Feelings Lie (And So Do The “Experts”)

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Diamond K9 Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine, and its focus on…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond K9 Dog Training here in Biddeford, Maine, where we do mostly e-collar training, um, for off-leash obedience, behavior modification, and state of mind work. So helping people stop unwanted behaviors like reactivity, aggression, anxiety, that's really our specialty. Um, but also lots of off-leash stuff and also puppy training. We do puppy training too. So that's who we are and what we do. And this podcast is our way of reaching as many people as possible and really just trying to provide you with information that we know is hard to find.

Uh, and this, this is information that's accurate and honest, and we're very transparent about everything that we do, um, and what we see day in and day out that gets action. And we're talking about stuff that we're talking about with our hands-on clients every day because obviously if that's what we're talking about with them and doing with them every day, um, day in and day out, then that's obviously a good representation of what other people probably need.

Um, and so hopefully you'll have some takeaways from every episode that will help you in some way or other. That's really our goal. And today, uh, is an interesting one. And you know, it's funny because I find that there are so many parallels and I try not to go off on any crazy tangents, um, about this and start philosophizing <laugh>. I'm not trying to therapize you guys, really, but there are so many parallels between dog training and just life in general. So many parallels, um, you know, just with your life philosophy and your worldview and just how you go through the world and how you make decisions.

And it's crazy, um, how many parallels and how much overlap there really is with it. And so I, I always say that I feel like when you're training a dog, it, it's a journey, but it's not just for the dog. It's always just as much a journey for the person too, <laugh>. So, uh, which is cool because you can learn and grow together. Um, but so many of our decisions as humans are driven by emotion.

And I mean, you can already see where I'm going with this, right? You can see how that's problematic. If you're going to be effective in your dog training, you're gonna have to deal with that emotional human side of yourself. Um, because you can't let that make your choices for you. You can't let that dictate your training, right? But so many of our decisions are driven by emotion. And as a side note, I think that's also why we attribute all of our dog's behavior to emotion. And that's a mistake. Our dogs aren't doing things because of how they feel, not necessarily. We don't have any proof that that's the case.

We can see links, we can see correlations, right? But it's kind of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Like, just because you see two things doesn't mean that a particular one caused the other. Maybe one caused the other, maybe it didn't. Um, but even if it did, which one caused which? We don't know necessarily. So I don't, I don't wanna get too crazy here, <laugh> right up front in the beginning. Um, but you know, when you see fire and you see smoke, the smoke didn't cause the fire, right? But we always assume that emotions drive behavior, and that's not necessarily true.

04:00 — Kati argues that human emotions can hamper training progress and do not necessarily reflect…

Uh, but it is certainly true for humans. We see, see it all the time, <laugh>. Um,

And so that's kind of what I wanna talk about because I, I see that obviously hamper people's progress a lot. And so I think it's important. And this, again, this is stuff that'll like, might be profound for some people, um, in their own lives, nevermind dog training. But what you wanna remember is that your feelings, they lie to you <laugh> your feelings lie, right? And you can probably, if you sit there, you can think of a thousand examples outside of dog training of where that's true, right? So I can feel guilty about something, but that doesn't actually mean that I did anything wrong.

Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Right? So you can't take that guilt and let that be the deciding factor of reality. That's a mistake. Um, I can feel fat. That doesn't mean I am. I can feel validated. That doesn't mean I'm right, right?

I can feel slighted by somebody, but it doesn't necessarily mean I was. It doesn't necessarily mean they did anything wrong or that it was intentional. They might have no idea, right? So how you feel doesn't actually matter all that much. And so I'm not saying that you should take your feelings and just discard them completely, right? We're not, I don't wanna turn everyone into a bunch of sociopaths. Um, but you need to learn to like set them aside, right? So when you're working with your dog, which is primarily what we're supposed to be to be talking about here, you need to kind of remove yourself from that emotional state, or you need to acknowledge, right?

Acknowledge like, this is what I feel. But, but understand that doesn't necessarily mean anything and set it aside and really rehearse, just looking at the facts, just observing reality, cause and effect.

What do I do? What happens? What's the result? Is that good? Is it bad? Are we moving in the right direction or not? Right? And remove that emotional aspect of it. And this is obviously a, a more important thing for people that are dealing with behavioral issues with their dogs. So if you have a dog that deals with, here's a good example. You have a dog that has serious separation anxiety, right? Our inclination when we put the dog into their kennel and we walk away 'cause we have to go somewhere, the dog starts to have a meltdown, and the person then feels bad.

