The Bain Of My Existence—Uncontrolled Off-leash Dogs

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I am Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize mainly in eco training, both for off-leash obedience and behavior modification, meaning we help people stop all those unwanted behaviors. Um, everything from simple stuff like leash pulling, barking, jumping up on people, um, to more serious stuff like reactivity, aggression, resource guarding, separation anxiety, and all that fun stuff. Um, and we also do poppy training. So that's who we are and what we do. And this podcast is our way of sharing everything we know and do, uh, with you.

Speaker 1: Uh, and we're usually talking about stuff that we're talking about with our clients every single day, uh, because we know if that's what they want, it's probably what other people need too. Um, so anyway, I recently, um, asked, asked my followers, you know, what I could talk about, um, on the podcast.

Speaker 1: And, uh, one of, I, I got some fantastic suggestions, um, from somebody and I, I planned to cover all of them. And, uh, the first one I thought was worth going after was how to handle other off leash dogs. Uh, 'cause this is just such a thorn in my side, <laugh>, right? It is for everybody. That's, that's exactly why she's asking, uh, to talk about this thing, um, because it's a thorn in everybody's side. So once your dog is trained, you know, and I say that like they're ever really done training, but once your dog is trained to a reliable level and you trust them off leash, like that's fantastic, you know, but you can train your dog until you're blue in the face.

02:00 — Kati calls uncontrolled off-leash dogs a common thorn that persists even when your own…

Speaker 1: Um, and it just doesn't help you that much with other off leash dogs because you can't control the other dogs. Um, it is like the bane of my existence, <laugh> off leash dogs.

Speaker 1: Uh, and it seems like every other day someone's telling me that they were charged or attacked by an off leash dog. Um, so it's a real problem. We all are aware of that and, you know, we can try to get like leash laws enforced, but the, the bottom line is it's just never gonna be perfect. And there are all, even if that happens there, you're still gonna run into these issues. You're still gonna run into these dogs and these people that can't control their dogs. And it's pretty common, right? And probably even a lot of my clients will tell you they used to be those people, um, because you just don't know what you don't know.

Speaker 1: And <laugh>, sorry, you can hear my puppy in the background with his a little squeaky toy. Um, you don't know what you don't know, and ecos are like the best kept secret.

Speaker 1: They really are, which is part of the reason I do this podcast. Um, the narrative out there really is that the way you teach your dog to come back is you just bribe them. Like that's the advice out there. And so that's what everybody does. And obviously the problem with that is that it doesn't work <laugh>, right? So it might work for some dogs, um, but it's, you know, if there's a distraction that's tempting enough, it's not gonna work. You're always in a tug of war with the environment if you're relying on a bribe. Uh, so, you know, a lot of dogs aren't even into food, and if they are even raw meat, like they're gonna turn their nose up at it if they're excited about another dog.

Speaker 1: Uh, and that's just normal. So what happens most of the time is, is you go out and you're out with your dog and you run into another off leash dog and you don't want a collision.

Speaker 1: You don't wanna find out how the dogs are gonna get along. There's no need to do that. There's no reason to do that. You also don't know the other dog's intention. Um, and so then you, you know, hopefully if you, if you're running into someone who has a little bit of common sense and courtesy, they'll at least try to recall their dog. But they almost never succeed. Almost never. It's like, it's breathtaking when you see someone call their dog and they come back to them <laugh>. It's absolutely breathtaking. I ran into a trained dog a couple weeks ago outside of my daughter's dance studio, where I, I will often take dogs there when I go to pick her up and I can work them in the parking lot where it's really busy.

Speaker 1: And I saw a guy get out of his car with an off leash dog in this busy parking lot, and I said, oh my God, here we go. Uh, but much to my surprise, he told the dog to sit and the dog sat and it stayed there. Uh, and I was, I was really impressed. 'cause he <laugh> he very rarely run into those dogs. Like that's not who you're running into on the beach and on the trail most of the time.

