Certified Fear-Mongers (Oops, I Mean Dog Trainers)

00:00

Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

00:31 — Kati introduces Diamond Canine’s off-leash obedience, state-of-mind work, behavior training, and puppy training.

Speaker 2: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I am Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training, both for off-leash obedience at nice off-leash reliability and stopping unwanted behaviors like barking, jumping, pulling on the leash, getting into the garbage, all of that stuff, even reactivity, aggression, resource guarding, separation issues, everything, everything, everything. And we especially love doing the more in depth state of mind work with dogs that are nervous, fearful, or super anxious. We also do poppy training. So that's who we are and what we do.

Speaker 2: And this podcast is our way of sharing with you everything that we're seeing and doing. Everything we're learning from the dogs every day, everything we're talking about with our customers, with you guys, or in the, uh, case of today, for instance, sharing with you my thoughts on the stupid posts I see on social media, <laugh>.

Speaker 2: So we can't leave that out. So for some reason Facebook loves to show me, uh, posts from this dog trainer who clearly is a, a purely positive dog trainer. And, uh, I'm not gonna mention her name because I don't need her page to be getting more play right? That's what happens. Um, generally when you give these people attention is they get more attention and, you know, any publicity is good publicity, right? So I'm not gonna do her <laugh>, I'm not even gonna do her the favor of mentioning her name. Um, but one of her more recent posts really fueled my fire.

Speaker 2: So I want talk a little bit about that. Um, and it's funny because if you look at the post, uh, which is sort of in the form of a meme, right? It's really just a picture of a pit bull with a prong collar on, and there's just a message written on the picture.

Speaker 2: And at face value, I don't actually have a problem. I don't have a problem with the image or with the message that's on the image. So I'll just read it to you. It says, ask any dog trainer that you are considering hiring what equipment and training callers they use and why. Then ask if they can train a dog without this equipment. If not, ask why. I actually, actually don't have any problem <laugh> with that message because, um, it doesn't actually say anything overwhelmingly positive or negative about specific methods or philosophies. It simply encourages people to ask specific questions.

Speaker 2: And so I don't actually have a problem with that. Now, if you dive into her actual posts that accompanied the picture, you'd see there are some problems with it. Um, and then if you dive into the comments, um, of course you would see some problems there too.

03:39 — Kati says owners should ask about equipment because they will use those tools long-term.

Speaker 2: But here's the thing. You should ask a dog trainer that you're considering hiring what they use for equipment. I mean, that is going to be a major component in your training program. Obviously, these are gonna be the tools that you're using to communicate with your dog and to facilitate behaviors. And you are gonna have to use them, um, for a long time, if not forever. So why wouldn't you ask about that? Now, when you get into the second piece of this message that says, ask if they can train a dog without this equipment, all right?

Speaker 2: The second part of that phrase, or the second part of that message is ask if they can train a dog without this equipment. I don't have a problem with that question per se, except that it obviously is probably gonna put the trainer that you're questioning in defensive mode.

Speaker 2: 'cause it sounds very, uh, confrontational <laugh>, right? However, the question itself, you know, isn't a particularly, um, bad one. Like, you know, your, your trainer really to be honest should have the skillset to train the dog without specific equipment. 'cause if they don't, then that means they probably don't really understand how a dog learned, right? So if somebody asked me if I can train a dog without an eco or a prong collar, the answer is yes, but why in the fuck am I gonna do that? Like, pardon my English. It's like asking a carpenter, well, can you build a house without a power saw?

Speaker 2: Hmm. It's like, why would I wanna do that <laugh>? So, sure, and let me be clear, like even if you have a great trainer that can do that, okay, first of all, why would they want to? And second of all, it doesn't mean you can like no offense, but training a dog is a skillset. Training a dog without tools that are very effective and efficient requires an even better skillset. Okay? So as trainers, when we're trying to pass the baton over to the owners and have them do all this stuff with their dog,

Speaker 2: It's hard enough for the average person, right? Some people it comes more naturally to than others. Some people it's a breeze. Some people really struggle. And that's what the tools we use that make it very practical to stop unwanted behaviors make you very effective at stopping unwanted behaviors make you very efficient at getting behaviors reliable, even around distractions, getting behaviors reliably, rather. So take those tools away and now you have to find another way to do it. And also, although this isn't explicitly stated in the message, the reason they're obviously asking this or encouraging people to ask this isn't the tools specifically, it's the negative consequences.

