Dog Training Dirty Words: Force, Punishment, Tools, And Suppression

00:00 — Kati Peppe opens Off Leash and Unfiltered with a trigger warning and asks listeners…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everyone, thanks for joining me today for another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. We have a spicy one for you today. Uh, sometimes, you know, I go to record and I, I sit down.

I don't have these things figured out ahead of time. I don't, I don't have them written down. I don't have a script. Um, at best, sometimes I have kind of a list of ideas that I think, uh, would be a good idea to talk about <laugh>.

Um, but it's very much unplanned. Like I just sit down and I just rattle off like whatever junk is going through my head, but sometimes it feels like I am saying the same things over and over again. Uh, covering the same topics, talking about the same stuff. And I know that's not really the case. Like, yeah, it's kind of all the same stuff, but it's, um, different angles, different aspects of it, and sometimes hearing it stated a different way, um, or even just the repetition of it is helpful. So, so I get that, but it's hard for me to decide, like, is that something I should talk about again?

Should I touch on that again? And it's like, I'll just sit there sometimes and I'll just go round and round about this before I, for like an hour before I finally start talking. Uh, and it's just stupid <laugh>.

So, um, what I've landed on today is, I don't know, I think I'm just feeling salty, like I'm just feeling it, you know what I mean? I'm in one of those moods where like, everything's just kind of getting to me. Like life's just kind of been a lot lately. Don't get me wrong. Like, life is good, but it's stressful right now. <laugh> It's, there's, there's a lot happening. We've had a lot of stressful events. Um, I've been working by myself for a week and woo, let somebody tell me that e-collars are bad. Um, yeah, <laugh>, you might see me in the headlines.

Um, so today I thought, you know what? Let's just talk about all the dirty words, um, all the hijacked terms, all the words that the purely positive crowd will tell you are bad. Um, all the stuff I use. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the big four: force, punishment, tools, suppression. Ooh, bad <laugh>.

03:00 — Kati argues that training terms sound bad because people have been taught to associate…

Um, but seriously, they, they do sound bad, right? Because, well, because we've been taught that they're bad. And that sort of, um, that's just sort of, what is the word I'm looking for? I don't know, but it's, um, that's sort of the connotation. I guess that's the word I'm looking for, that these words have taken on, right? We've all been given the impression that these things are bad, they are negative, they are unhealthy. So let's just kind of break it down, um, and talk about it. So first one is force. And I wanna do two things.

I wanna talk about what the word actually means and how we use it, but I'm also at the same time going to be talking about how even the people that say these things are bad are using them, so they're hypocrites. Um, so force, listen, what does force mean, right? It means you're not giving the dog the option. That's force.

So when you think about it, what's the alternative? The alternative would be to let the dog have the option, right? If you are not forcing a dog to do things, then that means they get to choose whether or not they do it. There is no other way to see that. That is literally how it is. And so I would like to point out that if you ever put your dog on a leash and they wanted to run away to chase a dog, a squirrel, a ball, to go run in the road, to go jump on some whatever, and you didn't let them, right?

You held onto the leash. Well, that is force, and only an idiot can't figure that out. So the thing is they wanna draw up this, um, this dichotomy. They wanna draw up this, this idea where force, the way they use it, is good and okay, and force the way other people use it is bad and evil and damaging, which is ridiculous. The dog doesn't know the difference.

06:00 — Kati equates force with requiring compliance and says compulsion is another label for the…

Force is force is force. You have to versus it's up to you, and it's up to you doesn't sound like very good training to me, <laugh>. So, so yes, we use force. Oh, here's the other word they like to use in place of force because it sounds scarier: compulsion. So the whack jobs over in the UK that have been harassing me would call me a compulsion trainer. Okay? Yeah. I use compulsion in addition to many other things. But again, if they've ever put a dog on a leash and forced it to stay with them, that is compulsion.

