In Dog Training The Process Should Be Dictated By The Results, Not The Other Way Around

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Off Leash and Unfiltered and asks listeners to subscribe.

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everyone, thanks for joining me today. Hopefully everybody's enjoying the snow melt. I know I am getting out there with the dogs. Actually, the dogs had a really exciting weekend last weekend.

My daughter had a dance competition and, well, you know, when you have dogs living with you for training, especially the dogs that are only with me for a couple of weeks, we can't afford to just take a weekend off from dog training. So they come with me, um, and I mostly go out to the car in between her numbers and, and work them outside around all the distractions.

And it's really great training. Um, and it works out just fine. But I got lucky this time and someone came out and told me I could bring the dogs in. So they got a really great day of training around lots of people, uh, little kids running around and lots of excitement and noises, and it was wonderful. We had a great time and, um, she's not done there. We have more coming up. So, um, maybe I'll get more of that rehearsal with the dogs. That'd be great. Um, but you know, yesterday, last night right before I went to bed <laugh>, I got a notification, um, of some nasty comment on one of my posts.

And it's not super uncommon, of course, but, so that obviously got me, got me going about, um, you know, just sort of the general attitude toward proper training, um, which I talk about a lot and I'm gonna talk about it again today, <laugh>. So hopefully you're not tired of hearing about this. Um, but for, let me just start by saying real proper training, guys, it involves more than just shoving cookies in a dog's face. And some dogs don't even want the cookies, which we're gonna get into that in a minute. Um, I'm not saying that that is bad to do that, but I'm saying if that's all you've got, you are a one-trick pony and that's not good training.

That training is not done.

So you have to have a downside for non-compliance. You have to. Otherwise, everything is just like a trick, right? It's just optional. The dog can do it or not, and there's no consequence. So it doesn't matter. And for that reason, real proper training with both positive and negative consequences, right, with the whole spectrum of consequences, is necessary for all dogs. And I know I've said that a lot in the past and you haven't heard the last of it. I think it's so important to talk about this because I still hear all the time people specify that their dog needed this training.

Their dog needed more than positive reinforcement, their dog needed something a little bit more, right? Implying that there's something wrong with their dog and that's the only reason their dog needed training. That the use of any aversives, um, or accountability for non-compliance.

04:00 — Kati says needing accountability does not mean something is wrong with a dog.

And that's just baloney. It's just not true. There's nothing wrong with your dog. Well, maybe there is if I haven't met your dog <laugh>, but even so, just that fact that your dog needed accountability, that doesn't make your dog special or weird or challenged or—it is just not. It's normal. Absolutely normal for any living, autonomous being. Um, so good training that involves the use of punishment for non-compliance. And that's not all we do. It's not how we teach things, right? So we'll get into that a little bit, but I'm not gonna spend a ton of time on it.

But we do include that in our programs because it's necessary. That is for all dogs. There are no exceptions, right? So when people think that because they have a dog that's really friendly and sweet or because they have a dog that's really small or any of these things, none of that matters.

It's not, it's just not about that. So you're trying to make it about the dog's personality and whether or not the dog is good or bad or easy or hard, none of those things matter. Those things might dictate a little bit what the training looks like from situation to situation, but it doesn't change the fact that the dog needs both reward and punishment. They need contrast to build behaviors and decrease behaviors. There are no exceptions to that rule. And I, I, I know I say this a lot too, but I don't, don't, um, I don't globalize a ton.

It's pretty rare that you'll hear me say all or none, always or never. Um, I really try to be very careful and precise in my speech. And when I say this, believe me, there are no exceptions, okay? Some dogs are easier than others. Some dogs you can get them to be pretty damn reliable without any corrections, right?

But they could be more reliable if there were corrections for not compliant. So you're leaving some progress on the table, you're leaving that opportunity open for them to disobey and potentially, you know, take off or get hurt or whatever the case may be if you don't involve the use of correction. So even if your dog is 99% great and you've never had to correct them, which by the way is extremely rare, right? So we're talking about dogs that are <laugh> one in a thousand or something. Um, even if you have one of those dogs, you are still leaving the door open to disaster by not pulling in the use of correction for non-compliance, right?

Because you've never had that conversation with your dog, which means the first time you have it, it might be too late, right? I prefer not to wait until my dog is running out into traffic to have the conversation. We have it before that <laugh>.

