Positively Shitty (E-Collar vs. Positive Reinforcement)

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Diamond K9’s focus on e-collar training, off-leash obedience, and behavior modification.

Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Speaker 2: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond and Canine Dog training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training for off-leash obedience and behavior modification. We do lots of state of mind work, things like resource guarding, reactivity separation anxiety, um, but also just, you know, off-leash reliability with obedient stuff. And we do puppy raising and puppy training as well. So that's who we are and what we do. This podcast, uh, is something we put together to try to reach more people, um, get the truth out there, get the information out there, the information that we know people need, because it's what we're seeing and hearing from our hands-on clients every day.

Speaker 2: So this is the stuff we're talking about with them. Um, and hopefully you get something out of it. Uh, and today, I don't know, today I'm honestly just feel <laugh> feeling a little salty.

Speaker 2: Um, not that that's that out of the ordinary for me, but <laugh>, um, because there's been, it seems like we rang in the new year and the hate has just been like, just a multitude. It's just, it's just been <laugh> exponentially worse than normal. Um, it's almost like they got a little break over the holidays and now they just have this renewed energy and it is just, they're coming out of the woodwork. Um, but so what happens is we see it a lot on social media, right? So you get like the keyboard warriors. Um, and I don't know how many people even are familiar with this.

Speaker 2: Like, there might be a lot of people listening who just have no idea this is even a thing which blows my mind. But it's true. And you know, when I think about it, it, it wasn't all that long ago, um, that even the stuff I'm saying on this podcast would have blown my mind. So back when I had a bad dog and I finally found people that could help me, it took me a long time. By the way, that was not easy. Um, I had some real behavioral issues with my dog, serious stuff, and I, I couldn't find anyone to really help me.

Speaker 2: And I, I remember stumbling upon a podcast where the guy was talking about using punishment

Speaker 2: And I was just like, wait, what <laugh> It was, it was so foreign to me. And so it's really hard for me to wrap my head around that being foreign now, right? Because this is my life day in and day out. This is the stuff I'm helping people with day in and day out and the stuff I'm talking about and the stuff I'm fighting with people about even, um, day in and day out. Um, and it's all just second nature to me now. And, and, and I'm good at it and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Speaker 2: And it's just normal to me and I don't see the big deal anymore. But it wasn't that long ago that I was in your shoes going, huh, <laugh> So, so, but anyway, my point was a lot of people don't realize there's that kind of a divide in the dog training world. Man, it is a vicious, vicious place, no pun intended. Um, what I mean by that is we have quote unquote different types of training. And I still stand by the fact that like, there's two types of training. There's effective and there's ineffective and that's really it.

04:00 — She frames the training debate as a divide between effective and ineffective methods rather…

Speaker 2: Um, but focusing on, but there is other stuff too. Like, there's like agility training, there's protection training. So there's different types of training in that respect. But as far as how you shape behavior, you're really just, you're effective or you're ineffective. You either get it or you don't. And that's it. And there is a divide mainly among family, pet dog trainers. 'cause you have a camp that says you should never use a correction. You should never use punishment. You should never use negative consequences. You should never use anything aversive. You should never stress out your dog.

Speaker 2: You should never make your dog uncomfortable. And if you do, then you are a bad person. Okay? So there is no wiggle room in that camp. There is,

Speaker 2: There's just no exception. There's no spectrum, there's no shades of gray. They just, that's their ideology and that's mainly the camp that is out to do harm to everybody else. <laugh>, oddly enough, that purely positive crowd never has anything positive to say and they go way outta their way to punish everyone that doesn't agree with them. So not all that different from today's political climate, <laugh>, right? Um, but that divide is there. And I don't, some people don't know that. Um, so I have to remind myself that some people don't know that. 'cause they might have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention it.

Speaker 2: And then of course, dog trainers are human, right? So you have the full spectrum of like, well, I think corrections should be as gentle as possible. And I think, you know, you got to use it responsibly and you gotta do this, you gotta do that all the way up to like, ah, we just, you know, punish dogs to teach 'em how to sit it, which nobody does that really. That's kind of what the, the, you know, purely positive crowd wants you to think. Um, I don't know anyone that does that. I've never heard of that.

Speaker 2: That honestly wouldn't be very effective. It wouldn't work very well. Um, but so you've got everything in between,

Speaker 2: Right? So I don't wanna put everybody in a box or in a category 'cause everybody's unique. We're all human beings, but there is a camp where there's just no room for anything aversive or corrective at all. And so that camp

Speaker 2: Is toxic, right? So a lot of the other people that are like, well, you know, I think you should do it this way and that way. And, and you gotta be careful and you should use the least in, there's this thing out there, the least invasive most, um, I don't even remember what it's what it's called. But, uh, they've got all these stupid acronyms, but at any rate, those people are wrong. <laugh>. Those people are just wrong. And that's, that's fine. Great. Lots of people are wrong, but these people that are like, Nope, no way.

Speaker 2: No how, never under any circumstances and you're evil, those people are poisoned. That camp is toxic and they are out to tear people in businesses like mine down.