Yes, we compelled the dog to do things. We force them to do things they don't feel like doing. Guys, that's the fucking training. That's the training. Like, if you don't wanna force your dog to do things they don't feel like doing, then just don't train them. No training needed because your dog will come like that. They'll be born that way. Dogs are born that way already. They only do it when they feel like it. <laugh> The point in training is to get the dog to do it when they don't feel like it. That's the training.

Yes, that's force. That is compulsion because there, there's this narrative out there. There's this, um, myth that like if your, that your dog will always wanna do the thing you want them to do, right? They just, if they're not doing it, it can only be because they don't know what you want, right?

Because that's the other side to that. That's what that means. If your dog, if you can accomplish reliable behavior without force, without compulsion, without any of these negative, negative, bad things, then that means that you have the power to get your dog to want to do all the stuff you want it to do without any negative consequences ever, or management or a leash, right? There's a myth that says if your dog knows what you want, they'll do it. So if they're not doing it, then it has to be because you haven't done a good enough job training your dog what they're supposed to do, right?

No, that's stupid <laugh>.

And I'm not calling the people stupid that have bought into this because it's just shoved down your throat from every which direction. And I can see why people believe that. Hell, ChatGPT still can't get it right? I think that will change. But right now it browses the web. It pulls information from the most popular sources, and those sources are wrong. Force will be necessary in dog training. Force is not abuse. Force means you're taking away the option to do other things and you are requiring the dog to do this thing, this behavior. It's nothing more than follow-through in getting the thing you asked for.

That's force. Do I use force? Fuck yes, I use force.

What kind of a dog trainer would I be if I didn't? A purely positive one. A very bad one. Same thing, by the way. And this is also the reason why the purely positive trainers will break down and say there's a difference between obedience training and behavioral training. Which there is some nuance there, there is a difference. But here's the thing. When a dog won't comply with their obedience commands, and they have to admit that the dog knows them, because like you can only charge people for so many hours of dog training and say that the dog doesn't understand.

11:00 — Kati criticizes trainers who classify noncompliance as a behavioral issue outside their services.

So when the dog doesn't comply, they say, oh, well this is a behavioral issue. Okay, you are the dog trainer. We don't do behavioral issues, we just tear down the people that do <laugh>. And by the way, it's not a behavioral issue. Yeah, it's behavior, right? It's just behavior you don't like.

So what they're saying is they only deal in building the behaviors you do like, like sitting, laying down, going to place. They're good at building those behaviors. They deal in those behaviors. But when the dog refuses to do it, they don't deal in that. That's behavioral. But then they'll have the audacity to tell the folks like me that do deal with it and deal with it very well, thank you very much, that we're bad, we're damaging the dog, but yet they can't fix it, right? So whether it's non-compliance with obedience commands or it's jumping on people, or it's resource guarding, it's something serious, it's reactivity, they can't fix it.

None of them can fix it. I, I can say that with a hundred percent confidence, hundred percent they can't fix it, but yet they can run their mouth, flap their gums, point the finger and make accusations about the trainers that can fix it. Can usually fix it pretty quickly because it's easy, guys. Like a lot of this stuff is easy. A dog not complying with a known command, that's easy. So yes, we use force, gimme a break, <laugh>, you will literally accomplish nothing without the use of force, them included. Again, because just having a leash on the dog, that's force.

14:00 — Kati introduces punishment and argues that critics wrongly redefine training terminology to mean abuse.

You can't change the definition of the words to make you look good and everyone else look bad. The words mean what they mean, but they wanna change the definition so that they mean abuse, and they don't. Punishment. Number two, this is a big one. Boy, has that word been hijacked?

Well, they've had a lot of fun with this one. And admittedly people hear the word and they kind of, ugh, they kind of shudder, right? They kind of cringe inside or outside. Everyone gets that kind of, oh, like I don't wanna punish my dog. Normal human, okay? But I want you to understand that in behavioral science, when we say punishment, all that means is something that inhibits a behavior. That's all it means. The great Gary Wilkes, who I have said over and over again, you should follow on Facebook. If you don't follow him, you should follow him.

