Your Dog Should “Want” To Listen To You, Mmkaaaay?

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Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everyone, thanks for joining me today for another episode of the Off Leash and Unfiltered podcast. I'm doing this episode from home, uh, it's evening and I'm working on dinner and placing dogs at the same time, <laugh>.

So if you hear any unusual noises, um, that's why. One of the noises you might hear is Bella snapping at Niblet. <laugh> Bella's on place. She's doing great. This is her second long place. Um, last night she did about two and a half hours on her place, caught in the evening, and now she has been there for probably half an hour and she's gonna stay there while I do this, this podcast episode.

So I may have to stop and address it if she makes a mistake, but she did super last night. Um, so I actually don't think she will. However, Niblet is fascinated with her as he is with all dogs and wants to do the Niblet thing, sniffing the eyes, which she's not a fan of, and she will kinda tell 'em off a little bit, um, which is fine, but I'm gonna advocate for her <laugh> if I see, if I see him doing that. Um, and part just, they don't learn very fast, <laugh>, they're, it's like dumb as a post.

Um, but yeah, that could happen. So that's what we're doing right now. Um, I looked for some material earlier to inspire a conversation here. One-sided conversation of me, myself, and I <laugh>. You guys, feel free to chime in. Okay, we got fan mail, we got email. You can text me 2 0 7 5 7 7 5 9 4 1.

Um, by all means, send in your comments, send in your questions, um, and I'll address them on the next episode. Um, but until you do that, it's just gonna be me, myself, and I here. So you get to hear what I think and not what anyone else has to say. <laugh> Um, anyway, what I came across, um, is, is something that hit home because again, super common, right? So the stuff I like to talk about is the stuff that is prevalent, is the stuff that is common, is the stuff that I'm hearing from my own clients in group class and, um, in our one-on-one, one-on-ones, our go-home lessons and things of that nature.

03:00 — Kati describes the belief that dogs should listen willingly, not because they have to…

And in my consultations, um, and this is a really, really common thing, which is, you know, that your dog shouldn't listen to you because they have to, they shouldn't listen to you because there's no other option or because they're scared of the consequences, right? So people will say that and then they'll say, your dog should listen to you because they want to, right? And if you trained them properly, they would want to. And we see this especially a lot in the horse world too. Um, so I had horses for a while, I don't have any right now.

Um, but my daughter's taking lessons. And so we spend some time at the barn and I mean, they're great there. We don't really run into this stuff there, but, um, certainly online, the keyboard warriors, social media, it's like, eh, you know, horses can do no wrong. Everything that goes wrong is the human's fault. Um, the horse is always supposed to love doing what they're doing. And if they're not doing what you want them to do, then it's all your fault. You did something wrong. And trying to make the horse do things they don't want is wrong and evil.

And obviously the horse is in pain, like, and just all this horse shit <laugh>, um, to put it bluntly, right? And we see the same thing in the dog world. Like, your dog should want to listen to you. And I've, I think I've said this once before, but it's been a long time before I became a dog trainer.

Um, my first dog that I really went out and bought as an adult, I still lived with my parents, but it was, I took responsibility for the dog. I paid for the dog. I went out and got the dog. This was like my first dog that was mine, um, was a Rottweiler and she was incredible. And that's why I fell in love with the Rottweiler. Um, <laugh>, the next one I got was not as incredible <laugh>, but she was an incredible teacher. So did not ruin my love of the Rottweiler. Um, but that's another whole, that's another whole can of worms for another day.

Um, but she was, she was like my best friend. I mean, I loved this dog. And this dog was there through some seriously transformational periods in my life because she lived to be 14 years old and I was 18 when I got her. And so, you know, the stuff that happens between the time you turn 18 and what, 32?

Yeah. Um, a lot happens. A lot happens. And she really was like my best friend. And I loved this dog dearly, but I wasn't a dog trainer. <laugh> I was not a dog trainer. Best I had was some, um, Cesar Millan knowledge. 'Cause I used to be a huge fan of Cesar Millan and watched a lot of that, and that did help. Uh, but anyway, this dog would not have come back when I called her. Um, you know, if she, unless you had, if you had a ball, you were probably good, right? But I mean, the only time she would've ever been off leash is like out in our yard.