07:00 — Kati distinguishes guilt about crating a dog from practical concerns about the dog injuring…

They feel guilty, they feel like they're abandoning the dog. They feel like they're like, maybe they're even abusing the dog in some way, right? But none of that is actually true. They're just putting the dog in a crate so that it will be safe so they can go complete this other engagement that they have, right? We all have things that we need to do. Um, so they're not doing anything wrong, but yet they feel terrible.

So that's a prime example of how your feelings lie to you, right? Now, if you have a concern about the dog hurting themselves in the kennel while they're having a meltdown and you're gone, that's valid, right? But that's not a feeling. That's the logical part of your brain saying this is a thing that could happen and we should pay attention to that. It's not just an emotion, it's thinking through a potential outcome which is healthy. And we should do that. We shouldn't worry obsessively, right? So it's a balance because it's like our emotions are trying to like protect us and protect our loved ones and our pets, right?

But they lie to do that, lie, lie, lie. It's all just survival. It's a lizard brain. It's not all real, right? Now, sometimes there can be important information. Like if, for instance, if we never listened to our fear, we would probably all be dead <laugh>. So I'm not saying discard this, I'm just saying recognize, just because you feel something, you need to take that second step and evaluate if it's warranted, right? Logically, does it make sense to pay attention to that or not? And so in dog training, that really is a skill to be built for the human.

It really truly is.

And so in the case of that separation anxiety, we're going to tell people to correct their dog for that business, right? You put your dog in the kennel, the dog starts to fuss. You need to be able to correct your dog in that moment. And once again, we start with the guilt and the I feel bad, <laugh>, right? So we, and we gotta deal with this stuff because it, it will get in your way forever. And so if we can remove that emotional aspect and go, okay, I'm gonna look at the facts here. I'm gonna put my dog in the kennel, which is the smart thing to do because that's where they're the safest.

I'm going to provide a correction for fussing because I'm hoping that maybe I can stop the fussing and interrupt the escalation to dangerous behavior, right? That's what we're hoping to do when we provide a correction to a dog that's exhibiting separation anxiety.

And we got the lizard brain part of us that will say, you're being mean to the dog, you're hurting the dog. They don't understand. This is going to make them hate the kennel. But that's all speculation and it's all very emotional. But if you can kind of set that piece of you aside and be a scientist about it, and it helps to acknowledge that you have the dog's best interest in mind, right? So if you were a psychopath and you were sadistic and you just wanted to put your dog in a cage and torture it, then you probably wouldn't even be listening to this podcast <laugh>, I hope.

But that would be a different story. But that, that's not what you're doing. That's not what anyone's ever doing. Nobody wants to do that.

People are doing this stuff because they love their dogs and they want the best quality of life for themselves and their dogs. They want the best relationship. They want their dog to be safe, they want their dog to be happy, and they need to be happy too. So your dog needs to fit into your life. So not everyone, everyone can stay home all day with their dog or should they. It's not healthy, okay? And so caving to that and catering to that and just, well, I guess the dog needs to be with us all the time.

12:00 — Kati questions relying on constant companionship or babysitters to accommodate separation anxiety.

We'll have to go everywhere with us, and we can't leave the house. And if we do leave the house, we'll have to find a babysitter and, you know, because we're too emotional to try something that might work. That's not compassionate, it's not compassionate or fair, not to you, not to the dog, right? And then eventually there will come a time that you can't do either of those things. You can't take the dog with you and you can't find someone to watch the dog. And then what's gonna happen?

So again, that's a logical thought process of like, what if this thing happens? What's the plan? Right? So management always fails eventually. I say that all the time. Um, way better off to try to fix the problem or make it better. Um, but so that, that emotional piece will get in your way. It'll foul up your whole process. It will convince you not to make progress. So again, I'm not saying discard your emotions, but learn to understand that sometimes they're lying to you. They're not accurate. And this has helped me tremendously in my relationships with other humans, right?

Someone will say something or do something that makes you feel a certain way. And the biggest mistake you can make is to just react to those feelings without giving it any thought. And how many of you have been in that position where like you immediately feel a thing and like if you said something right then, it would be bad if you responded right then. But you kind of go home and a couple days go by and we kind of, oftentimes you hear people say, well, I cooled off, you know, or I got over it. And like, what really happened is you went home and you had time to actually think about it and think about the facts of like who this person is, what they've actually shown you over time, what your relationship has been, what their character is like, and you come to the conclusion that that isn't actually what they meant or that's not actually what they were doing.