Used a great example one time, um, like if somebody was at a salad bar or a dinner table, right? And they sneeze on, on the salad or they sneeze on the last dinner roll and you wanted it, are you going to eat it now? Hell no, you're not gonna eat it. Now, that's literally by definition punishment.

So yes, it's unpleasant and yes, it stops a behavior. It does not necessarily involve physical pain or discomfort, although who cares? We'll go there, we'll get there eventually. Um, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could be anything. I have given dogs affection and that functioned as punishment. I have inhibited behaviors usually by accident, by giving a dog affection. Um, as it turns out, dog didn't like affection or they didn't like it in the way I was sharing it, didn't like their head pet. That's a punishment. If it inhibits a behavior, it's punishment. So if I don't use punishment, then by definition I do not stop behaviors.

I cannot stop behaviors because if I did stop them, that is punishment. So even the purely positive folks who all they know how to do is give biscuits or withhold biscuits. Maybe if they were to be successful at stopping a behavior, they have punished the behavior, which they're not.

17:00 — Kati argues that anyone claiming to stop a behavior is, by definition, punishing that…

Um, but they can't have it both ways. So if they want to take credit for being able to stop a behavior, then by definition they are punishing the behavior. There is no other way to see that. That is a fact. And I'll tell you right now, we're very good at stopping behaviors. We're very good at knowing how to punish behaviors and teaching our clients how to punish behaviors. And you know what? It's what everybody needs the most when I meet them. I don't have very many people come to me and say, I just can't teach my dog how to sit.

That's not their problem. The problem is asking the dog to sit so they don't jump isn't working <laugh>. They want the dog to stop jumping. They want the dog to stop reacting to other dogs. They want the dog to stop counter surfing, right? They want all these things and sit isn't getting it done because it won't, because it's not a punishment. That will not punish a behavior. Doing a different behavior does not inhibit another behavior.

I use this example a lot, but if I'm trying to be healthier, right? Or I'm trying to lose weight or whatever it is, and my doctor says, well, we just need to teach you to eat celery and broccoli. Okay, I can do that, but that alone is not gonna stop me from eating chocolate cake, right? Those are two completely different behaviors. Doing one does not preclude me from doing the other one. Even if it's delayed, even if I do it less, I'm still gonna do it unless I have a set of instructions in my head that says, not just eat broccoli, but also that says, do not eat chocolate cake.

So you can't just leave out that instruction because doing one does not preclude me from doing the other one. If it did, that would be like saying, well, if I learn French, then I'll no longer speak English, huh? No, that's not how that works. If I were to actually need to stop speaking English, you'd have to punish that behavior. Now the obvious difference here is that as a human who can set goals and think about these things, I can set goals for myself and go out of my way to try to attain them. That's obviously different from dog training.

Dogs don't set goals. They can't rationalize, okay? Your dog is never gonna be like motivated to stop jumping, right? Just because mentally it's like their own goal. They wanna stop jumping. Like that's, that's not gonna happen, guys. It's a dog <laugh>. So, uh, but my point was just that teaching a new behavior does not preclude you from doing the old behavior. That's stupid <laugh>. What most people get when they do that is a combination of both. The dog just does both behaviors. So it does not get rid of the behavior you want it to get rid of. Effective punishment will.

21:00 — Kati advocates consequences she describes as meaningful and intolerable to the dog without causing…

And that means attaching a sufficiently negative consequence to the behavior that we want to go away. And it should be a consequence that is tangible and meaningful and frankly intolerable to the dog. But also that does not cause harm. And that is easy to do and we do it all the time. And it's silly not to because you will struggle forever. And who wants to do that? I don't wanna do that. Tools, number three. Again, if a trainer is dumb enough to pick on other trainers using tools, I would suspect that they didn't make it past the second grade.