Um, and for a portion of the time that we had her when I was real young, our yard, it was a good-sized yard, but we had neighbors and stuff. So I mean, if she saw them out there and you let her out there off leash, she was probably gonna leave and she wasn't gonna come back.

And I just, anyway, I remember reading, I used to be a huge fan of this. It's so corny, you guys. I used to love reading the Dog Fancy magazines. Um, I was really into dogs, guys, when I was a young adult, so I watched all the dog shows, um, memorized all the breeds and their characteristics, and, you know, <laugh> watched all the judges and read the magazines and all, all the things. So anyway, I read an article in this magazine, and I remember this quote, and I can't remember who the author is that said it. Doesn't matter, but the quote was something along the lines of, if your dog doesn't come back to you, shame on you.

And they were implying that your dog didn't wanna come back to you because you were in some way bad or had mistreated it. Um, and at the time I believed that, and now it really, really pisses me off a lot, <laugh> because, um, it, that obviously couldn't be further from the truth.

08:00 — Kati says it is normal for a dog not to return when called unless…

It's totally normal for your dog not to come back, um, unless they have to. And so that's what we're gonna talk about today, because I think there are lots and lots of people in that same boat where, because you get hammered, guys, with this narrative over and over and over again, right? Like every internet search you do, every article you read, every idiot po purely positive trainer that you talk to, and I'm sorry, I don't mean to, like, insult other dog trainers. Um, there's actually nothing wrong with being a purely positive dog trainer, assuming that you admit your limitations, right?

But most of them don't, like 99% of them don't. They're gonna say they're, you know, they train with purely positive methods only because that's all you need. And no, that's not true <laugh>. That, that's just not true. Unless your goal is to not have reliable obedience, then sure, that's all you need. Um, and if your goal is not to stop any behaviors that you don't like, then, you know, by all means, whatever.

Um, but that's what people hear over and over and over again. And so we just kind of accept it as the truth. And when someone says something, not just that, you know, you're, you're not training correctly. Like you haven't put in enough work, you haven't put in enough practice, you haven't made it pleasurable enough for the dog to listen to you. But they also just imply that, like, you are a bad owner, right? You're a bad person, you're a bad owner, your dog doesn't like you, your dog doesn't think you're fun, you've mistreated your dog in some way.

Like, it's just really crappy. Like it's a crappy thing to say, it's a crappy thing to make someone feel. Um, and I'm here to tell you that if you have ever been in those shoes, you're not alone. And it's just complete bullshit. And now I know that now, right?

So hindsight is 2020. Um, and you know, obviously I wish I had done back then the things that I knew to, to do now, but the fact that I know them now is amazing. It's been an incredible journey, um, from Rottweiler to Rottweiler, <laugh>, getting where I am now. Um, but here's the thing, when someone says your dog should want to listen to you, your dog should want to come back, first of all, you have to define the word want because that is highly debatable. So what do they mean? Want, right? Even if I'm using an eco to correct my dog for non-compliance, if they don't listen to me, if I call my dog and they just get up and they come over when I call them, even if it's because they know there's a negative consequence, do they not want to get up and come to me because I'm not physically dragging them there?

11:00 — Kati questions whether dogs must always enjoy listening to their owners.

So they are making a choice to move their feet. Is that not wanting to come back? Um, I think most of the time what they mean when they say want to is that your dog should enjoy it, right? Your dog should enjoy listening to you. Your dog should always enjoy doing the things you ask them to do. Um, they should always enjoy coming back to you. They should love you so much and have so much fun when they're with you that when you call your dog, they should always come back on enjoyment alone. It's all that's needed.

Well, first of all, why is it bad to have to do things that you don't enjoy? Is that bad for people? Should we all only do things we enjoy? Because that's the direction our society is moving. We all know those folks, right? That, like, every, they, they have changed the term happiness now really to mean, like, every moment of every day is pleasurable, right? So if you are not, if every moment of the day isn't sparking joy for you, then you're not happy. That means you're not happy now. Um, and you shouldn't do anything that doesn't make you happy, that doesn't bring you enjoyment or pleasure.