Speaker 2: Specifically, they wanna know they're, they're encouraging people to ask, well, can you get a dog without using anything quote unquote aversive? You shouldn't have to use pain or fear. <laugh>, I have news. Yes you do. Yes you do. Um, no, we don't teach new behaviors using those things that would not be effective, right? But these tools that we use, the e call and the prongs caller specifically, which is what this post is targeted at, they give you the ability to be gentle and to be firm,

07:50 — She distinguishes teaching a behavior from making that behavior reliable through negative consequences.

Speaker 2: Right? And although we start out very, very gentle and probably using lots of food and reward and all that stuff too, at some point we're going to hit a ceiling where the dog is as reliable as they are ever going to become unless we introduce negative consequences. And so it also depends on your definition of a trained dog. I mean, if your definition of a trained dog is just teaching them how to do something, then no, we don't need those tools. No, we don't need negative consequences. Rainbows and cupcakes all day long. I can teach your dog to sit, lay down, come when called.

Speaker 2: Here's the thing that's not gonna make them do it when they don't want to <laugh>, right? I can teach 'em how to do it, doesn't mean they're going to do it. So there is a difference between teaching your dog a behavior and then teaching your dog that they are required to do that behavior. Those are two completely different things, my friend. And so once you get, sure, when we're talking about teaching a dog a new behavior, no, we don't need those tools. Nobody needs those tools in most cases anyway.

Speaker 2: However, those tools can still make that process more effective and efficient. And we can talk about that in a minute. However, once your dog knows the behavior and you hit that ceiling where they're as reliable as they're ever gonna get, now you have to teach the dog that the behavior is actually required, right? It's not optional. So how do you do that? So I would like to flip this post around and say, you know, you should ask your trainer what they use for consequences. And if they say, you know, only positive consequences and only rewards or food or whatever, ask them how they teach the dog that the behavior is not optional.

Speaker 2: So that you know you can get that behavior when it matters right around distractions. When there's a safety concern. How do you know your dog will come back from called? How do you teach them that they have to, right? We can teach 'em to do it with food all day long. But how do you teach the dog that they have to? That seems like a good question to me. And they cannot answer that question. The answer will be put in more work, put in more time, put in more patience. Keep your dog on a leash.

Speaker 2: That'll be their answer. Really. Like, you just can't take your dog off leash. Or they'll say, oh, good enough, it comes back half the time. Good enough, right? You're gonna get an answer like that or keep bacon in your pocket or you know, hold chickens or live rabbits or whatever. That's gonna be the answer because they don't have one.

11:22 — She rejects relying on bacon, extra leash time, or inconsistent recalls as off-leash reliability…

Speaker 2: They don't have one. And so <laugh>, when I see posts like this, it just really taps my ass, right? It just really feeds the fire. Because again, like I said at face value, I don't have a problem with that message on there. But we know, especially if you have context and you, and you see the post that accompanied it, you know that the idea is you are supposed to ensure that any trainer you're going to hire doesn't use e callers, doesn't use prong callers, doesn't utilize negative consequences of any kind. And this particular person that made this post, I won't even call her a trainer.

Speaker 2: 'cause in my opinion, I mean, you're not worth your fault as a trainer if you think this. Um, she's certified though <laugh>, which is the, you know, the funny part. So if that gives you any idea what quote unquote certified means in the dog training world, it's really at this point almost something to avoid. 'cause it, it's basically ensuring that they don't know what they're doing or they're lying, right? So I don't wanna accuse all of them of being evil liars, even though I think it's a good percentage.