08:00 — She discusses receiving increased criticism through social-media comments, messages, and other online attacks.

Speaker 2: Um, and so anyways, there's been a lot more hate lately. You get the keyboard warriors, you know, everyone's so tough when they're hiding behind their little computer screen. Um, and sometimes it comes in the form of like, comments on my social media. Sometimes it's an email. Um, a lot of times it's like a private message on social media, <laugh>, and there's just been a ton of it lately. And I just ignore it. I don't care about it. It doesn't bother me. I don't care. The only part that's annoying is I'm gonna need like a full-time person to just go through and block these people.

Speaker 2: <laugh>. That's the, that's the most irritating piece to this. Um, but I, I've noticed, 'cause I find it fascinating to be honest with you, and I have noticed some correlations that are really interesting and, you know, getting this stuff from time to time isn't really new. But what I've noticed over time is that the content I post that sparks this stuff, there's a pattern that I've noticed. And it's, if I post a video of a dog training with an e-collar and doing a good job, I might get some comments and some hate

Speaker 2: From some idiots. It happens. It's normal, it's a normal day, I don't care. But if I post a video of a dog post training, a lot of times this is when they're like back home with their owners, um, and they're sending me updates. And in this video, the dog is running around off leash, having an absolute blast time of its life. The happier the dog looks, the more freedom they're getting, the more hate it generates, the more messages it generates. So what does that tell you? Because it tells me a lot. So I've always said that this camp, this purely positive, everyone else's evil camp, they don't care about dogs.

Speaker 2: And I absolutely 110% stand by that. I don't think it's really about the dog. Um, I think it's about, it's just about them looking and feeling good about themselves and having a thing they can go after to attack and tear other people down. And in order to do that, they have to push the idea that they are right and everybody else is wrong. And when I post videos like that, it flies in the face of everything that they say. So like, I can post videos of dogs listening and doing a good job, but they're not always bouncing around with their tails wagging, right?

Speaker 2: 'cause they're working. That's what I'm showing. I'm showing the work.

Speaker 2: So they can say, oh, well that dog's miserable, right? They're being mean and militant with the dog. They're bullying the dog. The dog's afraid they can, they can say that stuff and maybe get away with it because you can't tell what's going on with the dog, especially to the average person, right? So an experienced person might look at that and say, yeah, whatever. Um, but when you post a video of a well-trained dog who's listening and they're off leash and they're running around having an absolute blast, what can they say about that? It's really dangerous to them in their ideology.

12:00 — She argues that reliable off-leash obedience challenges critics who claim e-collar-trained dogs are unhappy…

Speaker 2: And so you end up getting more temper tantrums, which is hilarious, frankly. So I just posted a video from one, one of my customers, their dog's name is Jack. And I think I got more negative comments and hate after posting that video than I ever have with any other single video in the past or picture, which I just found interesting because it, he is just like the happiest dog just running around, had a big stick in his mouth, um, bouncing around like a white-tailed deer out in the yard, out in the snow. And, you know, they were remarking on how fantastic he listens and how they can trust him now.

Speaker 2: And they never would've been able to do that before. And this is really dangerous to these people. They can't have this stuff out there.

Speaker 2: And so I just thought that that was really interesting. Um, but you know, if you didn't know that divide exists, it certainly does. Um, you need to have a pretty thick skin in this industry. So fortunately I was born with like crocodile skin, I guess. Um, but yeah, it's all just ideology and trying to beat people into submission. And you know, sometimes you have people that are, are just ignorant. Like they legitimately just don't know any better. Uh, and a lot of people that I meet, that's the case. Like, they just don't know any better because those people that I'm talking about, the ones with the agenda, they've become so loud and so overwhelming and they dominate the internet and they drown out the voice of reason.

Speaker 2: And so why wouldn't people believe them? It's, most of the information out there is coming from those people <laugh>. It's nuts. Um, and even, you know, people that should know what they're talking about that should, we should be able to trust like the, you know, American veterinary behavior, whatever it is. So I'm not even gonna try to say it. 'cause if I say it wrong, I could say the wrong people. But

Speaker 2: Professional, supposedly professional institutions of veterinary behavior will tell you that those people are correct. That you should never punish any behavior that your dog does. It's fucking insane, by the way. Absolutely insane.

Speaker 2: And people seem to mostly relate that to raising kids. And, and that's accurate. But it's not just kids either, guys, it's, it's me, it's you, it's adults, it's children, it's animals, it's everybody. 'cause behavior is, behavior is behavior. And brains are brains and no, no two are alike, but they all more or less put together patterns and learn from them. If they don't, then that's a learning disability, right? So if you don't make correction and punishment part of the pattern sometimes, then you completely lose that entire facet of training. You completely lose the ability to effectively inhibit behavior.

16:00 — She argues that excluding punishment removes an important training tool for inhibiting unwanted behavior.