Speaker 1: So, you know, they'll try to recall their dog and of course they'll fail and the dog won't come back, uh, because they're too excited about your dog. And then you don't know what's gonna happen. So, you know, the question is, so what do you do? Like, what do you do when you see an off leash dog? And I don't wanna make it like, uh, you know, I don't wanna turn this into like off leash. Dogs are the boogeyman and you should be terrified, but really they're the boogeyman and you should be terrified <laugh>. So,

06:00 — Approaching dogs create uncertainty because owners cannot know the dog’s intentions or reliably control…

Speaker 1: You know, 'cause the thing is you just don't know. You don't know what the other dog's intent is. You don't know what's gonna happen. There's no way to know that. And even if your dog has been good with other dogs in the past, they might not be with this dog because you don't know this dog. You don't know if they're rude or pushy or you don't know if they're a homicidal maniac. They might be. And the scarier piece is their owner doesn't know either. So probably my top most hated phrase is, don't worry, he's friendly, right?

Speaker 1: <laugh>, you're, you're like 50 yards away from somebody. Their dog is charging right up to you in your space. You don't know anything about this dog or these people and you just hear someone yelling from a football field away or whatever. Don't worry, he's friendly. Um, but here's the sad truth. They don't know that. They don't know that. And that might sound really kind of cocky or condescending of me to say, but it is absolutely true because first of all, there are very few dogs that are gonna be friendly to every dog in every situation, right?

Speaker 1: So to say he's friendly and that there's nothing to worry about,

Speaker 1: They're literally telling you that there's nothing your dog could do to set their dog off. And that's just stupid. 'cause I don't care how friendly or social or happy go lucky your dog is, they still have a threshold for snapping. It's a dog, right? So what if your dog doesn't like other dogs and is pushy and rude or any other number of things, right? That could then trigger their dog to do behavior they haven't seen before.

Speaker 1: But the bottom line is people really just don't know. They'll see, there'll be signs of their dog not liking social interactions or not being good at social interactions, uh, for years. And they will miss them all. And it's not until their dog puts holes in another dog or vice versa, <laugh>, that they go, oh, well I've never seen him do that before. Uh, so, so, so common guys. So I'm not trying to pick on people or say that they're stupid or that I know their dog better than they do. Um, but I do understand the nature of a dog better than a lot of other people do.

Speaker 1: Um, so people, they categorize or judge their dog based on what they see with their dog themselves at home and what they think they see with other dogs out in the world.

Speaker 1: But the fact is, they might be missing a lot of stuff that's actually important. And then you hear the dog snapped, the dog turned, or the, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's rarely the case. So, and a good example of that, uh, I've talked about this a lot, my husband, he was scheduled to go into somebody's house to work on their piano and he didn't even make it through their gate into their actual yard. He could see that their front door was open. And so he just kind of peeked over the fence and yelled, hello, and their dog came bombing out their open front door into the yard over the gate and ripped off a big piece of his upper lip.

10:00 — Kati’s husband was bitten before entering a client’s yard when a dog charged through…

Speaker 1: No joke. But here's, here's my point. If you had asked those people, geez, nib it, come on. He's squeaking so much <laugh>, he never plays with that toy either. If you had asked those people five minutes before that incident, they would've told you that their dog didn't bite.

Speaker 1: So I want you to think about that. They absolutely would've said that a hundred percent, um, in the guise of veterinarian who should be intimately aware of behavioral cues leading up to an event like this. Um, but people they don't know, okay? They don't know what they don't know. So, ah, he's friendly doesn't mean anything. So for that reason, you know, I don't wanna panic. Like I said, I don't want it to be the boogeyman when you, when you see an off leash dog, but it is a good idea to know where you stand on the issue, right?

Speaker 1: So if you're like me, you're not interested in your dog meeting strange dogs because there's zero benefit to that. There just isn't any, but there's lots of risk. So why, why go there, right? And it's also a great opportunity to rehearse any obedience that you've taught your dog, um, and rehearse getting your dog to resist impulses and engage with you in the face of distraction. So it's a valuable opportunity when an off leash dog comes along in a lot of ways. No nibble needed to be reprimanded. He's getting pushy, he's frustrated and wants to get out of his little pen,

Speaker 1: Um, <laugh>. But anyway, so what do you do?