Um, so all dogs, there are no exceptions. So anyone that tells me, you know, I never had to correct a dog, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, like maybe you never had to in the sense that you were happy with what you had. But that doesn't mean that your dog was as trained as they could have been or as reliable as they could have been, or as safe as they could have been. Okay? So there's this narrative out there that if your dog knows what to do, they'll do it. That's ridiculous. They might if they feel like it, if they want to, if they're motivated to in the moment.

08:00 — Kati says competing motivations can override commands and describes absorbing training beliefs before becoming…

But if there's something else that's more motivating, then they won't. Like, this is simple stuff, guys. Like that's how that works. Um, and I'm not making fun of anybody 'cause I fell into that camp for a long time too before I was a dog trainer, before I knew any of this stuff. I mean, and not even consciously, but you're like subconsciously absorbing all of this information just from the people around you, from the classes you might attend, just from listening to people talk, talking to your friends, you know, magazines, internet ads on TV, just you name it, it is just, there's information coming in that's just false, right?

But it just, we are inundated with it. We are drowning in false information. And so without ever even having used a single brain cell to think about it, we already have these notions in our head. We already have these preconceived ideas about what is and what isn't. But we've never even really thought about it. We've just been told sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly.

And the idea is that you just train your dog by showing them what to do and giving them lots of food and practice, practice, practice. But unfortunately that's not enough. That's not enough. That is step one <laugh>, okay? Then at some point you have to raise the bar and require it. And that is the step nobody will tell you about. Now, when I say nobody, I don't literally mean nobody, but it's pretty damn close to nobody. You talk, you talk to 10 dog trainers, nine of them will not tell you that. And that's a conservative estimate.

<laugh>,

Nine of them will not ever tell you that you need to supply your dog with a downside for not complying eventually. They just won't tell you that. In fact, a lot of them will tell you that you shouldn't do that. That you're going to scare the dog, damage the dog, damage your relationship, it's gonna make your dog aggressive, your dog's gonna hate you. He doesn't understand why, like all this nonsense, nonsense, nonsense, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why you shouldn't do it, and it's absolute craziness. And so it pays to remember that anything your dog does is your responsibility entirely.

And so it's really important that we do use our brains to think critically about this and to make the decision that is best for us and our dog. Because you make no mistake, you are entirely responsible for the decisions your dog makes. Your dog is an autonomous living organism that makes choices.

12:00 — Kati explains that even nonaggressive dogs can injure people through jumping or leash pulling.

And I've compared it in the past to an autonomous weapon like a gun that can choose where to go and what to do. But even if we're not, that's more in the case of aggression. But even if we're talking about a dog that doesn't exhibit aggressive behaviors, they could still hurt someone. They could hurt themselves. So you could have a really sweet dog who hurts somebody because they're always jumping on people who knocks Grandma down and breaks her hip. I've had dogs that pull on the leash so hard, they've pulled their handlers down and broken their legs, broken arms, okay?

Those things, if you allow them to happen and you don't inhibit those behaviors, you don't train the dogs, so to speak. That's your fault. That's your fault. If you have a dog that will break its commands, right? It might break a down command and go run up to an aggressive dog or to somebody that's just scared of dogs, it might run in front of a car. If you have a dog that dashes through doors and gates into the road, right, or takes off and gets lost, that's your fault. Now, accidents happen. I'm not saying that they don't, but what I am saying is if you subscribe to the philosophy that punishment is bad and that you should not ever hold your dog accountable for the things that you've taught them, and so then ultimately they just don't do them and they go get hurt or they hurt somebody else or even die, and you have to scrape them off the pavement because you just never punished the behavior of running through a door.

You never punished the behavior of breaking a down.

You never punished jumping on people and then they, then they knocked someone down and they broke a bone. That's your fault. There is no other way to see that. And I'm not saying that I don't have a certain level of compassion for people when things like this happen. Obviously nobody intends for that to happen. But you do have a responsibility to inhibit dangerous behaviors. And if you're going to take your dog off a leash, then you also have a responsibility to inhibit breaking command. And so if your idea of training is that the dog always will just do what they know you want them to do and you should never correct them for anything, then you accept what you get.