Everything that feels good, sounds good, tastes good, those are the things you should do. And anything that doesn't feel good, you shouldn't do that. That's bad, right? And that we're taking these principles, it's bad enough that we're applying them to dogs, but you got people trying to live this way now too, and it's a flipping mess.

Um, <laugh>, but no, you're, you're, it's okay for your dog to do things sometimes that they don't enjoy. It's not going to kill them. In fact, it's going to make them better just like it does for us. <laugh>. It's going to make your dog better. It's going to teach coping skills and patience and tolerance with being inconvenienced. Um, it's going to build, um, the sense of, you know, I'd say pride, but it's kind of over-humanizing it a little bit, right? But your dog knows when they do the right thing, they know when you're happy with them.

14:00 — Kati says dogs can succeed at tasks they do not enjoy and will not…

Um, it builds the sense of, "I did it. I was victorious. I succeeded." Right? So your dog gets to experience that. Um, it's okay for your dog to do things that they don't enjoy, and it's totally normal for your dog not to enjoy listening to you sometimes, right?

And some dogs, it's most of the time because some dogs are just kind of assholes, guys. <laugh> Some dogs are very independent. They very much wanna do their own thing, and they very much don't like to do things that they've been asked to do. And guess what? It's just too bad because you're living in a human world. You're probably living in a human household. And if you're going to be safe, both their safety, other people's safety, then you're going to have to do what you're told even when you don't feel like it, even when you don't enjoy it.

And that's not just okay, it's necessary. It's necessary, and it just isn't realistic. So the narrative is that if you do your training correctly, if you put in enough work, right? Unless you're too lazy, if you put in enough work, your dog will suddenly love listening to you, right? The narrative is if your dog knew what you wanted, they would always do it because they want you to be happy and they want to please you. Your dog wants to be good. No, your dog doesn't want any of that shit. Your dog wants to be a dog.

Your dog wants to chase the squirrel, go say hi to the other dog or attack the other dog or whatever your dog is like, right? They wanna go eat outta the cat box. That's your dog. They want to eat the cat shit more than they want to make you happy. And that's normal. It doesn't make your dog a bad dog. It makes them a dog. It doesn't mean your dog doesn't like you. <laugh> It means they're a dog. So it just isn't realistic to think that your dog is going to love doing everything that you ask them to do.

Now, there is a spectrum here, right? So some dogs, they do get a sense of pleasure out of the little victory dance, right?

You know what I mean? You get the dog, um, that when, when you call 'em back or you ask them to do a trick or whatever it is, they do it and then you get excited, you praise them, you give them some love, some affection, and they a treat. They get really excited and squirmy and oh my gosh, and they're wiggly and, right, they get excited by that. They like it, they enjoy it, okay? It doesn't mean your dog wants you to be happy, by the way. I hate to harp on that, but your dog really doesn't care if you're happy, right?

They just, they enjoy the energy and the excitement and the praise and the fun and, and the energy and all the things that come with it. But your dog just simply doesn't have the ability to even know what happiness is, right? A kid, sure, a kid can understand, mommy is happy, mommy's not happy. I don't, you know, I feel bad when mommy's sad. Like, yeah, your dog, no, not so much, sorry.

18:00 — Kati describes a spectrum from dogs that enjoy praise after recall to dogs that…

But there's a spectrum. So you get the dogs that do get that sense of pleasure when they come back and there's a little victory routine, right? And then you get the dogs that just don't give a shit. And most dogs are somewhere in the middle. And guys, the problem with the middle is that means you're in a tug of war with the environment all of the time. And that's where most dogs are. They're in the middle, right? So you also get the dogs who you ask them to do something, you get the behavior from them, you praise them, you try to feed them, they don't want the food, they pull their head away.

When you try to touch 'em, you praise them, and they just turn around and they look the other way. They're just like, "Fuck you." Right? We get those dogs, and you know what?