Speaker 1: You need to have a plan of action. So you need to know where you stand on the issue. And so I'm gonna talk about where I stand on the issue and what I would do, right? So, and then you have to have, you already need to know in your mind what it looks like, what you would say and what you would do. Because I'll tell you what, if you're just going out and hoping for the best, okay? And you're hiking down your trail or along the beach or wherever you are, and then all of a sudden someone appears, you're gonna get tense, you're gonna get nervous, you're gonna be trying to watch everything and evaluate everything and panicking and wondering if you should call your dog or if you should tell them to call their dog or what that dog's gonna do.

Speaker 1: And you're gonna be trying to evaluate the other dog and what their intention is. Let me make this easy for you, <laugh>. If it was me, I go out into the world and I know exactly where I stand on the issue and I know exactly what I would say and what I would do.

Speaker 1: So I don't want my dog or any dog I'm out with to interact with a strange dog. Now if it does happen again, I'm not gonna panic. It'll probably be okay. And we're gonna hope that that's the case. However, we're gonna try to avoid having that happen. And so I am right away gonna call my dog to me if he's not with me, right? And if the other dog keeps running toward us, which they probably will, I'm gonna yell to the person assuming I can see a person. Sadly, sadly, sometimes you can't. And I'm gonna ask them to recall their dog at that point.

14:00 — Call your dog close immediately, then tell the other owner to recall their dog…

Speaker 1: It does not matter what they do, it does not matter what they say. I am going to protect my dog and my dog's space at all costs, and I'll do whatever I have to do to keep their dog away from my dog. Uh, now let's just say I don't ask them to recall their dog because everything just happened so quickly. I'm still gonna protect my dog's space. So I just wanna make it clear that if for any reason you don't get to ask that person to recall their dog, that doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: People have a right to go out on trails to the park, to the beach and not have a strange loose dog run up on them in their space. And I understand accidents happen and we'll talk about that. But you are never in the wrong to protect your dog's space, ever, ever, ever, unless you are inside of a dog park, which is intended for off leash dogs to harass each other. <laugh>, unless you're inside a dog park where you're voluntarily signing up for that, you have a right to claim your space and your dog's space. Not to be mean, not to be rude, not to be antisocial, but because that's just your policy.

Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of dogs are probably happy go lucky and friendly and just wanna say hi. And maybe your dog would even be fine with that. It's not the point, right? Because if you make this about making a judgment call and assessing the situation, it's going to one, be more stressful and two way more risky. Because I'm a dog trainer, I've been doing this for years, I still can't tell you what another dog's intention is. Yeah, sometimes there are obvious signs,

17:00 — Kati advises against assessing another dog’s intentions on the fly because even experienced handlers…

Speaker 1: Right? But we're not mind readers either. We see a dog running at us and dogs don't always display the normal body language that's typical. Either I see a dog running at us, I don't know.

Speaker 1: I don't know if they're gonna come up and be really soft and submissive and friendly and playful, or if they're gonna run up to us and just chop my dog in the face. I don't know. There is no way to know. That's kind of the point. So you don't wanna be in that situation and trying to decide, is this okay? Is this okay? No, it's just not okay. It's never okay for any dog of any size of any temperament to make contact with you and your dog or intimately invade your bubble unless you invited it.

Speaker 1: It's not okay. Now, dogs running at you guys. Maybe you asked the person to recall their dog. Maybe you didn't. Maybe they tried to recall their dog, maybe they didn't.

Speaker 1: But the next problem is, regardless of any of that, the dog is probably still approaching you <laugh>. And so at that point, what you need to do is try to position your dog somewhat behind you. And this might be easier or difficult depending on your dog. So if you have a reactive dog, that might be very difficult. Um, if you have a, a really big strong dog, it might be difficult, but you just do your best. If you can position them at least a little bit toward the back that's best, like you really wanna be in front, right?

Speaker 1: So you can be the one that is handling the situation. You don't wanna put your dog in that position if you can help it, uh, for so many reasons. So many reasons. So we want, and we want our dogs to see us doing this because it really helps them a lot, especially if you do have a reactive dog and they see you take charge of the situation, get out in front and send that other dog sailing. That goes a long way with a lot of dogs. That's huge, right? You have a dog that's uncomfortable with other dogs running up into their space and they see you pop right out in front of them and send that other dog away.