Speaker 2: There's also such a thing as just blissful fucking ignorance, willful blindness. So I think even the ones that are ignorant, like they know deep down inside, they know, right? But it's easy to just keep pretending if we just put our hand up every time we see anything to the contrary and block it really, really easy to just yell and scream emotional things and not actually take in the information, right? Just choosing to stay blind. Just choosing to stay blind because what they're doing makes them feel good because they get to have what they feel like.

Speaker 2: And I say because I'm being very careful about choosing my words here. I try very, very hard to be precise in my speech. They wanna feel like they have this magical connection with animals and they're somehow virtuous better than the other people on this planet because of it, right? So they get to live in their little la la land and pretend that they are the savior for all quote unquote rescue dogs. Um,

Speaker 3: <laugh>.

Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter how many people tell them, Hey, this tool worked great for me. Or even, Hey, I took your training where you taught my dog to do all these things and all, all I had to do where we worked on it for years, years and years and years. And all I had to do was add a punishment for non-compliance. And now my dog is amazing and can be off leash anywhere. It doesn't matter how many people tell them that. They will just say, that's unnecessary. You shouldn't do that. You're gonna damage your dog, you're gonna damage your relationship.

Speaker 2: The American Association of Veterinary, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Who by the way, vets aren't trainers, right? And they're just gonna repeat all these canned phrases from all these different sources that are considered to be authorities. Authorities on the subject. And they're not. They're not. So the folks you should be listening to are not folks with letters in front of their name, not folks who are famous. None of that stuff matters. Now I'm not saying those things are always bad. I'm sure there are famous people that know what they're talking about. There are YouTube personalities that know what they're talking about.

Speaker 2: I'm sure there are people with letters in front of their name that know what they're talking about. But those things alone do not mean anything. You should be paying attention to people who get results and they can show them and they can speak to them and they can explain

16:22 — She tells owners to prioritize demonstrable results over credentials, titles, fame, and short online…

Speaker 2: What's happening and why and why it's not happening for other people and what's missing. And you should be able to say, geez, this is really consistent. This all fits together, this makes sense and I can see it, right? And if they can't give you that, then you should not be listening to them, right? If someone makes a 32nd video about how to stop something, stop a bad behavior, but then they never show you the result where they no longer need to intervene, then they didn't actually necessarily accomplish anything <laugh>, right? You need to pay attention to that because people just cherry pick stuff and say stuff because it sounds good, because it gets likes, because it gets shares and it's just blatantly false, right?

Speaker 2: And then you see posts like this that are encouraging people to basically be confrontational and not hire trainers that use certain pieces of equipment. And the end result of that really is people just stay stuck. So that's why I have a hard time looking at this and not getting and be like, I don't care. Like they can train dogs however they want. I don't care. I genuinely, I have no problem with that. If someone wants to set up shop and only use treats, good for them, that's fine. In fact, they may even do a great job teaching dogs new behaviors,

Speaker 2: But actively trying to fear monger folks into never completing their training, which is what this is, right? Because they're like, you can never add a negative consequence, don't you do it? 'cause if you do, you're gonna ruin your dog, you're gonna damage your relationship, your dog's gonna hate you, you're gonna traumatize your dog, right? So don't you dare go finish your training. Don't you dare complete it. Don't you dare go make your dog off leash reliable. Well fuck that, okay? Especially the folks that have put in the time, they've been working with their dog for weeks, months, years, and they still can't trust their dog because they were told one time that they should never use a negative consequence.

Speaker 2: And so now their dog is stuck in a crate, stuck on a leash, stuck in the yard, whatever the case may be because of posts like this, right? So I'm not angry that someone uses positive methods. I'm not angry that someone thinks that's all you should do. I'm not angry that someone makes that their whole training rubric, that's foolish. But <laugh>, I'm not angry about it, right? But fear mongering folks into staying stuck is absolutely positively unforgivable in my eyes. And there's no way that you get to be in this industry for 5, 10, 20 years.

