time, you put in the reps, there needs to be punishment for non-compliance. It's just really, really simple math, guys. Um, and the way that we like to train, we actually take it a step further than that. And we do tons and tons of low-level e-collar work before we ever get to the point where we're punishing non-compliance. So we're really teaching the dog,

Speaker 1: Um, what the e-collar means, what it feels like, how to respond to it in different contexts, and using it as a form of what most people would refer to as negative reinforcement. So it's very, very gentle and we use it as a form of pressure. We refer to it as pressure because it shuts off when the dog does the behavior, but it's very, very low in the beginning. Um, and by doing this, this enables us to train in the most gentle manner, um, because we're able to give the dog guidance essentially with the e-collar on low levels and then only increase it over time after they have the reps, the practice and the experience and the knowledge, and they understand it.

Speaker 1: Um, and they're choosing not to comply. Now we can, we can turn that level up to whatever level is right for that dog. Um, so really might be the gentlest way to train, um, and get reliable, solid behavior. Uh, and a lot of people are freaked out by this because it just seems really complicated and there is a skill set to it. But we have a great program. If this is something you're interested in and you wanna try out, go to the website, uh, diamondcanine.com, and that is Diamond, D-I-A-M-O-N-D, canine, C-A-N-I-N-E dot com.

27:00 — Kati introduces 10 Days to a Great Place, an introductory e-collar course for owners…

Speaker 1: You go to the website and there's a course available there called 10 Days to a Great Place. And what this course is, is it is an introduction to e-collar training. So this is fantastic. It's a fantastic course for people who want to do e-collar training or are interested in it, but are just scared of it, and they're afraid they're gonna mess up their dog, <laugh> screw something up, which, by the way, you're not. Even if you screw up the training, it can be fixed. Um, but this course is great because

Speaker 1: It starts out by talking about the basic fundamentals of the equipment and what habits you should get into right away, how to put it on your dog, you know, how to set it up properly, how to find the level you should be using, um, that's all covered. So it's very thorough. And then it walks you through how to teach the place command from start to finish, meaning starting with a dog that has no idea what place is, and you teach that dog the place command, you tie the e-collar into it and you take that dog all the way to the point where they can stay on there for hours around distractions, even when people come through the door.

Speaker 1: Um, and so it's a great way to get your feet wet with the e-collar, it's thorough. Um, you get to see it, uh, with your own eyes, with explanation of what's happening, and you get to focus on one command so you're not scattered trying to teach your dog all sorts of different things. And then once you do that, you're gonna feel comfortable expanding into more. So it's a fantastic start for anyone who's not sure. So anyways, I won't continue to to blabber on about that, but go to Diamond K9 dot com and, and look for that course.

Speaker 1: It's $99 and it's well worth it if you're interested in e-collar training and you don't want to hire a trainer right now for any reason. Uh, it can be expensive. Um, and obviously you have to work on whatever their schedule, their availability is, so, you know, if it's something you wanna do yourself at home, um, do it, do it. Uh, okay, guys, that's it for today's episode. Uh, thank y'all for joining us today and I look forward to the next one.