Speaker 1: Suddenly your dog gets a lot more comfortable when they see other dogs flying toward them. Makes sense, doesn't it? Um, but a lot of times you kind of position yourself oriented toward the front. And if you actually just kind of,

20:00 — Stamp your feet, wave your arms, appear large, and make noise as though deterring…

Speaker 1: Kind of do what you'd do if you saw a black bear, right? So you kind of stamp your feet, wave your arms look big, um, sort of gesture toward them aggressively and maybe even make a noise. Uh, like for instance, my neighbor's cocker spaniel, um, has been known to charge at us occasionally when we go down on the road, <laugh>. Um, and this dog is just so full of it, and he's out there, um, in his yard just barking away at us. The second he's, he's just coming down the driveway.

Speaker 2: Oh, she was gonna call. That's why.

Speaker 1: So he'll see us coming and he'll be just a barking away, uh, all territorial. And we'll get down on the road and he'll start inching forward and then he'll make a break for it and he'll start charging toward us, like just trotting right toward us, you know, with his little tail up and his ears up and just a huffing and puffin, um, trying to look like a threat. And I, the last time I saw this, I moved toward him stomping my feet, and I just made a loud noise, like, ha. And he turned around and he ran back to his house screaming like a stuck pig.

Speaker 1: And his owner just looked up at me, my neighbor, um, I think he thought I did something to the dog. It was so dramatic. But it was a really intense reaction. Doesn't always happen that way, but it's usually pretty effective with most dogs. And if that isn't effective at causing the oncoming dog to hesitate, then that's actually a red flag in and of itself. 'cause it might just be a super confident dog, uh, <laugh> who's just unconcerned, who's like clueless, um, about <laugh>, you know, about respecting those kinds of really extreme cues. But most of the time that's kind of a red flag that this is a dog that could really be a threat.

Speaker 1: Um, so, you know, if I ask someone to recall their dog, or they're trying to recall their dog already, you know, and they can't, they're unable to recall their dog, and the dog continues moving toward us.

Speaker 1: And so I gesture toward the dog. I vocalize, I make it clear that the dog is not welcome in our space to the dog, right? I'm communicating this to the dog, not the owner. It's a conversation with the oncoming dog, right? So physical body language cues that say you're not welcome over here in our space. If I do that and they continue to approach, now I'm kind of going into code red, I will kick you, you will not touch my dog <laugh>, right? Because that's concerning. If you do that and you're very clear and don't hold back either, um, this is the stage where you wanna get traction if possible, right?

Speaker 1: You wanna prevent anything from happening or from feeling like you have to actually kick a dog to get them away from your dog. Like nobody wants to do that. So if you can clearly communicate with and influence the oncoming dog by using an aggressive body language posture or making noises, uh, then that's the way to go, right? It's like I can stamp my feet and yell and kind of wave my arms toward the dog. And if that works, great crisis averted, right? We don't need to find out what would've happened. And I don't need to be in a position where I actually have to physically,

24:00 — Communicate directly to the approaching dog with loud gestures and commands rather than relying…

Speaker 1: Uh, intercept someone's dog. And I don't wanna hurt anyone's dog, but I'm not going to find out if my dog's gonna get hurt. We're not gonna find that out, not if I have anything to do with it. So, and it just helps to have that really, really clear picture of this is what I'm okay with, this is what I'm not okay with. There aren't any exceptions. There aren't any decisions to be made. I don't need to evaluate anything. I just need to make sure this off leash dog does not come into contact with my dog.

Speaker 1: And so the bottom line, if nothing else works, if nothing else happens, I try to stand in front of my dog and I will make contact with the other dog aggressively to keep them away, because you don't have a choice at that point. And again, I, I don't want to send people into a panic about off-leash dogs. Uh, and a lot of off-leash dogs are okay, and it would be fine. The problem is you don't have any way to really assess that. You can guess, you know? And if you've worked with a lot of dogs, like if you're a dog trainer or you worked at a doggy daycare or something, maybe you're pretty adept at reading dogs, but there's still no way to know, there's no way to know

Speaker 1: Anything could happen. And it's just easier for me if I just have a policy where we just don't do it. We just, we don't interact with other dogs. We don't need to. There's no benefit. There's lots of risk. And I don't like being in the position of having to make that assessment. And I shouldn't have to also, so I kind of have a chip on my shoulder about that because like I said earlier, you've got the right to be out and about without being charged by a dog. And I understand dogs are dogs, and I understand accidents happen.