Speaker 2: There's no way that you get to be 30, 40, 50 years old and not know the truth. There's no way, like I said, even if they're lying to themselves deep down inside, they know. And I have a real problem with that. I have a real problem with that. So, sure, go ahead. Ask your trainer what tools they use. I think that's great. I, if you wanna ask them if they can train the dog without the equipment, hey, I think that's fine too. However, unless you want to sour your relationship immediately, I would probably be careful how I ask that question,

21:20 — She recommends asking trainers questions respectfully while recognizing that hired trainers set their own…

Speaker 2: Right? Because if you just say, well, can you train a dog without it? I mean, you're basically getting blacklisted as a customer right there, because it sounds like you're just going to be a disagreeable nightmare, right? And no good trainer is going to allow their client to dictate the training because that's stupid, right? Because the whole reason this person's looking for a trainer is because they don't know how to do it <laugh>. So if as a trainer you let your client dictate the methods, the tools and all of that, then it's like, what are you even doing?

Speaker 2: Like what are you even taking their money for? I mean, they could do that without you, which is fine, by the way. DIY is fine, right? But if you come to me, you hire me. That's not DIY. This is our program. This is what we do. This is the tools we use. You don't get to dictate that. These are the tools we are extremely skilled with. These are the tools that historically we have been able to pass on fantastic results to our customers. It's not broken. Why would we fix it? And we're still learning and growing and improving every day.

Speaker 2: But historically, this has been the way that we provide the best results to our customers. And this has been the most practical, efficient, and effective way to influence a dog's behavior, especially off leash, which is so important, right? And we want dogs to be able to be free. We want them to be able to run, but the stakes are just too high. If you can't trust your dog, it could cost them their life. People take off leash, not seriously enough, right? People are way too nonchalant about it. Anything can happen when your dog is off leash.

Speaker 2: You have no control unless you do, right? And we take that very seriously and that's why we use the tools that we use. 'cause it puts all the control in the handler's hands. And we're very skilled at using the tools and we're very skilled at teaching other people how to use the tools. And then they have maximum versatility and flexibility. They have maximum communication. They can stop their dog in its tracks if they need to. There isn't a better way, in my opinion. But regardless, the point was what is the point? <laugh>, what, what even is the point?

Speaker 2: Well, obviously the point in these posts again is fearmongering and demonization actively tearing down trainers who do a good job and get better results than they do the American College of Veterinary behaviorists. Yes, they post a lot of garbage. So it's not their post. Um, but they largely, um, provide this woman with her faulty philosophy. So, um, they, they publicize a lot of <inaudible>. So you can't turn to them for any, any good information. You're not gonna get any there. But that's it, guys. Like that's, that's the gist of today's episode is I'm just ranting about this crap.

Speaker 2: So ask your dog trainer those questions, but you know, if you ask them that way, <laugh>, don't be surprised if you get a hostile response because you gotta understand from our perspective, we're getting hit with this crap all the time, all the time, right? And it's not right for everybody. Like not everyone's comfortable using a negative consequence. Not everyone's comfortable putting a prong collar on their dog, that's fine. No judgment here. But I'm not your trainer, right? We're not for you. I've had people ask me if I offer any programs that are purely positive. No, no, I do not offer any programs that only do half the job and take your money.

Speaker 2: I do not offer that.

Speaker 2: Again, no judgment. Everybody's on their own journey. Journey. A lot of folks like this woman that made this post, I think are often dealing with their own issues from their past, right? Bullies, abuse, things of that nature. And it's not resolved. It is not resolved, you know, but I wouldn't wanna be lying on my deathbed someday in realizing I could have helped all these folks and instead I kept them stuck. <laugh>, I couldn't live with that. Of course. It's just not in my nature to go along with crap because it sounds good, or because everyone else says so.