Now that could be right or wrong, right? But the point is, emotions are sudden and oftentimes inaccurate because their job above all else is, is to keep you safe in every way, shape, or form. And so there's gonna be a million false alarms. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you, it's just, it's just the way it works. It's a very primitive piece of us, right? You gotta use that more advanced cognitive ability to think things through a little bit more. And it, it's like that with your dog training. And now I've seen people get stuck.

15:00 — Kati describes clients whose training stalls because they have not implemented the first week’s…

I have absolutely had people go through an entire program and get absolutely fucking nowhere, absolutely nowhere. And they'll ask me, well, when are we gonna do this? Or when are we gonna do that? And my answer is, we're not, we're, we're never gonna get there because you still haven't done the stuff we covered on day one. Sorry, we can't do day three. We can't, or week three, we can't do week four or week five because you still haven't done week one, because we're still controlled by our emotions. And that's why it's so important for me to be honest and upfront and very direct with people on the first, first time I see them.

You know? And I am often like labeled, you know, blunt or harsh or, or whatever the case may be. And that's okay, I'll take it. It's fine. I don't do it to be mean.

Um, in fact, I totally get it a lot of the time. And I, I can see exactly where they're coming from, right? But if I don't tell them that they're going to have to toughen up a little bit and they're gonna have to learn to set those emotions aside and trust me a little bit and try some things and believe what they see over what they feel. If we don't have that conversation, then they just waste their, their time and money. And it's not just your feelings that lie to you. There are a lot of entities out there that are preying on that very aspect of you.

And I know this because I was, I was not one of the people that are preying on you, but I was one of the people, um, that bought into this bullshit. So how many times have you heard that you should never use negative consequences? I mean, that sounds absolutely bullshit, crazy to me that anybody could think that or say that. But nowadays it's very common. It's really, really common. And what's dangerous now is everyone points to the science, quote unquote, and all these scientific studies, quote unquote.

Um, and it's not, it's just not, guys, I'm sorry, it's not science. Um, if anyone's answer to anything is just science, you should run. You should just frigging run. Um, because that's not an answer. It's not an answer, it's not a fact, it's not evidence, it's just a word and it's meaningless. So someone just telling you that there are studies doesn't mean anything. So if you're actually interested in the real science, then go looking for it. But you're not gonna find much. That's the problem. 'Cause there is none, there is no real scientific studies devoted to the stuff that we do.

There just isn't. So if you actually have someone citing a scientific study to you that has anything to do with punishment or corrections, what you're gonna find if you actually go find it and you look into it, is either that it, it doesn't exist or that it's actually a study on abuse. So that's not helpful. It's not helpful. Or they'll take things from the study that sound good or sound bad, and they'll just state it as, as a fact that should matter to you. For instance, they will say, if you correct a dog,

19:00 — Kati questions whether stress responses and cortisol measurements alone establish that corrections are harmful.

that they have a stress response, right? Sometimes they point to cortisol levels, which by the way, this just all just talking about it makes my skin crawl. 'Cause it's stupid <laugh>. But if you wanna go there, go there. Um, and here's the thing. Even if those things are true, can you not ask yourself, well, so what? Like, what does that mean? Does it matter? Right? So that's the other piece. It's like, okay, so you can tell me this happens, that happens. Now tell me why it matters. It fucking doesn't. That's why they can't tell you why it doesn't matter.

And if you really pay attention to real studies that have been done, you're gonna see most likely

that they find that dogs that are only getting constantly rewarded actually have higher stress levels. But I'm not here to just throw random facts at you without being able to cite specific of the studies. So we're not gonna go there, we're not gonna go there. But just because somebody can rattle off a quote unquote supposed fact, right? First of all, it doesn't mean it's real, doesn't mean it's true. And even if it is true, it doesn't mean it matters. So what if a dog gets stressed out for a second? Who cares? That might be necessary.

That's a normal, healthy part of life, by the way. So you look at zoo animals in the zoo, okay? They have no predators and no fear, right? They're not getting chased around—the, the zebras aren't getting chased around by lions. This might seem like a good thing. Maybe it is. I don't know. If I had to guess, though, I would say it's actually probably not a great thing. It's not natural. So in the wild, a zebra would have to be on alert all the time.

22:00 — Kati contrasts temporary stress responses with chronic stress, describing temporary alarm as normal.