You accept the cards you're dealt. Your dog breaks a command and goes and gets into a dog fight, runs in front of a car, bites a kid, whatever the case may be, then you just take responsibility for that because it's your fault. And a, a lot of times when I get phone calls, when I do these phone consultations and they're with people whose dogs have done these things, <laugh>, um, dogs that have slipped out the door, dogs that have attacked other dogs, the first conversation I always have with this person, and not to be rude, not to be judgmental, nothing like that.

16:00 — During consultations, Kati checks whether owners accept responsibility for incidents involving their dogs.

They're calling me to get help and trust me, I want to help them. It's one of the most gratifying parts of the job.

But the first thing I do is I find out if this person takes responsibility for what happened, right? Or if they're just coming here to save face and kinda look like they're doing something about it. Because I get those folks, they're just coming here to look good to the judge, but they don't actually intend on doing anything with it. And they totally blame the other person for what their dog did. Um, and I don't have a lot of tolerance for that. So I mean, I will tell them, hey, I would be upset if your dog did that to me.

If that happened to me, I'd be upset, right? Can they see that other person's perspective? Because even frankly, even if it was an accident and they had done everything they could, they should still be apologetic because it's still their fault, right? And I feel a lot more compassion and a lot more motivated to help someone who takes full responsibility for what their dog did.

My dog jumped on that person and knocked them over. My dog bit this kid. My dog hurt that other dog. My dog slipped out the door and I'll never forgive myself. You know, it's like, but people find a way to blame the other person. And I see it all the time. I have a lot of clients with dogs that have been attacked by off-leash dogs and it's extremely common for the owners of those dogs to blame them even though their dog was under control and often even on a leash. And they'll blame them. The mental gymnastics you have to do in your head, I don't even know, but it happens all the time.

But anyway, all this to say, everything your dog does is totally your responsibility.

And so wouldn't you want to do everything in your power to make sure your dog is under control and doesn't get hurt or killed and can't hurt anybody else and can't run away and get lost and all these other things? But yet we don't. We take the one way that there is to do that and ensure our dog's safety and ensure everyone else's safety. We take the one way there is to do that, and we villainize and demonize it and tear apart anybody that we see using it. And it's just insanity. So if you know your dog has a behavior that could lead to injury or even death, a hundred percent, it is your responsibility.

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20:00 — Kati links resistance to corrections with public messaging and introduces criticism of her training…

And you're going to need to use the full spectrum of consequences to do that, folks, okay? But the reason people don't do that is because of the narrative out there. And so I totally get that and that's why I do the show, guys. It's why I am open on social media. It's why I am very loud about all of this stuff, is the narrative out there is insane.

So the comment I got last night was about Hank number three. Um, I posted a video of him doing, doing some place training. He's kind of a nervous guy. Um, he is very easily stressed. He's tense, he's not super fearful, but he walks around pretty nervous, pretty anxious. Um, and that's just how he is. Okay? I didn't do that to him. We, it's not anything we did. He's like that. His owner told us he's like that when he came in, he was born that way. That's his genetics <laugh>. But so this person was just, I didn't even honestly read their comment in detail.

I kind of skimmed over it and just blocked them. But I picked up a few words along the way. Um, things along the line of us controlling everything he does and how terrified he is. And maybe I shouldn't be stimmed or have any collar, something like that.

I, I don't know. But, um, the ignorance is astounding and the vitriol and, um, just the intense contempt they have for anybody that doesn't subscribe to their false philosophy. It's a very flawed philosophy. And anybody that doesn't subscribe, the first sign that a philosophy is flawed is that anybody that doesn't subscribe to it, you automatically are filled with contempt for that person. So I wanna be very clear, I am not filled with contempt for people that don't use corrections. I am filled with contempt for the folks that lie about it, right? 'Cause the average everyday person that doesn't correct their dog and is afraid to or thinks that it's bad, they, the reason they think that is because that's what they're told.

And it is frustrating. But who could blame them? They don't know any better. Now if they did know better and they still choose not to, that's another story. And those folks are out there too, right? But so essentially what this person was saying is that because Hank is a nervous guy, now, they don't think this is what they were saying, but this is what they were saying. Because Hank is a nervous guy, he is just not entitled to training because he gets stressed because he's nervous. You don't get the training. We're not gonna give you the training that could save your life, that could give you more freedom.