They train up just fine. <laugh> Because it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. But most dogs are somewhere in the middle. And dogs that are in the middle, which is most dogs, they'll learn to do the things. And this is what we hear all the time. All the time. If I got a dime for every time I heard this phrase, these few words, I would be, I'd be wealthy, is, "He listens pretty good until… She listens all right unless she sees…" <laugh> Right? So, yeah, great. So you taught your dogs some commands and they know them and they will do them.

If, if it's kind of the best thing going on at the time, if there's nothing else going on that's more exciting or unsettling, that's worth throwing into, it's not just all about, um, temptations. Sometimes dogs get nervous and flighty too, and that, that plays a role. Um, but that's what we hear time and time and time and time again. Unless, until, if he sees, and it's, it's like, okay, well, that's where you'll stay if we're relying on making your dog enjoy, enjoying listening and enjoying coming back. So explain to me what's going to change that.

21:00 — Kati describes owners spending hours practicing recall without realizing the limits of that practice.

How? I, I wanna know. 'Cause people take on this challenge all the time. They don't realize they're doing it, but they take on this challenge all the time, right? They go out, they spend, I've met these people, hours and hours and hours and hours, and they go out and they're working with their dog, and they're working with their dog and they're working with their dog, right? They have reactive dog on a leash. They're walking by, they see another dog. Now's their moment, right? Make the dog enjoy not reacting. Get the food quick, the food, the food, the food, the food, the food, right?

And most of the time, sometimes they can get by without anything bad happening, right? But if you run out of food, or if the gap just gets too small between the dogs and the dog gets too aroused, they go to crazy town, right? You're calling your dog from a hundred feet away at the park and there's another dog running by. There's a bike, there's a squirrel.

You've called your dog thousands of times where there's not a lot going on. And your dog comes back and he's so happy and his tail's wagging and you give him the treat, nice, a good boy, and you have a little party. And then that evening you're just like, hey, we're gonna, let's go to the park. We had a great day, we had a good training day. My dog loves coming back to me. We're gonna go to the park. And you're at the park and you're throwing the ball around, your dog's running around and he's chasing the ball.

And then he is sniffing everything. And then you see it, you see the two squirrels chasing each other, and they're running toward the road.

Then what? Then you call your dog and he looks at you and he looks away and he keeps running after the squirrels. Okay? And then hopefully you're not scraping your dog off the pavement, right? And they would tell you, like, these idiots that promulgate these ideas, they would tell you that you're just not, you're not doing it right. You're not doing it enough, or just shame on you. Like that works too <laugh>. But it's not, it's not you. I mean, it's you in the sense that you just haven't provided your dog with the correct training.

Um, but you're not crazy. 'Cause that's what you're being told. That's what you're being told.

24:00 — Kati says rewards alone can become a bribe when a dog prefers another option.

So we're all motivated by things we want, and there's nothing wrong with using that. Um, but if that's all you've got, first of all, it turns into bribery. And bribery means take your pick. Which one do you want more? That's what, that's how bribes work. Um, we're all motivated for things that we want, but we're just as motivated, if not more motivated by things we want to avoid. And that factors in to every decision we make, right? I might love salami, I do <laugh>, but if it gives me terrible heartburn, I'm probably gonna choose not to eat it.

I'm probably gonna choose not to eat it. Um, so things we dislike, things that we don't wanna experience are very powerful motivators. I use the getting up early example a lot because I'm not a huge morning person. If you've ever tried to converse with me in the morning, you may have noticed <laugh>. Um, but it's like my daughter goes to school nearly an hour away. We have to get up at the ass crack of dawn, and I gotta get her to get up, which is hard enough. And then I gotta get her to get her stuff together, get herself dressed, brush her teeth, and eat breakfast.

So I'm not stopping at Dunkin' Donuts to wait 22 minutes for a bagel.

