Prevention Series: Dog Reactivity

00:00 — Kati introduces the podcast and Diamond Canine’s focus on e-collar training for off-leash reliability.

Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Speaker 1: Hey, this is your host, Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. For those of you that are new here, we specialize in e-collar training. So we help dogs listen off leash and around distractions. Or if your dog's being an absolute total jerk, well, we can help with that too. We do it all and we do puppy training too. This podcast is just my way of sharing. Well, everything with you guys, the good, the bad, the ugly. And I will always be honest about how to fix the problems you might be dealing with with your dog.

Speaker 1: So we're not your average super floofy dog training podcast. We are real and honest around here. What you can do is hit subscribe, hit subscribe so that you don't miss an episode, and so that you can help support the podcast. Every subscribe or follow helps us so, so, so much so I can keep putting out this content. We appreciate you and without further ado, let's jump in.

Speaker 2: Hey everybody, welcome back to our prevention series. This is the last episode in the series and we're talking about dog reactivity today. And man, if there is a common problem, this is it <laugh>, if there is a winner, I think it's probably dog reactivity. We have so, so, so many reactive dogs come through here. And before we dig too much to that, I just wanna talk about reactivity versus aggression. Um, because I think there's definitely some conflation and some confusion around those two things, and they're not necessarily that different. I think people get hung up on it.

Speaker 2: I think it's important to a lot of people that their dog is classified as reactive, not aggressive, um, and it really doesn't matter. It's all kind of the same thing. I mean, the only real difference is, um, that, you know, if your dog has actually landed a bite on a person or on a dog, then the term aggression is absolutely accurate.

Speaker 2: Whereas if a dog has not managed to land a bite on anybody, then there's no way to know for sure necessarily that they would, right? So, but who cares? Like all dogs bite. So that's the thing. Like dogs are not either aggressive or not aggressive. They all have aggression within them because that's normal natural behavior that's coated in their DNA, right? The only thing that changes is their threshold to actually use their teeth, right? Their threshold to actually respond aggressively. Like those things change from dog to dog. They're not all the same, of course, but they all have the ability to be aggressive.

Speaker 2: And so I don't think it's necessarily fair or accurate to try to label a dog as either is or isn't, right? It's like, sure, there are some cases where it's really clear they are aggressive, right? And there are some cases where it's like you'd have to beat the dog within an inch of its life for it to like bite defensively or something, you know, something like that.

Speaker 2: Um, so there is a very wide spectrum, but you know, if your dog is reacting toward other dogs aggressively, then I think it's silly to split hairs over whether or not they're aggressive. Um, because we know they are because they're a dog, right? And so if they're threatening other dogs or they sound threatening, right? They're growling, they're barking, they're lunging, um, call it whatever you want. It's an unwanted behavior and it's potentially dangerous. So, but to classify, you know, to just define what reactivity is, what most people mean when they say reactivity, I mean technically, right?

04:00 — Growling, barking, and lunging toward dogs are unwanted and potentially dangerous regardless of the…

Speaker 2: It's any kind of a reaction. So again, you could, you could say all dogs are reactive, right? Unless they're dead, um, they're going to have a reaction when they see or they're around another dog. Um, even if it's a very subtle reaction, there's probably going to be something, right?

Speaker 2: They see the other dog, they notice it. Um, even if that is, they kind of turn their nose up and walk away, that's still a reaction. But most people, when they say reactivity mean that their dog has some kind of an unwanted reaction when they see other dogs, um, and it's causing a problem, right? And so sometimes they'll say it's, it's just excitement, or sometimes they'll say it's really mean or it looks really mean. And again, it doesn't matter. It's all reactivity. It all comes, you know, kind of from the same place. It's all causing the same problem.

Speaker 2: It's not a wanted behavior, it's an unwanted behavior. So it doesn't matter. Like you don't have to split hairs about any of that stuff. Um, if your dog gets super overexcited when it sees dogs or it gets super nasty when it sees dogs or if there's kind of a mix that's normal too.

Speaker 2: That happens all the time. Um, your dog's just a very reactive dog toward other dogs <laugh>. So, so let's talk about kind of some of the things that I see people do or hear about people doing, um, that I think contributes to this. And they start cementing the wrong patterns right off the bat so they kind of screw themselves. Um, this idea of socialization nowadays is a really big source of nurturing and cementing reactivity, which is what none of us want that, right? But here we are. Everybody's, oh, socialization, gotta socialize my dog and take 'em to the dog park and take 'em to puppy class and take 'em to socialize and, uh, gotta have all these dog friends.

Speaker 2: We gotta go to the pet store and say hi to every dog we see, right? And that's our idea of socialization. Socialization is all the rage.