Speaker 2: And you know, I was listening to Jordan Peterson the other day and he, he said something, you know, and it was just in passing, but everything outta this man's mouth is <laugh> fairly profound. Um, I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was, you know, if you go along with the lies, then you're part of the problem or something to that effect. And, you know, it reminded me of things that I, I have said in the past about this stuff. It's like if you go along with it, if you, you know, if you hide what you do, right?

Speaker 2: You hide the prong call or you hide the e-collar or you take it off when you go certain places or when certain people are around, or you stand in circles and kind of nod your head, um,

28:27 — She argues trainers should openly show their equipment instead of hiding tools that produce…

Speaker 2: Part of the problem, right? So it's, it becomes harder for other people to find the path, right? And what's right and good gets squashed, right? The path to the truth becomes more concealed, right? Because you're going along with the lies and it's just not, it's never been it in my nature to do that. It really sets off my radar when I can see that something that is true, something that is right, is being distorted, is being twisted, is being demonized. And those people are always so loud. Um, but those things motivate me so much. <laugh> so, so much.

Speaker 2: So it just really fuels my passion and it makes me more invested to do more, reach more to do better.

Speaker 2: And you know, I have to say, you know, I'm talking about this one individual who's like speck in an ocean, but there are so many of them. And looking at the comments, I actually, I feel pretty good about the fact that we seem to be, we seem to be making some progress. I see more and more people standing up and saying, actually I don't agree with that, right? So they're not standing up and saying, Hey, I think you're a dumb schmuck and you should shut your mouth. Which is kind of what I wanna say <laugh>.

Speaker 2: But they are standing up and saying, actually I use those tools and they've been fantastic, right? And so usually what we see is we see people standing up and saying something like, well, if you use them properly and you use them the right way, and you know, that's something, that's something, it's still not my cup of tea because I think that goes without saying, right?

Speaker 2: So they're trying to shield against backlash when they do that is all that's happening, right? They're trying to get their difference of opinion, their foot in the door without someone slamming the door on their foot. Um, so they're trying to be very cautious and delicate is what that is. Um, but I mean, it goes without saying like, who's gonna say, well you should use it improperly. Like no one's gonna say that for any tool you have to use a leash properly. You have to use a prong collar properly. You know, when you use hammers to pound in nails, you use, you gotta use the hammer properly, right?

Speaker 2: We don't use hammers to, um, I'm not good at analogies, guys, <laugh>, I'm not good at analogies, right? If you have a nail and a hammer and you hold the nail onto a piece of wood and then you start w whacking it with the handle of the hammer, that's not gonna be really effective, right?

Speaker 2: If you're hitting it super gently, that's not gonna be very effective. If you're hitting it from the side, that's not gonna be super effective, right? If you're just trying to mash it in there with the hammer just pushing on it instead of using a pounding action, that's not gonna be very effective, right? So there are ways to use the tool wrong that aren't gonna work very well, or you could hurt yourself <laugh>, right? Obviously there are right and wrong ways to use tools that is true for every single tool in the universe and nobody sets out to use a tool incorrectly and inefficiently.

Speaker 2: So there's really no need to state that used properly. It's like, yeah, of course, right? No one's making the argument that table saws are bad, even though you can lose a limb, right? And e colors and prong colors really aren't gonna hurt dogs, right? And people aren't going to like mentally, psychologically damage their dog unless they're actually sadistic, in which case they don't need a prong collar or an e-collar. Trust me, they will accomplish their goal of damaging the dog without the tools, right? So it's not the tools, it's the person,

Speaker 2: Right? If you wanna check someone's reflexes, you don't use a hammer, right? A pair of scissors. It can be an amazing tool if you used properly. If not, you could lose a finger. It's like, yeah, we know, like you get to use your tools properly. There's really no need to preface a statement with that. But again, I understand why people do, but I'm just encouraged by the fact that more and more people are at least saying, um,

33:41 — A hesitant owner’s anxious dog learns e-collar and prong conditioning before calmly sitting near…

Speaker 2: I don't think so. Actually. I think, I think there's some problems with what you're saying. I think the tools are actually pretty okay. Like, and that makes me really happy to see that. And as a side note, we actually just completed a private lesson here this afternoon. Uh, these customers are brandy new. This was their first lesson. So we got their dog fitted with the equipment and we were teaching them how to condition their dog to the eco and how to use the prong collar and everything went swimmingly. Um, the dog was picking up on things really, really quickly.