Freedom that could give you more inclusion, that could make you safer, that could even make you more confident. We're not gonna give it to you because you are too nervous, so you don't get it.

24:00 — Kati says anxious dogs can improve with training but require more repetition, guidance, and…

That's not how it works. That's stupid. And most of the time, those dogs with this training improve. They improve. And you know what? They hate me for it. They hate all trainers for it that do this and do it well because it flies in the face of everything they're saying, right? But they'll pipe in in the middle phase of training where their dog looks nervous and, you know, make up all kinds of shit about the e-collar and the trainer and how cruel it is. Um, and it's all just garbage. And it's just baloney. It's all just baloney.

Um, those are the dogs that need it the most. Those are the dogs that have the most—stand to benefit the most from it. Um, and they're not easy. These are, these dogs are harder to train. Dogs like Hank that are stressed and anxious. We have to work them through a lot. We have to do more reps, we have to give more guidance. It takes longer, um, because they don't absorb information as quickly because they're uncomfortable. But a little bit of patience and some repetition goes a long way. And eventually accountability just like everybody else.

And they get there and it's really fun to watch them turn the corner when they start to really settle into it. And you see that confidence increase, that's really fun. Um, but those people will never see that. And here's the thing too. Dogs like Hank or dogs that are, because Hank's not super fearful. He's just a little uncomfortable. You get a dog like Hank or a dog that's really fearful, they don't want the food, guys. Hank, he'll take food sometimes and then he'll start to change his mind after a few reps. Sometimes he is not into it anymore.

He's not motivated by food. So even if he takes it, like he's really just not motivated by it, he could take it or leave it.

Um, and you get a fearful dog and they won't take it at all. It doesn't matter what it is. It could be raw chicken. They don't want it. Again, not because we made them that way, because that's how they are, right? The second they walk out of the house, it's like the end of the world. But that all just gets discounted. Oh, we must have done something terrible to the dog. No, dog walked through the door that way. Um, they don't want food. So what do you do? And the answer is nothing. Like they couldn't do anything.

There's not, that person that was criticizing me could not train this dog to do shit. Couldn't, 'cause the dog's not motivated by food. So what do you do?

27:00 — Kati argues that restricting training to one consequence type limits what trainers can accomplish.

We can train that dog and we are, and he is gonna do just fine. But if you're married to only one way of training, issuing one type of consequence, then you will be limited in what you can do. So I think Gary Wilkes said it best. I've mentioned him before. If you don't follow his Facebook page, you should follow it. He says, tell me what you can't do and I'll show you. No, tell me what you won't do and I'll show you what you can't do. It's a great saying. And it's so true. It's so true because if you are not willing to do X, Y, Z, then you can't get X, Y, Z on the other side, okay?

You can't get to the other side if you won't cross the bridge.

And so anyways, there's no helping those folks. Um, and I'm not interested in trying to convince anybody who doesn't wanna be convinced. I'm just here to give the information to the folks that want it, that are ready to receive it, that are curious about it. That's what I'm here for. I don't go to anybody else's website or social media page and criticize them. I don't do that. I don't have any desire to do that. I wouldn't benefit from that. But I have my own platforms where I intend to be as loud as I can possibly be about the things that I know to be true.

And there are things that I think to be true. And I will be clear about that if I don't know. There's a lot of uncertainty in dog training. There should be, there should be a lot of uncertainty when it comes to behavior. 'Cause behavior is not always predictable.

And my answer a lot of the time is, I don't know. We'll see. But I also feel very confident and comfortable with that because I know there's very little that can go sideways in a way that isn't repairable. Very little. I understand contingent consequences, consequences that are contingent upon behavior. I understand how to teach that. So things aren't random, so I don't need to worry, right? 'Cause the thing they want you to worry about anyway is just that correction in general is harmful. And I know for a fact that that is false. That doesn't mean there is no way to hurt a dog in a way that creates negative effects.

Of course there is, but most of the time that would be along the lines of abuse, right? Which means someone's just taking anger out on the dog and they're causing some kind of physical harm.

And it's random. It's not tied to the dog's behavior. And frankly, even that, even in those cases where that has happened, like before the dog came to me, they'll get right over it. If you know what you're doing, there's almost nothing where I am worried about permanent negative effects because it's just not how behavior works. Nothing's permanent. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be, right? But what people don't understand is then when we use negative consequence, they're tied to the dog's behavior in a way that puts the dog in control of it.