Speaker 2: No, I just had to correct Daisy 'cause she, she's doing a long down while I record <laugh>. She just got up. I think she might've spotted a peanut on the floor. We use peanuts around here for dog treats, not all the time, but it's a great dog treat. They're cheap. Um, they're fairly healthy and um, you know, we buy the unsalted ones and the dogs like them. So it makes a good treat. Anyway, <laugh>, this idea, uh, that we need to socialize, quote unquote our dogs with all of the other dogs out there is just silly.

07:00 — Owners should evaluate which behavioral patterns their daily activities create, rehearse, and reinforce.

Speaker 2: So when you really think about it, okay, you should think everything you do with your dog, you should think in terms of what patterns are we cementing? What patterns are we creating? What patterns are we rehearsing? What patterns are we really cementing in my dog's repertoire, right? Because as you repeat these things over and over and over again, they do become cemented.

Speaker 2: And so I can definitely see where people are coming from. I used to think the same thing, but if you really think about it, if you take your dog out and you go to say hi to every dog that you see, you go to all these group things where your dog can mingle with all these other dogs, right? The human is thinking, oh, this is great. 'cause like my dog is getting all of these positive interactions with other dogs, which we'll get into that later, right? 'cause they might not be positive, but let's just say they are, okay?

Speaker 2: Let's just say they're all friendly. Encounters your dog's playing with other dogs, alright? Okay, great. So your dog's getting these quote unquote positive interactions over and over again. But what else is happening, right? So you can't just focus on that. What else is happening? Well, let's talk about that.

Speaker 2: So your dog is, every time they see another dog, what happens to you? You go out the window, right? You're totally irrelevant. Dog tunes you out, forgets about you, right? They're at the end of their leash looking at the other dog. Okay? So we're cementing that the next thing that's happening is your dog's arousal level is escalating and it's escalating fairly quickly. And over time it will escalate even more quickly. So your dog sees another dog, you go out the window, the excitement level escalates, right? And then we see all the behaviors that we don't like, start to develop the lunging, the pulling to get over to see the other dog.

Speaker 2: And if you get in their way and they can't go to see the other dog, what are you gonna get? More pulling, more lunging, maybe barking, whining. Um, and that can also morph into like growling and looking nasty because they're very frustrated and it just kind of morphs into that nasty behavior. And of course there can be other things going on too, but that's just a really common, uh, manifestation that we see with reactivity, right? So your dog gets excited and aroused and stimulated, they tune you out.

Speaker 2: They start the pulling and the whining and all the stuff we don't like, right? So if you start cementing this pattern of get excited, tune me out, pull toward the other dog. Um, and then it's, you always get to meet the other dog. You always get to play with the other dog, right? So now we're just cementing that over and over and over again. And then when you try to take them out and just walk by another dog, what do you think is gonna happen? It's probably not gonna go real well, right? And again, it will look different for every dog.

10:00 — Allowing dogs to meet or play every time can cement tuning out the handler…

Speaker 2: Some dogs are softer and lower key. Um, but some dogs are very intense and drivey and big and powerful and it's no bueno, <laugh>. So those aren't the things you want to cement with your dog. So when you're going out with your dog, especially if you get a puppy, right, you wanna start from the beginning patterning the things you want.

Speaker 2: So stop thinking in terms of positive interactions and negative interactions and start thinking in terms of how do I want things to look with my dog when we go out together, right? Because this isn't about your dog making friends. This is about your life with your dog. Your dog doesn't need to be friends with all the strange dogs out there. In fact, we highly discourage that. There's no benefit to come of that. But there's lots of risk and there's lots of downside like we just talked about. So it's not that your dog can't have any dog friends, right?

Speaker 2: But it's like choose actual dog friends, like people you're friends with that have dogs, family members that have dogs that you want your dog to develop an actual relationship with dogs that they're gonna see again, not just we go out and we meet any random psycho on the street because they could be <laugh>.

Speaker 2: We won't get too much into that, but that's another downside to all this socialization business, the way that it's being done in the modern world. Um, and so we see, you know, the same thing come out of like doggy daycare, which is so popular now, right? So many people that I meet with reactive dogs, their dog's been going to doggy daycare, and that's like the worst, right? I'm sorry, but it just is because most of the time, dogs at doggy daycare, right? They don't even have their owners there to do anything. Like, you have zero control because you are not even there.

Speaker 2: And your dog's meeting all these strange dogs that you don't know and you don't know how they're treating your dog, right? Not necessarily the people there, but I mean the dogs. The o if you want me to believe that you're dumping your dog into an environment with 10, 20, 30, 50 other dogs, and you want me to believe that they're all just polite and friendly and well mannered and there's boundaries and every no not happening, that is a pipe truck. <laugh>,

13:00 — Daycare exposes dogs to rude, pushy, bullying, and unpredictable interactions with little owner oversight.