Who doesn't use tools? 'Cause literally, if you give dogs food, that's tool. If you put 'em on a leash, that's tool. If they're wearing a collar, that's tool. So I would be very careful about choosing your words if you're one of these idiots. One would think, well, why would they be listening to this podcast? You'd be surprised. That seems to be how they spend most of their time is consuming content made by trainers they don't like because they do a good job. <laugh> Trainers that point out their inadequacies, they cannot get enough of watching that content.

Tools. Yeah, we use tools. We will always use tools and we will always use the best, most effective, efficient tools for the job, which in 99% cases is an e-collar. A hundred percent of cases really. 'Cause e-collars are just so versatile and so practical and so easy and so effective, and you have such a wide spectrum of intensity available to you that it makes them perfect for any dog. Even a super nervous, sensitive dog, even a pushy, forward, obtuse dog. It enables you in most cases to get rid of the leash and communicate to your dog without a leash.

24:00 — Kati describes e-collars as enabling remote intervention when dogs charge toward roads or other…

It enables you to inhibit behaviors without a leash from across the room, from across the yard.

It enables you to physically touch your dog without a leash when they are charging toward the road or another dog. If you think that's a bad thing, well, I can't help you, <laugh>. There is no help in you. So I'm not saying everybody has to love the e-collar or that it has to be right for everyone, everyone has to use it. But to me, unless you are unable for some reason, it's just silly not to. Like you're totally missing out. And to be a trainer who not only doesn't use an e-collar, but decides that they're gonna tear down the trainers that do, it just speaks volumes as to how inept they are.

And inevitably, guys, those are the people that end up whenever you debate them, right? They would just end up in incoherent shrieking. That's them. So you can ask me anything about the tools we use, and I can give you a coherent, logical answer and proof <laugh>. I, I have thousands of hours of video of us using these tools and what dogs look like before and after. Um, although admittedly I am terrible at getting before video, but um, you can see dogs that were not responsive, were tuned out and how much better they are. You can see video of dogs that were reactive and are not now. Um, yeah, tools, I mean, hire any kind of a professional and ask them not to use tools and they're gonna go, huh, uh, nope.

Right? Hire a plumber, hire a carpenter, hire a mechanic. Oh, hey, could you do that without tools?

We don't like tools around here. No, we're gonna use tools. It's stupid. You, you couldn't pay me enough to train dogs without tools. And by the way, the reason you couldn't pay me enough to do that is because it's not just about the money. The results actually matter to me. And so, yeah, we use tools, you know, and the funny thing is the people that bitch about tools also use tools. So that's hilarious. You know, and anybody online can say anything they want and it's so easy and they can just hide behind their little keyboard.

Um, but they never have to back it up. They never have to show any proof of anything. They can just, again, incoherent shrieking. Okay, why are you here? <laugh>

Good for you. Carry on. Suppression, number four. This falls right in the same category as punishment, guys. So people make a big deal out of suppressing behaviors. Uh, they make it sound like it's a bad thing, but you really have two options. I mean, when it comes to a behavior that you don't like that you want to go away, you've got two options: you can suppress it or not. Those are the options, <laugh>. So suppression is not this bad, evil thing. Um, suppression is not damaging. Suppression does not mean that it's temporary, although it could be.

28:00 — Kati reads Merriam-Webster’s definition of suppress, emphasizing putting something down through authority or force.

Um, suppression literally means that you're forcibly stopping a behavior. In fact, let me look up the definition right now and I'll read it to you.

Alright, so let's actually look up the definition of suppress and Merriam-Webster. Suppress. The first definition listed is to put down by authority or force: subdue. Okay? So I think the phrasing to put down is actually interesting there, but so to forcibly stop something, that is what suppression means. Okay? So the people that don't like suppression, they want you to convince the dog. Like take them out for tea, have a heart-to-heart, bring them to dog therapy, and maybe you can convince them that they don't wanna do those behaviors anymore. But if that's not working, then you'll have to use suppression, which is to just force it to stop.