32:00 — Kati says discomfort about correcting dogs is normal, while maintaining that her corrections cause…

And they know that. We teach them that. And nothing we do causes physical harm.

Never, never. So it's all just fearmongering. It's all just fearmongering. I think it being emotionally difficult for people to correct their dogs is normal and healthy. I think our emotions are there for a reason. They serve a purpose, right? They keep you from being a total sociopath, <laugh>, but they also will lie to you, right? They also will pop up and surface when it's unnecessary, when they don't serve you well. And so you have to be able to leverage the rational side of your brain to evaluate if you should listen to those emotions right now.

Or if you should say, you know what, thank you, emotional side of my brain, for presenting me with your side of the story, but I don't need that right now.

It's not helpful right now because I can look at the situation and I can see that the rational decision I need to make is X, Y, Z in order to get where we're trying to go. And there isn't anything I need to worry about on the other side of that. Like I can evaluate the situation and I can make that choice, right? And that doesn't mean the emotions will go away, but it puts you in the driver's seat, right? Instead of just being a helpless victim of your emotions, much like dogs are to their arousal, right?

You don't wanna let your fears and your emotions control you. You want to allow them to present you with information, feel the feelings, but then you have to be able to think about them in a rational manner and actually make a choice that will serve you and your dog the best.

Right? But you can't have that conversation with these folks. You know, the ones that are just out for blood. Um, you can't have that conversation with them. They're not interested in that conversation. And the thing is, they're not interested in results. So like this person last night was criticizing me about Hank three and how terrified he was. Which, by the way, he wasn't terrified. He was a little stressed. Um, even if I showed him, I've only got him for two weeks, I would want him for longer than that if we were gonna really, uh, chip away at this nervousness and tension.

35:00 — Kati uses Hank's potential improvement to question whether critics would reconsider their objections after…

But let's just say I had Hank for four weeks, right? If I showed him three weeks from now—and he might turn that corner today, he's been actually looking pretty good today. I just made a post about that. But, you know, whether he turns the corner today or whether he would need a few more weeks to do that, if I posted that and I showed the world, hey, look at Hank. He did a 180. He's totally relaxed and comfortable and confident, having a good time listening, doing his commands. If I showed that, that person wouldn't care, they wouldn't change their stance, they would probably double down and criticize me more.

So what does that tell you? Because what it tells me is it has nothing to do with the dog. It has nothing to do with the results. And that's what you'll find a lot with these folks is it's not about—if you have people in your life that criticize you for the way you train your dog, the standard you hold your dog to, the tools you use, any of that stuff, you'll notice it's not about the results. So if it is about the results, and those people usually come around and they're like, oh, well that's interesting, and they're curious and they ask questions, right?

But the folks that just wanna demonize you, the bloodthirsty ones, the, it's the judgmental ones. It's only about process. They are absolutely obsessed with process. Has nothing to do with results, with making the dog safer, with getting the dog more comfortable, more confident, making your walks better, making your life with your dog better, being able to include them more, being able to give them more freedom. They don't give a shit about any of that. The only thing that matters to them is you used an e-collar to do it. Well, I mean, you can see that a mile away.

Like that is not, that's not, um, logical. <laugh>

Is the only term I can come up with right now. There's no critical thinking happening there, folks. Lights are on, no one's home. Um, so yeah, don't let those people get you down. Only you know what's best for you and your dog. But ultimately, at the end of the day, if you want to trust your dog more, if you wanna have a better relationship where you can include them, if you don't wanna be frustrated with your dog, if you don't wanna peel your dog off the pavement, um, you do need to include in your training accountability.

38:00 — Kati concludes that leash manners, polite greetings, and reliable off-leash commands require accountability.

There needs to be real consequences for not being polite, for not walking nicely on a leash, for jumping on people. There needs to be consequences for not doing your commands or holding them when I ask you to, because it's just not safe, least off leash, right? Or confine your dog to a life on the leash, that's fine. And some dogs that's necessary and no judgment there either, right? But if you're gonna take your dog off leash, then it's critical that they listen to you. And if they don't, well, don't cry to me. Don't cry to me if you are obsessed with process instead of results.

Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show, and I look forward to next time.