Speaker 2: Okay? So you put your dog in that environment, um, where they're just surrounded by strange dogs with all these different personalities, some of which are absolutely going to be bullies, they're going to be rude, they're gonna pester your dog, they're gonna whatever, right? Or maybe your dog learns to do that to them. Maybe they have to learn to do that to them, right? So both of those things happen and happen frequently. Your dog's either being bullied or learning to be a bully depending on their tendencies and their experiences there. Um, and are either of those things that you want to pattern, think about how that's gonna pan out.

Speaker 2: When you go out in the world and you try to walk by another dog on a leash, right? Your dog is gonna pull up all this experience from doggy daycare when they see another dog, they get excited, they run over there, they treat the dog like their own personal treadmill or vice versa, right?

Speaker 2: And a lot of dogs are not gonna respond well to that. So they see your dog coming down the street, they see your dog starting to fixate and get super aroused. They're having a conversation that you're not even privy to, and they see your dog's energy and they see, you know, the tail up and the forward nature and they start reacting to your dog, which then sets your dog off even more. And now we're off to the races, right? So if you're putting your dog in an environment where they're developing this view, this, um, you know, this set of habits with other dogs, they exude that energy just walking down the street and other dogs see that and they don't like it.

Speaker 2: And God forbid your dog gets away from you and runs up to another dog on a leash like that. Um, it may not go very well.

Speaker 2: It may go very not well, <laugh>. Um, so we see a lot of issues come out of doggy daycare and dog parks because there's nobody actually enforcing boundaries. And a lot of these places like to say they do, right? They say stuff that sounds really good. Like, um, you know, they talk about the socialization and how your dog is getting to learn the cues from other dogs, and they like to say that they have rules and boundaries, but all that really means is if another dog gets snappy, they go throw 'em in solitary confinement. And that's not rules and boundaries, that's not socialization and that's not learning.

Speaker 2: Your dog doesn't learn anything that way. None of them do.

Speaker 2: And I have not come across a doggy daycare that does things any differently than that. Sure. I'm, I'm sure there's some out there that are fairly good at evaluating dog interactions and body language and all this stuff. And maybe they step in, but they're still not going to be giving feedback to the dogs in a meaningful way that actually changes their behavior. And most of the time we see dogs just kind of running amok as long as no one's getting bitten, right? And then once they do get bitten, then there's just, like I said, they get thrown in solitary, solitary confinement if things start to escalate and sometimes it's too late.

Speaker 2: But anyways, I don't wanna go off on a doggy daycare rant. Um, I just wanna say that the quote unquote socialization that people think is taking place there is not helping them. It's not valuable at all.

Speaker 2: Think. And I think if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. How is turning your dog loose without you even there into a group of random dogs with random personalities to just see the dogs escalate, get excited, get aroused, get anxious, get nervous, whatever it is that's happening, and get piled on by these dogs, often overwhelmed by these dogs. Or go and treat these dogs, like I said, like their own personal play things, right? They're getting bullied or they're bullying other dogs. They're getting chased around, they're trying to get away, but they can't. So they're forced into social interactions sometimes that they don't want, or they're forcing other dogs into social interactions that they don't want and they're learning to be quote unquote too much, right?

17:00 — Random group play can overwhelm dogs, increase arousal, or teach them to treat other…

Speaker 2: So both of these things can happen.

Speaker 2: Then at the end of the day, you show up and you love that your dog is so tired, right? They're good because they're so tired. And that is not going to help you avoid dog reactivity. You're literally throwing them into reactivity soup. Like it's, you're like going out of your way to build reactivity in these environments. Like it is that dramatic in my opinion. Um, now that doesn't necessarily mean if your dog goes to these places that they're going to be dog reactive, but I mean, uh, in my opinion, nearly a hundred percent of dogs that go to these places are dog reactive.

Speaker 2: It's just how severe is dependent on the dog, right? So the dogs that are more mellow, more laid back, more low key, less bothered in these places, or slightly less stimulated because that's just their genetics. Like they're not gonna be as bad, right?

Speaker 2: So some dogs, it might just be a little pulling on the leash, um, or a little trying to avoid, right? And it's not necessarily a big deal. Big deal. And then you've got like the middle of the road dogs that end up like pulling on the leash, harder, maybe whining. Um, and then you have the dogs, you know, at the end of the spectrum that are more like barking, lunging, maybe growling, like it's really hard to pull them away. So, but turning your dog loose into those environments, especially without you, there is just nuts. And you're not going to build the relationship you want with your dog where they're not reactive in those environ.

Speaker 2: There, there just is no way to do that, right? So let's talk about my experience. The puppy that got me into dog training, um, my rottweiler, um, that I got, she, and she wasn't my first Roddy, I love Roddy's.