Speaker 2: Doesn't make any sense to do that. Um, and to have professionals out there saying that that's correct is absolutely mind boggling to me. But that's where we are right now. That's where we are right now. But I thought it was interesting that I've noticed this correlation with the content that I, I'll have to play around with it, I'll have to play around with it. Um, but the fact that you could, to think that anybody, anyone, how, how mental do you have to be to see a video on the internet of a dog running around, having a blast and go, I'm gonna email that person and tell them they're an asshole.

Speaker 2: Like how, what kind of mental fucking gymnastics do you have to do to decide? Yeah, the person that created that is bad

Speaker 3: <laugh>.

Speaker 2: I mean, these people are so far removed from reality and they're dominating the information out there. And I really believe, like you gotta stand up guys. Like, 'cause you're gonna run into those people. Maybe they're in your family, maybe they're your friends, not all of them, but you probably know people like this. And when they see that prong caller or they see that eco or they see you correct your dog in any way, they're going to tell you you shouldn't do that. And that you are bad and that you are causing some kind of damage.

Speaker 2: They're going to tell you that. And if you feed into that and you start hiding it from them or lying about it, then you're part of the problem. I'm sorry, but you're part of the problem. So I understand not everybody wants to stand on a mountaintop and scream about it like I do, and I don't expect that. But really you should not have to hide the fact that you correct your dog when you need to. It is absolutely crazy to me that we live in a world where we have to hide that. But if everybody does it and everybody complies, that will not get better.

Speaker 2: My friend

Speaker 3: <laugh>,

Speaker 2: That will not get better. And I've heard things as nuts as in some countries, um, and provinces and, and whatever their passing laws that you can't even say no to your dog. Like you literally cannot say the word no to your dog.

Speaker 2: These are the things that we're voting on <laugh> or, um, I think it was Sweden. Don't quote me on that. Um, where they outlawed having a door on the crate. Like you can have a, you can have a kennel in your house. You can have a crate, but you cannot shut the door. Like there it has to be without a door. So your dog is always free to leave. Okay? So if I have a dog that goes nuts when I leave and chew holes in the walls and eats things he shouldn't and whatever, all this dangerous stuff and destructive stuff, now what I'm not allowed to contain my dog.

20:00 — She warns that increasingly restrictive beliefs could eventually discourage owners from containing or verbally…

Speaker 2: Like that's, and that's where this is going. It's no good. It's no good anyways. These people don't bother me a bit. Um, but hopefully if you run into these people, you're, you're a little bit more aware of what is occurring in in the industry and a little bit more, um, willing to just say, you know what? This is, this is what's working for us. Like I hear you. This is what's working for us. Like <laugh>, that's about as polite as I could ever tell someone to be, be I think obviously my approach is like, yeah, well why don't you screw off?

Speaker 2: 'cause you don't really know anything about dog training. Um, and it's funny because if you pay attention, you'll notice that these people that the trainers specifically that are pushing this purely positive ideology, they can't show you any dog training.

Speaker 2: They can show you tricks, they can show you stupid stuff, right? But they can't show you a dog going from bad behavior to good behavior under their method. They can't do it. They just cannot because it, it's not real guys. It's all fake. It's all lies. It's all lies. I'm not saying they can't teach a dog stuff, right? Because we use positive reinforcement to teach dog stuff all the time. Um, and it's a very powerful tool with dogs that are motivated by, you know, food or whatever it is you're using, but it doesn't make it non-negotiable.

Speaker 2: And at some point you have to have more than that. If you get a dog that's really fearful and won't eat food for training or you get a dog, um, that's really reactive and just doesn't care about the food 'cause they're more interested in going and attacking another dog or chasing a deer or whatever the case may be, show me, show me the change without using anything aversive. Like really Show me. I'm not one of those people that's like, Nope, I'm right, you're wrong. Like, I know that I'm right because I know that I'm right.

Speaker 2: I know from experience, I know from research, I know from hands-on work with hundreds and hundreds of dogs and working with other people who have worked with hundreds and hundreds of dogs. This isn't something I'm making up. It's not something I read on some stupid paper.

Speaker 2: I know this to be true from experience. Now if somebody is having a different experience, show me, show me proof. But they don't. They don't. And you go to their website and there aren't even dog training videos. There's just a bunch of crap about who they are and where they went to school and how they learned and all these stupid letters and that they put in front of their name because they're certified in this and certified in that. And in the end, what it boils down to is they don't know how to train a a damn dog.

Speaker 2: They know how to take a little pop quiz and sign off on a contract agreeing to never use a correction, and then they get the letters that they get to post on their website, certified pet dog trainer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't train a dog though.

Speaker 2: Anyway, that's probably enough of a rant for today. <laugh>, thanks for joining me guys. I look forward to the next one. Hopefully the next one would be a little more, uh, upbeat, right? I don't know. I'm pretty fired up right now, so I wouldn't say this was exactly like low key. Um, but it's interesting. It's just fascinating to me. And uh, it's not going away anytime soon. And that's cool. But something I wanted to touch on because I think a lot of people just aren't even aware of it at all. And, uh, it's a thing.

Speaker 2: All right, guys, till next time, <affirmative>.