Suppression is not bad. Could the behavior come back? Yep. So any behavior could be displayed at any time. That's a fact that it will always be true for every person and for every dog. But if you're good at suppression, you will know how to create an inhibition that is the most likely to stick for the longest amount of time. Unfortunately, the way that you do that is by doing all the things people don't like to do, by using intolerable consequences. People don't like to do that, right? They like to take it as easy as they can, as gentle as they can, least invasive, right?

It's like, okay. But if you do that and you do manage to suppress or somewhat suppress the behavior, it's way more likely to come back. And in the process you're kind of desensitizing your dog to those procedures. And so ultimately in the end, you'll have to use much more force than you would've had to use to begin with if you had just done it right the first time.

So we suppress counter surfing. Dog thinks about getting up on the counter, saying, no, we turn the e-collar way up and we hold the button down for a few seconds. It sucks. I don't like it, but I know it's just a few seconds of the dog's life. It's gonna come, it's gonna go, they're gonna be fine, and they're not gonna get on the counter anymore. And unless you have one hell of a confident, forward, pushy dog, they're probably never gonna try it again, right? And if they do in six months, a year or whatever, so what? Can you do it again?

32:00 — Kati recommends periodically checking behavior inhibitions by leaving temptations out and observing the dog’s…

Right? You periodically check on things to make sure those inhibitions are still intact, leave some temptations laying around and just watch and make sure your dog's making the right choices. Um, just because you properly punish a behavior doesn't mean that it will never come back. Nobody's promised that. Your dog's a living thing. Brains are complicated. They do stuff <laugh>, okay? But in most cases, if you're good at it, you can use suppression very effectively and it makes everybody's life better. So yes, we suppress behaviors, we're actually quite good at it. And again, it seems to be what everybody needs, and it seems to be what nobody can get help with.

So yeah, suppression can suppress the bad behaviors, the unwanted behaviors, or leave them intact and let your dog do them. <laugh> Makes no nevermind to me, guys, okay? But as a trainer, we're going to suppress the behavior. That's what people want. That's what people need. And frankly, it's what dogs need because they'd get to stay in their homes if anybody would do that, right? The people that bitch and moan about the shelter crisis, which, by the way, there is no shelter crisis, okay? They're like scouring the world trying to collect dogs because we don't have any.

<laugh>.

But the people who bitch and moan about adopt, don't shop and how the shelters are so full, well, the shelters wouldn't, the shelters aren't full because of breeders, okay? The shelters are full because of mainly people don't know how to suppress behavior. People don't know how to use force. People don't know how to use punishment. People don't know what the proper tools are and how to use them. People are fed a line of bullshit about how you should never need to force anything, and you should never need to use tools. And you should never need to use punishment for anything and keep everything positive.

And my friend, those dogs end up in the shelter because what other way could that really turn out besides everybody being a prisoner in their own home?

Most people love their dogs and want to keep them. I believe that most of the time when someone surrenders a dog to a shelter, it is a very sad event for their family and that they just didn't know what else to do. And I blame the folks that are tearing down the trainers that use force, punishment, tools, and suppression. Now, of course, before we, before we wrap this up, I have to mention that those aren't everything we use, right? If we're talking about undesirable behavior, yeah, those are the things we use. Hundred percent, right? But we also teach dogs to sit and we use praise, food if the dog likes food, we use guidance.

36:00 — Kati distinguishes rewarding dogs while teaching commands from requiring compliance once those commands are…

We teach dogs to lay down, we teach dogs to go to place. We teach dogs to come back when called. Reward, reward, reward, reward. But what do you do when it comes time to require it? What do you do when the dog now knows it? They know it very well, they know there's a reward and they still go, fuck you. I'm chasing that squirrel across the street. What do you do? Really? What do you do? Well, don't use force, punishment, tools, or suppression, guys. Just use prayers. <laugh>. Um, yeah, no. So, and that's why we got the term balanced trainers, but I don't like that term either.