20:00 — Genetics can produce different levels of reactivity, from mild leash pulling to intense attempts…

Speaker 2: Um, but we got her in Ohio and she was from a basically a long line of protection dogs, but had, there also was some nervousness mixed in there. And her mother was a very nervous dog. And so this was a terrible combination. But anyway, you know, I set out with this dog like having the best intentions and kind of under the impression that training is everything, right? But here's the thing, it's not 'cause genetics matter too. And so although I went out of my way to do everything, right, first of all, I didn't do everything right, but even if I had, it still would've been been very challenging just because of her genetic.

Speaker 2: Um, but so I set out with the best intentions, I'm like, we're gonna do all this stuff. She's gonna be such a well-trained dog, right? As so many owners do. And of course we signed up for puppy class, right?

Speaker 2: Puppy, kindergarten, and we go there and we're teaching the obedience commands, which was fine and it's all positive reinforcement, which is fine, that's what we do too. Um, but she was reactive from the time she was a puppy. And so we go into class and it's a fairly big room and there's people with their dogs basically in a big circle around the room. And she would just lock on to one of them. You know, they might be all the way across the other side of the room and just start barking and pulling and lunging. Um, and looked much like protection work, <laugh>.

Speaker 2: So, and I'm not saying that's what she was doing, um, but that is kind of what we were rehearsing because I'm behind her. I've got the leash, she is pulling on the leash, she's getting frustrated, she's lunging, she's fixating on the dog across the room. She's barking at them. At them. And what did the instructor tell me to do? She told me to say my dog's name, which was mki.

Speaker 2: And when the dog turned around to glance at me, even if it was just a glance to mark it and feed it. So that's what I did, right? Because I didn't know. Um, and she told me being in that environment and being around those dogs was gonna help temper this problem. Did it? Nope. <laugh>, no it did not. Did her protocol saying my dog's name and my dog turning around and getting fed, did that temper it? Nope, it did not. In fact, I think it strengthened it, right? Which makes sense because basically I just keep feeding my dog and feeding my dog and feeding my dog and they're getting more and more amped up and more and more escalated and more and more excited.

23:00 — Repeatedly saying the puppy’s name and rewarding glances did not reduce the escalating reactivity.

Speaker 2: This is more just more fuel for the reactivity. So yeah, I probably did strengthen her response to hearing her name. That is true, that I will buy.

Speaker 2: But it didn't temper the reactivity. It certainly didn't eliminate it. And I do believe it strengthened that as well. And that's the thing you have to remember about positive reinforcement is you can really only strengthen behaviors with it. You're not going to eliminate anything, especially long term. You're just not. But, so I'm taking this person's advice because I don't know, right? That's why I'm there. Um, but so what were we cementing, right? We were cementing, we go, we see dogs, we get reactive, we get food. And that's what I cemented with her and it sucks.

Speaker 2: Now, I mean, knowing everything I know now, I know that in it would've ended the same way for her. Um, because just of her genes. Uh, and I don't wanna get into that all over again. You can go back and listen to my very first episode, <laugh>, if you're interested in hearing the details. It's called Bad Puppy, where I talk all about my experience with her. Um, but she was an extremely reactive, aggressive dog. And advice like that does not help going into environments like that. And not knowing what you should actually be doing does not help.

Speaker 2: So what should I have done in that situation?

Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what I should have done. Strong caller on the dog. She starts to fixate on another dog. Ha leash pop, right? Do not fixate on other dogs, do not react to other dogs, nevermind the other dogs. And that might be the single most valuable piece of information that you get out of this entire episode. Because even if you have a very sensitive dog, even if you have a very small dog, even if you have a little puppy, you should be using that leash for communication, right? Even if you don't have a prong collar on your dog yet, maybe they're too young, maybe they're just really tiny.

Speaker 2: You should be using that leash in a way that actually gives your dog information. I don't care how big, small, younger or old your dog is, if your dog does something that we don't like, if your dog does something that might be going down a path, we don't want it to go. If we're trying to get our dog's attention, if we're trying to tell our dogs, nevermind the other dogs. That's what your leash is for, right? It's not just to hold on for dear life, pop your leash. Yes, even on a young puppy, right? And I put puppies on prong collars.

26:00 — The leash should communicate with the dog and redirect attention, including with young puppies.

Speaker 2: Um, once they get to be 12 to 14 weeks old, especially a large breed dog, they're on a prong collar. But here's the thing, guys, you control the intensity, right? You don't have to fling them to the moon. You can be as gentle or as firm as you need to be for that dog, right?

Speaker 2: So I can give a very gentle leash pop. I can give a very firm leash pop. But you can also pop your leash on a flat collar, right? Even if it's not on a prong collar, it's not as effective. If you have a big, strong bullheaded dog who's obtuse and doesn't notice anything, that's probably not gonna work, right? But with a puppy, sure. If your puppy's on a flat collar pop your leash, get their attention back on you, right? So you have to start talking to your dog physically. And I think that's a huge piece people are missing, especially with young puppies, right?

