One Of The Biggest Fallacies In Dog Training—Extinction

00:00 — Kati Peppe opens Off Leash and Unfiltered with a trigger warning and asks listeners…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everyone, thanks for joining me for another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. Hope everyone's doing fantastic this morning. Um, my morning was a little chaotic, um, but doing, doing well.

My husband hit a deer this morning and I was just thinking, um, it's amazing that you can actually live in Maine so long and not hit a deer because there's just so many of them, especially where we live. Um, the particular route that we live off from, 'cause we live on a, a little dead-end side road, um, in western Maine.

And I mean, there's no traffic there, but you get out to the main road, um, and, you know, there's a lot of commuters and just a ton of deer, like, just swarms of like, you can't drive it without seeing deer. It's almost, almost that bad. Um, and so one leapt out in front of him this morning before he had even finished fully accelerating <laugh>. So you get to the end of our road and then you take another little side road, and then you come to the main road and you turn onto the main road. And he wasn't even done accelerating and a deer ran out in front of him.

Um, and he just, it hit it full force and, but the deer ran off into the woods. So unfortunately, I, I have to assume the deer's not okay. So that, that part is sad. <laugh> Um, hate to think that it's running around the woods just dying a, a long, slow, miserable death.

But, um, I dunno, those creatures are tougher than you would expect. So maybe it's okay. Um, I also hit a deer a few years ago and my experience was a lot different. I actually hit it going very slowly, just kind of tapped it. And I actually do think this deer was totally fine and, and just ran off and probably had no issues. Um, but, so that was my morning, chaotic. And so now it's, you know, trying to rearrange the whole week because his car's bumper's now like dragging on the ground and his headlights are smashed and whatnot.

So that's what we're doing over here. <laugh> I'm also prepping for another week of vacation, and so we're winding it down with the dogs. Uh, Pretzels has been here for boarding. She leaves this afternoon, and Drexler and Birdie are the only trainees that are left. Birdie goes home later today, so that's exciting.

03:00 — Kati reports Drexler’s progress and prepares to show her owners what she learned before…

And Drexler is supposed to go home now, tomorrow morning. She was supposed to go home earlier in the week, it didn't work out. Um, so now she's gonna go home on Saturday morning, super excited to show their owners everything they've learned. Um, Drexler's come a wicked long way, really, really pleased with where she is. Birdie has too, but Birdie's still just a, a spaz at heart. <laugh> She just has an insane amount of drive. Um, and so her owners, we really need to spend a little extra time with them, showing them how to work her through her stuff because she's got a lot of stuff <laugh>.

So, um, but exciting, exciting. I'm, I'm thinking maybe, maybe, um, for the last portion of their go-home lesson, maybe we actually go to the park so that they can see her around triggers and work her through that in real time.

Um, because we can only create so much of that here at the training center, um, where she's familiar with the environment and the triggers are all very predictable and, and she's familiar with the other dogs here and all that stuff. So, so that might be a good idea. Um, it used to be that I would do go-home lessons at the park regularly, um, but that was before I had this facility. So now we usually, we usually do them here. Um, but with some dogs, if they have a lot of stuff going on, uh, with their nervous system, with their drive, um, and we know they're a challenging dog, sometimes we will still opt to, because otherwise, guys, we can teach everything here.

Um, and really the only thing that changes is the level on the e-collar. When you go out into the wild, like everything really looks pretty much the same.

But if you have a dog that's really intensely reactive, um, is really intensely drivey, high-energy, spazzy, and like still has some of that stuff going on, it can be really hard to teach someone how to work a dog through that. So maybe we'll, maybe we'll do some at the park. Maybe I'll get some of that on video. And you guys can see that, um, on social media. So anyway, let's talk about dog training. Um, <laugh>, I was of course on Facebook and just briefly saw a thing about extinction. Now, extinction, you've probably heard that term.

Like if you've ever researched anything about dog behavior, especially like how to stop behaviors, you've probably seen things in regard to extinction. And extinction is a load of bullshit. So I'd like to talk about that today. So what is extinction exactly? When people say extinction in dog training, what they usually mean is you just make sure that there's no positive reinforcement and that should reduce and eliminate the bad behavior that you wanna eliminate. In other words, if your dog counter-surfs, right, but you make sure there's never anything up there for them to get, the counter-surfing will go away.

06:00 — Kati describes extinction advice as withholding attention to stop jumping and questions why it…

If the dog jumps on you and you just don't give them attention, the jumping will go away. Things of this nature. So that's what people usually mean when they're talking about extinction. Now, <laugh> not to be rude, <laugh>, but I think most people, that's the first thing they try, right? So it seems to me we should all be pretty clear on the fact that this is false.