Speaker 2: And even though it's kind of an anxious dog, um, she was very happy to participate and was engaged and wagging her tail and, and she was doing really great. And you know, no, not every dog does that because a lot of dogs are just uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: They're uncomfortable going somewhere new. They're uncomfortable having to do work, they're uncomfortable, you know, everything makes 'em uncomfortable. And so, you know, it's not the tools, it's just that's the dog's personality, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, but this dog was having a pretty good time and was, was doing great. And the reason I'm I'm talking about this is because when we first fitted the dog for their equipment and it brought out the prong caller and I asked them if they had ever used one before, which we talk about in the consultation, right? But that was a long time ago at this point, and I can't even remember, um, if they were familiar with the prong caller or not.

Speaker 2: And the woman admitted, no, she, you know, they had never used one and she actually found them a little bit scary. And um, of course she remembered our phone conversation and we had already talked about the equipment a little bit.

Speaker 2: So she knew she wasn't surprised by it. Um, but you know, she told me that and I totally got it and told her I used to be in that camp too. And I kind of explained to her a little bit about what it did again and I let her, you know, feel it and we put it on the dog and I'll tell you what, they did their lesson and again, everything went swimmingly and they got home and they weren't even home for an hour and they had already sent us a video of their dog doing something that they just never dreamed their dog could do, which was a simple behavior of just keeping her butt on the ground while another dog walked by.

Speaker 2: But that's not something she would've ever done before she was on a harness before she was anxious, she was always pacing, going in circles.

Speaker 2: She gets very excitable when other dogs go by and uh, would pull and it would take some muscle to hang onto her. And not only <laugh> were they not being pulled down the road, but she was sitting, which was wild to them, right? And of course, as dog trainers, like Joyce and I, we just take that for granted. Like we just expect that kind of behavior and it's so easy to get with the tools that we use. It's very easy to get. Um, but other people, they don't understand that until they do it. And then they're kind of blown away.

Speaker 2: Like how different it can be. Like how big of a shift there is when you actually can use your leash to get things from your dog and to influence your dog and to talk to your dog. It is wild, right? And so this dog is already being wired to be a little bit calmer, a little bit more relaxed, a little bit less anxious, and she was sitting there as happy as can be and she was pretty perked up and like her tail was wagging a little bit, which is fine.

36:50 — Kati describes using leash pressure and release to build calm behavior and show owners…

Speaker 2: Um, she fixated like more than I would like, right? If we had her for a board and train. But, um, from their perspective, like it was amazing, right? And I think it's amazing that they are already having such a dramatic um, success, right? One lesson, one lesson they went home and like they can actually easily walk by other dogs and even get their dog to hold a sit, which she would never do before, even when there's not a lot going on. She's the type of dog that just, it's like she has a spring on her butt, she pops up, she's doing circles, walking back and forth, right?

Speaker 2: Head on a swivel, glancing around 'cause she's anxious and like now just a tiny little bit of leash pressure, two fingers and the dog will just sit nicely and just watch the other dog go by. It was fantastic.

Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, I mean, who wouldn't love that, right? And that's why we do what we do and it's why we do it the way we do it, <laugh>. So that's it for today's guide. That's it for my ranting. I'm getting a sore throat, so I'm gonna go thank you for joining me and I look forward to next time. Please, please, please send your questions, comments, suggestions to Kati, Kati at Diamond Canine. That's Diamond, C-A-N-I-N-E, Kati at Diamond Canine dot com. Would love, love, love to hear from you. Always looking for new things to talk about, think about rant about <laugh>.

Speaker 2: So hurry up and get those thoughts over to me. Again, thanks for joining me guys, and I look forward to next time. Bye.