Speaker 1: And I understand sometimes they get away by, by accident, like leashes break collar slip, uh, which by the way, collar slipping is kind of our fault, right? Like, the collar should, should be well-fitted. Um, or maybe, you know, you thought your dog had a good recall then, then they didn't. Like I, I understand stuff happens. Uh, and you know, when there is a genuine accident, I try not to be hostile about that. It could happen to any of us. I've had, I've made, I've had accidents. Um, I've had dogs approach people, right? Even out on a long line.

Speaker 1: They're not even off leash. Um, but they managed to make it over to another person. Um,

Speaker 1: Because I just didn't, I just failed to control <laugh>, control it in time, like it happens. And I was apologetic. And hopefully, you know, if someone else makes that kind of mistake, they're apologetic, but oftentimes they're not. Um, oftentimes they're not. And what's funny is if your dog's under control and there's isn't, they still find a way to blame you most of the time. Like, it's, it's funny to me 'cause I hear that time and time and time again. I have one customer in particular who lives in a neighborhood where she's been, her and her dog have been attacked by another dog multiple times.

Speaker 1: Not the same dog either, different dog each time. And I think like two outta three of those times, the people of the attacking dog blamed her. And I, I've heard the story from countless people, uh, which is interesting to me. People feel really, really entitled. Uh, and they make excuses and that's how they get into the situation in the first place.

Speaker 1: So if you're gonna take your dog off leash, you need to know that they're going to listen. And in my opinion, that means they need to have an eco on, even if your dog is great and is trained really well and is reliable, there's always that what if. And that eco gives you that peace of mind where, you know, you have a physical communication line with them if it's needed, if they suddenly make a bad choice because behavior is somewhat unpredictable and the environment's unpredictable, and there's no way for you to know. So I don't feel comfortable with any dog being off leash without one.

29:00 — Kati prefers every off-leash dog to wear an e-collar, providing another communication line when…

Speaker 1: I just don't. And of course, that's a matter of choice. Not everybody wants to use one or not everyone wants to leave it on. That's fine. I don't agree with that, but it's fine. Um, but I tell you what, if I see an off leash dog running around without one right away, I'm on high alert <laugh>, I'm on high alert. So at least if you see an e-collar on them, you know, oh, this is, this is a dog that might actually have a recall. Um, but if you don't see one, then it's,

Speaker 1: Um, you gotta worry. And of course you usually, you usually don't. So, but that's it. I think the key takeaways are just you need to know clearly where you stand, uh, and what you are and are not okay with. And if you don't want your dog interacting with off leash dogs, I think you need to do yourself the favor of saying that applies to all off leash dogs. You're not gonna stand there in the moment and try to make a decision 'cause that's ridiculous. There's too little time, too much pressure and too high of a risk, uh, for you to be trying to decipher what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: So just have a policy and stick with it. And just remember that that's your, that's absolutely your right. There's nothing wrong with you. You're not being rude, uh, you're not being a bully just because you don't want off leash dogs approaching you and your dog. That's not why you're out there. You're not out there to make friends with other dogs. You're out there to be with your dog and to do something with your dog, not other people's dogs. That's okay. That's how it should be.

Speaker 1: So don't let people guilt you, um, into thinking that you're somehow ripping your dog off or that you're being rude to other people, um, because you're absolutely not right. And again, it's like if I see them coming, I, I'm not hostile right off the bat, right? If I have the time, I'll just ask them to recall their, if they can recall their dog. Um, but that's it. After that, I'm, I'm done being nice and my job is to just protect my dog. So yeah, that's it. And I mean, you gotta remember too, that people are putting their own dogs at risk.