I don't like it. I don't like any of the terms. I think they're stupid and foolish. I prefer the term efficient, effective, or even good. I'm a good trainer. I'm effective trainer. Um, I don't feel the need to put myself in one of these stupid categories that are supposed to, um, be all-telling about who I am and what my philosophy is and what I do. It's like, no, I do what works. Actually. I do what works and who would've thought it's been working? <laugh>. Uh, we're fair, we're realistic, and we do what works. And we put a lot of emphasis on results, not process.

Um, you know, and some of these folks too, yelling and screaming about science. Well, science is supposed to describe reality. Science is supposed to accurately reveal what's true in reality. So your incoherent screaming about things that you can't show me and you can't prove are meaningless, absolutely meaningless. And I gotta say, just the other day, again, there's a trainer I follow and she's over in the UK, God help her. Um, I watch her because I think she has a really good skillset in certain areas of dog training. And I, I just enjoy seeing what other people are doing and kind of watching what they have going on and what they have to share.

39:00 — Kati expresses frustration with arguments about operant-conditioning quadrants on another person’s page.

But on her page, she and some of her followers have this argue, the ongoing argument about quadrants. Guys, there isn't a quicker way to piss me off than start talking about quadrants.

Like, and I mean, piss me off is, is strong language, right? It is. Like if someone comes to me and mentions negative reinforcement, I don't actually get pissed off at them, but I, I have zero desire to talk about this because it doesn't matter. And also because it's kind of a bunch of baloney, I'm sorry, but it is. Number one, it just doesn't matter, guys. Positive reinforcement, negative punishment, positive, none of it matters. It doesn't matter. Tell me why it matters, what it's called. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you intellectual, it doesn't make you a better trainer.

It makes you honestly, in my opinion, kind of an idiot who's hung up on things that don't matter. Do what works. Do what motivates your fucking dog. How's that? There's a novel idea. <laugh>.

No, no, no. Let's figure out what quadrant this is in. Let's not. And because here's the thing, guys, if you really start thinking about it, there's gonna be overlap. There's gonna be things that theoretically are categorized in one quadrant, but as you really think about it, they would technically be in a different quadrant. And so then you go, well, which one is it? Well, fortunately for you, it just doesn't fucking matter. Doesn't matter. Call it whatever you want. But if we're talking about consequences, most likely it will either increase a response or it will decrease a response.

And that's really all you need to know. And then you should do what works. <laugh>, okay? Um, there might be a little bit of an oversimplification there, but not really.

Of course, there are some things with nuance, but generally speaking, the overarching, um, goal here, right, is do what works. These people get so in the weeds with like their terminology and their science and their quadrants. Okay? Have fun with that. And it's not that I don't know them, guys, it's just that it doesn't matter. So anyways, that was a whole side tangent of mine, <laugh> because it, it just, it started to irritate me when I saw that thread on social media and people arguing about who the idiot is, who doesn't understand the quadrants. You're all idiots.

Like it just doesn't matter.

Like these people think they're so smug and they think they're so much smarter than the people that obviously quote unquote don't understand the quadrants. No, actually you're not doing any better, my friend. <laugh>. Don't get hung up on stuff that doesn't matter, guys. Don't get more hung up on the process than the result. Don't get more hung up on the terminology than how your dog actually responds. Don't do it, <laugh>. Alright, guys, that felt good. Um, thanks for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed it. And hey, I look forward to next time trying to get back on schedule here.

43:00 — Kati considers recording another driving episode and trying a different microphone to improve audio…

I always say that all the time, but um, maybe I'll try another, I'll try another driving episode, see if I can get that quality up to snuff. I think I have a different, uh, different type of microphone I can try. I think this new system I ordered, I think it has a proper lavalier mic. Maybe I'll try that. But anyways, thanks for being here, guys. Thanks for your support. See you next time. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail.

Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time.