Speaker 2: Prong call or not, you can start talking through your leash, getting their attention back on you and kind of disagreeing with things, um, and just kind of steering them in the right direction. So these settings can be very valuable if you are giving your dog the proper feedback. And that's why doggy daycare doesn't work 'cause they're not getting the proper feedback,

Speaker 3: Okay?

Speaker 2: Socialization can be valuable if your dog is getting the proper feedback, but they're not. You're allowing your dog to escalate uncontrollably. Forget about you and your the other dogs are socializing your dog, which is not valuable because the other dogs are gonna be all over the map, right? Some of them are gonna be rude, they're gonna be pushy, they're gonna be overstimulated, they're gonna be bullies, right? Or they're gonna be meek. Your dogs, you cannot count on other dogs to socialize your dog for you. That is your job. You have to give your dog the feedback.

Speaker 2: And again, interaction with strange dogs not a great idea, right? So how do you socialize your dog? Like what, what should you be doing? It's like, okay, yes, take your dog out places, take them out around other dogs. And you know what? Don't go say hi. Don't do it because it doesn't matter. Your dog doesn't need to do that. Do you honestly think that if you don't let your dog run up to every other dog and say hi and play and have a quote unquote positive interaction, do you really think that then they're just going to be terrible with other dogs.

29:00 — Not greeting other dogs does not make a dog hostile; it can instead establish…

Speaker 2: They're gonna be scared of other dogs, they're gonna be nasty with other dogs. How is that gonna create nastiness? How does just not going to say hi, create nastiness. It doesn't,

Speaker 3: It

Speaker 2: Doesn't, it doesn't create anything except the exact thing it is, which is I don't have to respond to there being other dogs around. Isn't that what everybody wants? <laugh> love the podcast. Well, I have great news.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for your support, enjoy the rest of the show.

Speaker 2: So again, it's like you wanna stop thinking about it in terms of positive interactions and negative interactions. That is not what will set your dog up for success. Excuse me, let me a sneezing fit. If you would like to be able to have a dog that can just walk by other dogs and it's not a big deal, they're not scared, they're not terrified, they're not super overexcited, they're not nasty, they don't tune you out. They pay attention to you. They stay engaged and they're confident. If that's what you want, then that's what you should go do.

Speaker 2: It sounds so simple when I put it that way. Um, but I mean, that is how these things go, right? Humans tend to overcomplicate things and it's compounded certainly by the fact that that's what the internet tells you, right? Everything on the internet, the narrative is socialized, socialize, socialize, which most people interpret as mingle. Or a lot of times it just outright says your dog should have positive interactions with other dogs. Um, but that's not really what anybody wants. People just wanna be able to take their dog places and have it not be a shit show because there's other dogs around.

Speaker 2: And so that's the only thing you need to do. So hopefully that's a huge relief to you. It's like, teach your dog. Forget about the other dogs.

32:00 — A quoted analogy illustrates that exposure to an activity does not erase innate behaviors…

Speaker 2: So I saw a post this morning, which it was kind of for last night, I don't know, but it was kind of a weird analogy, but it was extremely accurate. So I'm gonna share it with you. And I can't remember who it was that posted it. Um, yeah, I can't remember. I'd give them credit, but I, I can't remember who it was. I I thought it was a strange analogy, but it was very accurate. And so thinking that your dog dog, well actually their analogy was around pray drive, right? But it relates to this too, so I'm still gonna share it.

Speaker 2: So they posted thinking that having your dog around livestock as a puppy is going to teach them, right? Or is going to avoid them wanting to chase and potentially kill livestock later is like bringing your toddler to strip clubs thinking that they won't want sex when they're older. <laugh>. So again, strange analogy, um, but extremely accurate because here's the thing that's missing from that innate genetic behavior, right?

Speaker 2: It almost certainly doesn't matter what you expose them to, they're going to have that drive later because it is coded in their DNA, it is part of their makeup. And this is very much the same in a lot of ways, right? So if your dog has genetic coding to be protective, to be very social, to be any of those things, those things are going to take over at some point as your dog matures, unless you do something to change that. And that's where the meaningful feedback comes in, right? So you can take your dog into any environment you want and rather they're interacting with other dogs or they're just hanging out around other dogs, or they're just passing by other dogs.

Speaker 2: Any of those situations, the one most critical thing for you to do is to provide your dog with meaningful feedback in real time. That is a good thing you did. That's a fine thing you did. That's a bad thing you did. Right? And that doesn't just mean stepping in and separating them, throwing them in solitary confinement, walking away. It means actual feedback, right? Praise, reward, punishment, correction.