That's natural. They would be chased on occasion where they would be startled on occasion. And that for those moments, they would have an episodic stress response. Not chronic stress—doesn't last forever, right? But in the moment its alarm is going off that it needs to protect itself, and then eventually it decides everything is safe and that stress response comes down. And guess what? That's normal and healthy. And we all experience that on various levels from day to day and week to week and month to month, right? It's when you're in a state of constant stress and anxiety with lots of unknown question marks and lots of fear, and that never comes down, it's always high.

That's damaging. You can see how that would start to wear on you and cause problems. Like, a, a lot of us have been there where we've experienced long periods of high stress and it's not good for us. And we start to see the side effects of that. But episodic stress, the, "Oh my God, I left the stove on and the house is full of smoke." It's not gonna kill you guys. Like, it's just, it's just a normal part of life. And it's the same for your dogs. A little bit of stress is not gonna kill them.

It's very normal and healthy. In fact, if you try to shield them from that, you go backwards and you create a softer, more sensitive, more fragile dog, right? I always say if you bubble wrap your dog, they turn to glass. Same thing for people. No different, right? But what's what the ultimate kicker is really about all of this is if you're not willing to do things that create a temporary stress response for your dog, then you end up with a dog that's more chronically stressed out. So take the separation anxiety example, right? It's like we could correct our dog and they're going to have a moment of stress, maybe a minute of stress, maybe a few minutes of stress.

Maybe they're gonna lay in their kennel and shake for a couple minutes going, "Holy crap, what just happened?"

Right? And they don't know yet. Maybe they don't, they don't have the pattern put together. They're not sure what happened or why. Um, and maybe you're gonna have to do it again maybe a few times until they start to put the pattern together, right? And what's gonna happen though is they're gonna put the pattern together and then they're gonna be quiet and they're gonna stop, and they're gonna stop trying to chew their way outta their crate, ripping their teeth outta their mouth, and eventually they're gonna go to sleep. And then next thing you know, it's, "Oh, well, I guess this is fine," right?

25:00 — Kati argues that brief stress from corrections can relieve ongoing stress associated with separation…

So now you've taken a problem, something that's been stressing the dog out every single day when you put him in there to go to work or whatever it is, every day, all day, dog's stressed out, every time you gotta leave the house, dog's stressed out.

And now by providing a few moments of episodic stress, you can cure them of that chronic stress. And if you can't see the value in that kind of a trade-off, then there's just no helping you <laugh>. There's just no helping those people, right? So it comes back to what I said before. Everybody wants their dog to be better, in a better headspace, happier. We wanna be happier. We want things to work better. And that's why you're doing what you're doing. So you have to remind yourself of that, right? I have a client right now that has to correct her dog on a hundred, on her e-collar.

That's maximum potency because he wants to kill other dogs and she feels bad correcting him. She feels bad correcting her dog who has gotten away from her in the past and attempted to kill other dogs. I'm just gonna leave that there, right? That's just the human part of us. But it's really obvious looking at a case like that, that that guilt is wildly misplaced. There is absolutely no reason for that person to feel bad for what she's doing, correct? It is absolutely 100%. There's beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is the right thing to do for her, for her dog, and for everybody else around them.

For everyone else they're gonna pass on the street.

It is her responsibility. Even so, that guilt has to be set aside to be effective. You know? And I wanna point out too, that even if you do what's necessary, if you're still wrestling with that guilt, your dog is gonna feel that. It's still going to affect your results. If you correct your dog, but you feel bad correcting your dog, you're gonna be soft in ways that you're not noticing, and it's going to hamper your results. People sometimes almost will correct their dog and then immediately coddle them afterwards. So you're just creating a perpetual cycle of correction, love and reward, correction, affection and reward, um, which is gonna bite you in the butt.

It's gonna bite you in the butt. But that's it. So think about it like you'll start to notice these moments where you're kind of making decisions based on your feelings. Don't do that. Catch yourself doing that. Set your feelings aside and do what you think is truly the right thing for everybody. And see what you get. Really observe your results and make your adjustments based on your results. Not necessarily in the moment even, but long term, right? So sometimes things look terrible in the moment. Sometimes we have to give dogs corrections where they vocalize,

29:00 — Kati uses rock swallowing to explain her rationale for strong corrections and weighing immediate…

Right? It's not easy, it's not the fun part, right? If I have a dog that swallows rocks that can kill a dog, the next time I see that dog even think about picking up a rock, right? They put their nose down to sniff a rock. And I know based on our history, the next thing that dog's gonna do is put that rock in its mouth. I'm going to a hundred for five seconds on that e-collar. 'Cause that dog is not gonna pick up another rock and put his life on the line and cost you thousands of dollars to <laugh> to rush it to the emergency vet.