Speaker 1: So, I mean, how do you feel about that? Right? So forget the fact that their dog's encroaching on your space and they seem to think that that's fine. They're putting their own dog at risk. They don't know you, they don't know your dog. Your dog could be cujo, right? You have a right to be out there with your dog if it's under control, even if they're aggressive toward other dogs because they're under control, even if they don't like other dogs, that's okay. Your dog needs to be under control, but under control doesn't mean

32:00 — Uncontrolled dogs risk their own safety because they know neither your dog nor its…

Speaker 1: That they have to be friendly with other dogs that charge into their space. Uninvited, unwelcome. So people that allow their dogs to just run up to other dogs are putting their own dog at risk and telling people that that's not okay, and that you're not all right with, with their strange dog, like coming into you and your dog's space. Like that might be what they need to hear. Some people, like I said, they just don't know what they don't know. They're not thinking about it. Uh, they're being wildly irresponsible, but yeah, everyone's on their own journey.

Speaker 1: <laugh>, you might be the first one to ever say anything like that to them. And it might get them thinking, geez, that's true,

Speaker 1: Right? So you might be the one to change their, their perspective on the whole thing. But, uh, have a solid plan so that in the moment you don't have to try to make decisions. And again, you wanna be out in front and you wanna be, uh, the one in the, in the situation that is controlling the space, um, and protecting your dog from the other dog. Even if you have a big dog and it's a little dog that's coming toward you guys, it doesn't matter. That almost makes it worse because if the little dog is crazy, which a lot of them are, right?

Speaker 1: 'cause they're just spoiled little brats a lot of the time. <laugh>, I'm sorry, but it's true. Um, that means that little dog might run right up to your dog and either be a complete dick or just super crazy and annoying, right? And your dog might not react great to that. And then the little dog might react worse to that. And before you know it, you know, your dog could end up hurting their dog,

Speaker 1: Um, which isn't good either. So you're protecting both parties. So I think it's, it's worth remembering that too. And that's it for today, guys. Um, watch out for those off leash dogs. So as a side note before we close out here, uh, I, I often don't go to places like that anymore for that reason. I don't usually go to the beach with dogs. I don't usually go on hiking trails with dogs. I will, but I'm pretty specific about where, um, I like it to be nice and open where people aren't gonna surprise me. Dogs aren't gonna surprise me like I want them to be around.

Speaker 1: It's a great distraction, but I wanna be able to give them a wide ber. So we go places where I know I'm gonna have a lot of space. I can see them coming a mile away. And so I have time, uh, to call my dog back to me and to see how under control their dog is.

35:00 — Choose open locations where you can see approaching dogs early and create a wide…

Speaker 1: And, uh, if I need to position myself out in front and be <laugh>, be ready for potential conflict. Um, a lot of times if you have that kind of space and time, you can actually just leave, can turn around and walk away. So, but you know, if you're on a narrow trail, it's almost the worst because people just come around the bend or the dog comes running around the bend and just surprises you and, and then you have a whole, um, surprise confrontation with like no time for anybody to do anything. And dogs react the most poorly to that for obvious reasons too.

Speaker 1: Uh, it's like you're going along and maybe it's pretty quiet and isolated, desolate, and then all of a sudden like there's just this other dog running into your face. Like that's really shocking. So, uh, maybe, maybe rethink where you're going if that's something that happens to you a lot. But that's it, that's what I would do. That's how we handle that situation. So again, uh, and maybe carry something, you know, carry mace dog mace is a thing.

Speaker 1: Uh, it could carry a noise maker. A lot of people carry a spray bottle with just like vinegar. Uh, there's lots of things you can do, lots of things you can do. Um, what else? Even an umbrella. I know people that have carried an umbrella, you know, the kind that have the automatic button and you push the button and it just pops open. Um, that would certainly scare most dogs away if they were charging toward you. 'cause a lot of those dogs, if they're really charging toward you fast, they're in drive. Um, they have tunnel vision, they're not thinking about anything else.

Speaker 1: They just have their eye on the prize. And then you pop open that umbrella and it just, um, knocks the arousal right out of 'em. And then you've got time to kind of regain control of the situation. So, but it doesn't hurt to carry something on you if you're gonna be in one of those environments where, uh, other off leash dogs are around, especially if it's in the type of environment where they can surprise you. So that's it. That's it for today guys. Thanks for joining me and I look forward to next time.