Anyway, that's our morning. Now I'm exhausted in the morning, <laugh>, I usually get to bed too late and then I don't sleep well and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I'm not here to bitch about my sleeping habits, but you know, I'm tired and I've got, you know, house full of dogs I have to take care of. I've got, you know, five boarding dogs. I've got my own two dogs. I've got my daughter and I'm trying to get the dogs not just taken care of, but then I gotta like pack half of them into the car to go to the training set.

And we're driving an hour to school. All, all this, this stuff's happening. But anyway, <laugh> all, I'm going off on a tangent here. Um, feels good. Get <inaudible>. Um, sorry guys. Anyway, my alarm goes off in the morning.

There is nothing to me that sounds better than just dropping that cell phone in a glass of water, going back to sleep. <laugh>, I have these nice fleece sheets right now on the bed. You guys, you can't use these in the summer 'cause you'll sweat like a hog, but they're so soft and they feel so warm. Like right now with it getting cold out, my house is freezing already. It feels amazing, right? There's nothing I want more than to just stay in bed. So why don't I, why don't I do that? That's what feels good.

That's what I want. That's what I'm motivated for. I am not motivated to get up. I'm not motivated to get ready. I'm not motivated to hound my daughter to get ready. I'm not motivated to drive and go out in the cold and into the car and drive an hour to school and all these things. I don't wanna do it. So why do I do it? Well, because if I don't, there's a price to pay, right? So punishment and negative consequences doesn't always mean somebody's beating you guys. It means that we always weigh our options. There are always pros and cons.

28:00 — Kati argues that motivation involves more than desirable outcomes and does not require harsh…

And if all you have is pros, that ain't gonna work. That's not reality. It's not how reality works. It's not how anybody or anything works, right?

Doesn't always mean someone's kicking you down the stairs, which is <laugh>, which is what they want you to think, right? 'Cause they have synonymized, is that a word? Synonymized. It is now punishment and abuse. And they are not the same. We're not taking out our anger on the dog. We're not injuring the dog. We're not damaging the dog in any way. We're not causing any kind of harm. They'll say there's harm, right? But it's all like harm down the road that you can't see right now. <laugh>, okay? Um, they're all psychic. Um, yeah. And if at any point, like your dog starts farting sideways, it's because you used punishment that one time.

Well, there's, there's a price to pay. If you don't, hey, no, we just got, um, Bella start chewing on her place cot. She's bored. That's the goal. So that's, that's a good thing. It just means we weigh our options and we're weighing the thing we want and how much we, so in our brain, your brain is literally going, this is how much I value this thing and this is how much I value this thing, the thing I want, the thing I wanna avoid. And it, it's due, it's weighing, it's actively weighing them and then it makes a decision.

And so again, if you've only got one side, like how do you think that's gonna go? Now again, you have a spectrum of dogs, right? Some of them get so much enjoyment from that victory dance. That's what I call it. I call it whatever you want. But like that pleasure center gets struck at a much higher level when they come back and they get all the, yay, good job, good boy, whatever. Obviously you can see how you would get differing amounts of mileage out of different dogs, right? Yes. Those dogs are going to perform better with positive only training than the dogs that are just giving you the finger the whole way all the time and aren't motivated by anything.

They don't want you to touch 'em, they don't really care about your praise. They don't care, care about anything. Um, they're independent. They wanna do their own thing. And that's the end of it. Then yes, you can see how one end of that spectrum is going to perform better with positive only, but perform better doesn't mean they're trained. And that's where the confusion comes in, right? And that's why everyone that comes to see me says, oh, well, positive reinforcement just wasn't enough for my dog. I just think my dog needs something a little different. No, they all do.

They all have brains that operate more or less the same way. I'm not saying they're identical. Same principles. They're all weighing their options. Guys, all the dogs, I don't care who your dog is, they're weighing their options. They have different triggers, they put different values on things. Um, different motivation levels, different. They're motivated by different things. So yeah, a dog that loves coming back, like most of the time, a dog that loves seeing the energy and the affection, yes, they are going to come back more often with positive only training than the dog at the other end of the spectrum.