35:00 — Meaningful, immediate feedback should identify acceptable and unacceptable behavior during real-world exposure.

Speaker 2: So for instance, if my pug, 'cause he is done this a few times. If my pug, when I, if I allow him to interact with one of my training dogs and he puts his paws up over another dog's back, and this might sound arbitrary and some dogs don't care, right? But it's not a thing I want him doing. 'cause a lot of dogs do care. And it can also escalate into pushier behavior. Like that is a pushy behavior, right? He's kind of short. He might just be trying to get up. There might just be his play style, but it might be he's being super pushy and he is gonna learn to be pushier, right?

Speaker 2: And a lot of dogs just don't like it. It's kind of rude. I don't want him doing that. If he does that, I tell him no. And there's a correction for that, right? So just, just pulling him down, just walking away, that doesn't teach him anything. There's no substance there, there's no value, there's no real feedback. Just going into the environment is not feedback, right? And so that's kind of the point about the livestock, like just hanging out around livestock doesn't teach your dog shit, right? And I'm not saying there's a zero value in that.

Speaker 2: Um, I think exposure is important, but just as important is the feedback during the exposure.

Speaker 2: So our preference usually is to go out to places, real life, real world places where there's people where there's dogs. We don't say hi to everybody because it's not important. But instead we just focus on doing things with our dog, usually walking in a heel, right? But whatever it is. And we give our dog actual meaningful, real time feedback about their behavior. <laugh>, right? Oh my God, what a novel idea. So if my dog starts to escalate and tune me out, no, you, you gotta pay attention to me. If my dog starts to fixate, no, you gotta pay attention to me, my dog starts to pull on the leash.

Speaker 2: No, right?

Speaker 2: We start to provide accountability for that stuff. So here's a case. We have a dog that just started. Um, she's not comfortable with me sharing him on social media just yet. Um, but I think down the road when they're in a better place, she probably will be. And, uh, I'm excited to share his story because I think he's going to do great. And who knows, like it's early, but I think they're gonna do fantastic. Um, they, they both did wonderful at their first lesson, but they've only had one lesson. His dog is a pity, um, and beautiful dog.

Speaker 2: But he absolutely flipped his lid when I took him away from his owner. I mean, he was popping around like popcorn, thrashing, slamming down into the floor trying to get his muzzle off. Um, he ended up popping the blood vessels in his eyes, trying so hard to get, you know, away from me and back to her. Um, but once I got him over that he was pretty good. He wasn't real comfortable, but he was very well behaved. Um, and he was actually in quite submissive form. But this dog is highly, highly quote unquote reactive, right?

Speaker 2: And in my mind when I see a dog like this with the behaviors that he has, um, this is a dog that probably wants to attack and kill other dogs, right? But we call it reactive because he is never managed to do that before. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be full on aggression, right?

Speaker 2: So in my mind, this is an aggressive dog, but she can't walk him because he wants to go after other dogs. And so he's barking, he's pulling, he's lunging, he's growling, his hackles are up, right? And he's out at the end of the leash trying to drag her across the street to go attack other dogs. Um, and it's a problem. And he is recently started exhibiting some untoward behavior toward humans in some specific scenarios as well. So, um, he comes in for their first lesson and we, we, he has that fit when I take him away from his owner, which wasn't immediately, we were a few minutes in at that point, you know, we spent some time talking to her.

40:00 — A severely reactive dog is described barking, lunging, growling, and trying to drag its…

Speaker 2: We had her put the equipment on him and everything. And then I went and took him away just to get him used to me.

Speaker 2: And that's when that happened. And he, he had a full on freak out and we got him over that and things were okay. His owner was very emotional, which is normal. Um, because that's alarming when you see your dog behave that way and do that kind of stuff. And it's upsetting. It's really upsetting to see the extent of how bad your dog really is. 'cause most people don't know, I'd argue like almost nobody knows <laugh>, right? Um, and so it is upsetting, but so we take this dog who's extremely reactive toward other dogs, right? And what are we gonna do?

Speaker 2: Well the first thing we did really, we made sure he was comfortable with the equipment, kind of got him used to that a little bit like the prong collar collar and having him respond when he feels that pressure and seeing how that was gonna look.

Speaker 2: And then we went into the big space here at the training center and we have several dogs in kennels right there, which by the way, he was staring at and reacting to from all the way across the other side of, of the space. And it's 2,400 square foot space. So he's pretty far away, but he can see them on the back wall and they're perfectly calm dogs. They're laying down in their kennel and he was reacting to them when they came in. Um, and now we're gonna go walk toward them. We're gonna be, you know, 15 feet away from them.

Speaker 2: And we're gonna work, we're gonna do stuff, we're gonna learn stuff. Even though there's dogs there. We're gonna ignore those dogs and we're gonna do work.