Um, that's the right thing to do. Is that dog gonna be stressed out for a minute? Hell, yes, they are. But you might've just added eight years to the dog's life. You might've given the owner way more peace of mind. You might have made walks way less frustrating. All these things. Everything's always a trade-off. And you have to have a, you have to be able to realistically observe and assess what that trade-off is and if it's worth it. And you have to really look at your results long term, right? So if I'm making my dog scream when I correct them on the e-collar for something, and I'm doing that constantly, then maybe something's missing, right?

Because that's not how it should look.

Right? There are lots of things you're gonna have to do more than one correction. There are lots of things you're gonna have to chip away at and work your dog through. But generally speaking, those kinds of big corrections, they're not something we have to do a lot of, right? They're sort of a thing that you just do. And if you're doing it properly and you're linking it to the behavior properly, that behavior goes away. And then the corrections go with it. You don't have to do it anymore. Now, when we're talking about something like separation anxiety, it's generally somewhat gradual, but you see improvement every day, every day, every day.

Oops, turn that off. So I have a dog here right now. Her name's Betsy. She had some confinement anxiety in the kennel first night. She must have woken me up 10 times. I did have her e-collar on her, thankfully, and I was able to settle her down each time. But she piped up quite a bit. The next night, I think it was three times. The next night, she pretty much slept through the night. But she woke me up once early in the morning, and then the next night, silence.

Silence. But I'll keep the e-collar on her at night, um, for a while in case that behavior regenerates at all. I can address it. Because what happens is if you don't address it, then you start to go backwards again. So we don't wanna give her any opportunity to rehearse that, um, without the correction occurring. So we're gonna leave that e-collar on for a while, um, to make sure that she's good and comfortable in that crate and she's not gonna vocalize anymore, right? But so now she's settled in her crate and she, she's happy to go in there at night, and she goes in and she lays down and, and I go to bed and she's quiet all night.

Fantastic. Everybody's more comfortable now, right? But it's one of those things

that you gotta do and you gotta stick with it. Um, but I thought this was an important one because I just see so many of these decisions dictated by feelings or at least impacted by feelings. Um, and that should not be your driver of your decisions, guys. It's okay to have them, and you should pay attention to them. You should acknowledge them, but they shouldn't be the driving force behind your decisions, especially with your dog training <laugh>. Okay? So pay attention to that. You know, throughout the day when you're interacting with your dog, when you're making choices about your dog, say, okay, I'm recognizing that this is how I'm feeling about this, but logically, first of all, how's that been working for me?

33:00 — Kati urges owners to try unfamiliar approaches, observe results, and question conflicting claims online.

<laugh> Um, and logically, what do I think I should do? And what would be the result of that? And make your decisions that way, right? And sometimes you're not gonna know what the results will be because you're doing something new, and the only way you're gonna know is to try.

So do that. You gotta put a little trust in yourself sometimes to, to try new things and observe your results and believe what you see with your own eyes in, in spite of the crap you're seeing on the internet. Because there are agendas out there and ideologies out there, and they're just beating you into submission. They're just telling you lies upon lies, upon lies. And then unfortunately, the people who don't know how to think for themselves kind of get sucked into that. And their intent isn't to lie, but they're ignorant. So they perpetuate the lies and it keeps people stuck.

It keeps people stuck, and it gets people hurt and it gets dogs hurt.

Um, so nowadays, unfortunately, we have a lot of crap being disguised as compassion. And it's not, it's not compassion at all. It's just mythological ideology. And it's false. It's false. And that's it for today, guys. No, I'm starting to go off on a tangent here. But so pay attention to how you're feeling, um, and set it aside and think logically about what you're doing and what the next, you know, right thing is to do, um, in your situation with whatever your dog is struggling with. And, um, good luck. It's tough stuff, tough stuff. But you know, I, I take it all for granted because I see the good that comes out of it every day.

And I know, I know that the dog isn't going to be messed up. I know that it's not going to damage the relationship. I know that because I've done it so many times, and I do recognize that when a client comes in here, they don't know that. I'm just another person saying something different. That doesn't mean what I'm saying is true. And I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, by the way. They can see for themselves. In my opinion, it's, it's pretty obvious right off the bat. Dramatic, dramatic results, life-changing stuff.

All right, guys, that's it for today. Thanks for joining me, and I look forward to the next one.