Who's a dick? <laugh>

Right? Then obviously that makes sense. But here's the thing. Even the dog that's like, yeah, I came back, I got a treat, I got pets. Woo hoo. Even that dog, there's going to be the, unless until that doesn't go away, there's no dog that that doesn't exist for. There's always something. There is a trigger somewhere where your dog will change their mind because you don't have the, I want to avoid this. It's not built into your training. It's not there. That is a huge gap in training. There is no un unless you, right, there is no downside, there's never a downside.

33:00 — Kati says a dog may ignore a request when it knows there is no…

There's never a downside. Your dog knows that. And you will run into the scenario where your dog goes, well, fuck it. There's no downside.

They is my day. It's gonna happen. And for most people, it happens pretty regularly whether they admit it or not. Um, but that is why, and I, you know, these tangents, it's like, I hope it makes sense. Like I hope hearing it in such a common sense way, um, relating it to things that you ex you personally might experience like day in and day out, makes you go, oh yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. Because these people that are entrenched in these weird ideological beliefs, um, what they do is they spend all of their time coming up with these weird, obscure or complex like, um, strategies and, and methods and techniques, and they give 'em even like these weird fancy names.

Um, and then it'll work. It's just a bunch of bologna. Like none of it works. It's crazy to me. And people eat it up, man. And I mean, it's time, it's, you know, and the thing is, the people that know better, like most of them don't dare to say anything. Um, even the smart people that know better, it's like if they're doing it, they hide it, right? They got the bandana over the e-collar or the bandana over the prong collar or, um, they don't put the stuff on if they're going to the vet or you know, if their mom's coming over, their aunt or whoever, whoever the judgy person is, um, right?

Or always looking for, well, what do you say to someone? And it's like, tell 'em to mind their business.

How many dogs have they trained? Right? Because the other thing is these people, it's like, well, my dog, blah, blah, blah. Well, great, no one cares. Like, no one gives a shit. Like, that's wonderful. I'm happy for you and your dog. What does that have to do with me and my dog? Nothing. And like I said, also, mm, they're wrong. They're wrong. And I would love nothing more than if you have one of these folks in your life who like, well, their dog is so great, right? And they didn't have to do that. Throw one little, one little distraction at 'em probably ain't gonna take much, right?

37:00 — Kati calls reluctance to return normal and surmountable, rather than a barrier to training.

And that's if they even dare to take their dog off a leash, 'cause they probably don't.

Um, but yeah, your dog not enjoying everything you asked him to do, not wanting to come back, normal, healthy and surmountable. That just plays no role, like in our training at all. It makes no difference. So I talked about that spectrum, where some dogs are at this end where they, they love all the praise when they come back. And then you get the dogs at the other end who just really don't care how you react when they come back. They want, they want nothing to do with you. It doesn't matter where dogs are on that spectrum.

We train the same way. And in the end, they all learn to listen pretty much across the board. Guys, I've had two dogs that I can think of that we really couldn't teach much to <laugh>, right? And we never got to the point of like reliable, 'cause we really couldn't teach 'em anything. Two out of what, probably well over a thousand dogs at this point. Two. And they weren't board-and-train dogs, um, because their behavior was so abnormal and, um, serious in nature that we start with private lessons, um, which we do often. We offer private lessons, but those dogs don't normally come home with me, especially right away.

Um, but aside from those two, they all learn like we've, we have never failed to be able to create a reliable dog.

And that's how it should be. And one last thing, like the people, the folks that are promulgating all this crap about, you shouldn't need to do this, you shouldn't need to do that, you know, positively. And your dog should wanna come back. And oddly enough, they can never really seem to show their work. They can never show it in the real world. They can talk about it, right? 'Cause everything out of their mouth is just theoretical. It's like they, they're living in a fantasy. And as much as they talk about it, there's just a complete lack of visual evidence for some reason.

I mean, it's like trying to hunt the Bigfoot, right?

Sasquatch training <laugh>. All right guys, I'm going off the rails. <laugh>, uh, thanks for joining me and, uh, ooh, ready for a glass of wine after that one. Thanks for joining me and I will see you right back here for the next one. Bye. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time.