Speaker 2: You and me, we're gonna walk around on the leash, we're gonna learn to respond to leash pressure. We're gonna learn the place command. We're gonna start learning what the eco means. And that's what we do at our first lesson. So she comes in with an extremely dog, reactive dog and on day one he's working around other dogs, right? No, they're not loose together, but the dogs are there and he isn't allowed to focus on them. He has to pay attention and get through his lesson. And that my friend is the first step to nevermind the other dogs pay attention to me.

Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what, it was super easy, super easy because number one, he had to overcome immense upset when I took him away from his owner, right? And so then he was just in a much more submissive state anyway because it was kind of a holy shit moment for him.

Speaker 2: Um, but then as we moved into the other space and we started working and we got closer to the dogs, which by the way, the first thing I did after we got him used to, you know, his new equipment and everything as I took him over there and we walked back and forth by the kennels, I mean right by the kennels with the dogs in them, right? And if he started to stare at those dogs, leash pop, don't stare at the dogs, nevermind the dogs pay attention to me, right? And so most places are gonna have you out there shoving food down your dog's throat constantly.

44:00 — Food should support obedience around dogs, not bribe a dog that is already unable…

Speaker 2: And I don't have a problem with using positive reinforcement strategically to increase behaviors, but I have a huge problem with using it to bribe dogs. Not to pay attention to other dogs because it doesn't work. You're going to make things worse in most cases.

Speaker 2: Um, it's not meaningful feedback, it's not wiring anything different. Most likely you're just exacerbating the issue, right? So we're not gonna talk a lot about how to fix reactivity, but what we did with him on his first lesson, those are the things everybody should be doing with their dog from day one. And I'm not saying if you have an eight week, 10 week old puppy that if they look at another dog, you give them a firm leash pop. That's not what I'm saying, right? But certainly you should be doing things with your puppy, with other dogs around instead of go see the other dogs, right?

Speaker 2: Have your treat pouch, do the sits, do the downs, do the recalls with the other dogs around, use the food, that's great, do that. But as your dog starts to get older, and by older, that might just be, that might be 10, 12 weeks, right? So with the puppy I had that I was talking about earlier at that age, right? I picked her up at 12 weeks, but she was already, I knew 10 minutes after I picked her up there, there was a problem <laugh>, right? So even if I had picked her up earlier, I would've seen it.

Speaker 2: Um, and if she had exhibited those kind of really intense and sort of nasty behaviors, I absolutely would've been firmer with her, um, from the beginning, a hundred percent, right? So you have to look at the dog you have.

Speaker 2: Is your dog just a little interested in other dogs? Like that's normal Or is your dog from the get-go? Like, I wanna go attack other dogs. 'cause those are two different things. You're not necessarily gonna deal with them the same way. Um, but the important thing is meaningful feedback and tailored to your dog. Okay? So how intense is your dog? What is it your dog is doing, right? If they're just moderately interested in other dogs and they're a young puppy, just go out and do a bunch of food work around other dogs and just don't go say hi to the other dogs.

Speaker 2: Like that's probably enough for now, right? And as things evolve, if that changes, you adjust, right? So as your dog gets a little older, especially as the hormones kick in, they start moving through maturation, you start seeing more fixation, more escalation, you start to see some barking or some pulling, right?

Speaker 2: Then you've got some different work to do, right? You have to correct your dog for that. You have to tell them no, that it's not allowed, don't do that. And for most people, that's just missing, for most dogs. It's just not happening, right? And so now we have a chance for that behavior to just snowball because it's just like every other behavior guys, once it happens, once you're cooking with gas, it's gonna happen more and more and more and it's gonna get more and more intense. And that's just normal. That's true for pretty much all behavior, right?

Speaker 2: It's like somebody that's never seen their dog bite before. Once they bite, then they start biting all the time and then they start biting harder. That's just how those things, that is normal. That is the normal evolution of behavior over time. Things generally tend to become more frequent and more intense over time unless something happens to change that <laugh>. So if you start to see that stuff from your dog, then you need to be, you need to intervene with meaningful feedback that will change that behavior, right? And just being neutral, just walking away, that's not gonna do it.

48:00 — Dogs rehearsing fixation and escalation need intervention that changes behavior, not merely neutral withdrawal.

Speaker 2: Um, but by and large the takeaways here are like, if you don't want a reactive dog, then do not rehearse seeing other dogs getting excited, interacting, excuse me again, tuning you out, right? And then you rehearse that over and over and over again thinking your dog is having positive interactions and their excitement is doing what? Becoming more frequent, more intense. Um, that's not what you wanna rehearse with your dog. Don't put them at doggy daycare where they're doing that exact thing and you, you're not even there to know what's happening, who they're interacting with, what kind of interactions they're having.

Speaker 2: They're not getting any meaningful feedback. It is the worst thing you can do if you don't wanna reactive dog. Um, stop thinking about things in terms of positive interactions and negative interactions and start thinking about things in terms of what do I want my dog to be able to do with me when there are other dogs around?

Speaker 2: Because remember, just being, just seeing a thing doesn't guarantee you anything. So just like the analogy I used earlier, your dog sees the mailman come every single day, right? But it's not until they get to be six months, eight months, 12 months old that they start having a reaction to the mailman coming, right? But all that previous exposure did nothing. It didn't matter. Why didn't it matter? Well, because these are behaviors that were triggered probably by the maturation process. So as a dog started to get older, those behaviors that are coated in their DNA now start to surface.

Speaker 2: And that's normal, right? And so the key isn't just seeing things or doing things, it's being ready to give your dog meaningful feedback when they need it.

Speaker 2: And that might not be right now, that might be later, right? So both, right? Expose your dog in a neutral manner, like work on building your relationship with your dog around other dogs. Ah, so it's such a valuable thing to do, especially with a puppy to start cementing. Hey, there's other people. There's dogs, there's cars, there's bikes, there's all this stuff. Pay attention to me. Let's do some stuff. Let's do some sits come when called. Let's have some fun, right? Keep them enthusiastic about it, like what they're engaging with you around other dogs. And then the second piece is, as they start to get a little older, as they start to fixate, as they start to pull on the leash, as they start to potentially bark or any of that business, you are there to say, no correction.

Speaker 2: We don't do that.

Speaker 2: And now you are in a really good place, right? Because you've cemented what you want, you've shown them what you want, you've done repetition with what you want, which is don't care that much about the other dogs, right? So the truth is that most people don't realize their dogs get most of the socialization that they need when they're very young puppies from their litter mates, from their parents. Um, they don't need a ton more. I think it's valuable for them to, to see other dogs and kind of be around them in that neutral way, right?

Speaker 2: So they, they remember like dogs are a thing, they're out there, but they're no big deal. Um, I do think that's valuable, but they get most of the socialization they really need from their litter mates when they're young.

Speaker 2: And we see dogs all the time that were socialized, socialized, socialized, right? Quote unquote socialized like they were around other dogs, they interacted with other dogs and they're absolutely crazy outta their mind. Reactive, they're aggressive, they're super excited about dogs, or they wanna kill other dogs. We see that all the time guys. And then we see dogs that, you know, oh, they were quote unquote COVID dogs, right? And we didn't get them out and we didn't get to socialize them. And dog's fine doesn't care about other dogs at all. Dogs are no big deal, right?

Speaker 2: So again, that's why I made that point earlier that sometimes we put too much stock in everything is training and we forget about DNA, like it's just who the dog is, right? So some dogs like you can do all this stuff, right? And they're still reactive or they start to become reactive because that's who they are. And you really have to work to change it. You have to do something right? And some dogs, it doesn't matter what you do, they'll never be reactive 'cause it just, it just isn't in their repertoire. It's not in their DNA and it just doesn't happen.

Speaker 2: So it's not all about you, it's not all about your training. Um, but here's the thing. That's the only thing you can control, right? You can only control you and your training. You can't change your dog's DNA. So think about things in terms of what do I want to pattern with my dog in our everyday life, right? And if it isn't, I want my dog to pull on the leash and go say hi to everybody and get excited and tune me out. If it's not that, then don't do that, right? Because it's so funny how we shoot ourselves in the foot that way.

54:00 — The episode concludes that following the handler, leash work, obedience, and appropriately firm feedback…

Speaker 2: We tell ourselves we want a well-behaved dog that we can take anywhere. And then we go out and we rehearse utter chaos with them over and over again thinking that that is somehow gonna get us a dog. We can bring anywhere who's well behaved. Um, and it won't <laugh>, it just won't sounds obvious, but again, like I can see where people are coming from, especially with the internet narratives out there saying, oh, you gotta have all these positive interactions. No you don't. No you don't. And I'm not saying positive interactions are bad, but your first priority should be teaching your dog to just follow your lead.

Speaker 2: That should absolutely unequivocally be your first priority, right? Loss of leash work, lots of positive reinforcement, that's fine. Lots of obedience work. But also the firmness, right? The confidence, the assertiveness that says, Hey, pay attention to me, nevermind them over there. Right? The correction if's needed for fixation and escalation, for lunging, for barking, right? Those corrections never come. That behavior gets worse. Being around stuff is valuable, but not without the proper feedback from you. We hope you enjoyed

Speaker 1: Today's episode. If there's a topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly at Kati at Diamond Canine dot com via email. So I will link to that email address in the show notes. Thanks for joining us today, guys. Thanks for supporting the podcast and I look forward to the next one.