But instead, what's—it's in, in, in human psychology fascinates me. Instead, what happens is people just think there's something wrong with their dog. Their dog needs something more. Um, no, there's nothing wrong with your dog. Yes, your dog needs something more. All dogs need something more <laugh>. So extinction doesn't work, guys. So it may over time make the behavior lessen some, right? Just naturally, because that's the science of the brain. Like it's not as rewarding. It pays off less. I'm probably gonna do it less. Uh, maybe, maybe not. Maybe I'm gonna do it more, right?

Especially if you've learned in the past that there can be a big payoff. Maybe you're gonna keep checking, keep checking, keep checking, right? Kind of like gambling.

Um, but it doesn't, it's not gonna eliminate a behavior. And here's one of my favorite human examples of this phenomenon, and I think it's a great illustration of how it just doesn't work. Even if—and this is actually a little different in the sense that you know it's not gonna work and you still do the behavior anyway—your dog doesn't know, right? There's no way for your dog to know for sure that a behavior isn't gonna pay off, right? They judged by the history and maybe it hasn't paid off in a while, but once upon a time it did.

And it could again, right?

09:00 — Kati uses animals revisiting dry watering holes to illustrate her argument that unrewarded behaviors…

The African wildlife drinking holes, right? The water dries up, they still go check, right? They're, they still go, even though the water's gone, they're gonna come back again and check for water. Now, even if that water hole was never going to have water in it again, do you think they're going to stop checking? It might lessen. Is it going to go away? No. Why would it, why would it go away? So here's, here's my favorite example. You lose the power, okay? So, you know, your power's knocked out, knocked—you don't have any power, and you know that, right?

So this makes this an even stronger example really, than the dogs and their behavior that we're talking about, because like I said, there's no way for your dog to know that something's not gonna pay off. But when your, when you have no power, you know turning things on isn't going to work.

But what do you do? Five minutes after you lose the power, you go flip the light switch. Oh, turn the lights on. At least I do, right? And then you're like, oh, that's right, no power. Duh. Right? So you go back to doing whatever you're doing. You light the candles, whatever it's you gotta do. If, you know, an hour later, what do you do, <laugh>, you go try to turn the lights on again, right? Especially if you leave home and you come back, right? Oh, turn the lights. Why? Because it's a habit. So if you have a very, right, 'cause this is something we do so many times a day, every day, every day, every day, it's a habit.

That neural pathway in the brain is so well worn. Then to think that you're just gonna remove reinforcement, to think the behavior's gonna go away is silly. Even though you know it won't work, you still do it.

Extinction is a lie, right? Now, you are going to learn in that sense much faster than a dog because you have the ability to process that. You know another attempt won't pay off. Like, you know that. A dog never knows that. There's no way for them to know that, 'cause they just don't have that part of their brain. Um, so yeah, we keep trying to flip the lights on even though we know, we know it's not gonna work, right? It's a habit. Now, let's say every time you went to flip the lights on, you got a little shock.

12:00 — Kati introduces a hypothetical static shock from a light switch to argue that uncomfortable…

There was a little static shock for some reason.

Now what? Now the next time you go to turn the lights on, your brain might go, mm, bad idea. So here's the thing, guys. Negative consequences, uncomfortable consequences. You know, we talk a lot about how we're not doing it to be mean, right? We're not doing it to be militant. We're not mad at the dog, we're not frustrated at the dog. We don't wanna hurt the dog. Like, and all those things are true. We're not saying they're untrue. All of those things are true. But here's the thing, even when we do that, that's all coming from an emotional place, right?

Break it down and really look at it scientifically, which is funny because of course all the people that are opposed to this will say, we're ignoring the science. But it's actually completely the opposite, right? They're totally gaslighting you because the science is, that's how the brain works.

And the example with the lights is a perfect example. Your brain is going to learn way faster to abandon that habit if something unpleasant happens, right? Rather than just there's no lights. And that's why just withholding food is not an option. It's not gonna work. Especially if we're talking about a behavior that the dog really super enjoys doing. Okay? Withholding reinforcement is not enough. The goal is to cultivate real long-term change. And so if you are going to teach the brain to rewire and make different neural connections and abandon old ones, you have to give it a good reason.

And unfortunately, just withholding reinforcement, I'm not gonna say it does nothing, although sometimes it does nothing, especially if the dog is still able to perform a behavior that it really, really enjoys, right? 'Cause that's so self-reinforcing and enjoyable. But even if it's not, even if it's a behavior and they get no reinforcement from it, and they're really just doing it because it's habit. And we'll get into another example of this. Um, just withholding that reinforcement is, is such a subtle change. It's not going to be enough of a catalyst for the brain to go, oh, let me rearrange things, right?

But you add a negative consequence and suddenly you expedite this whole process because now the brain says, oh, well, not only was there no reinforcement, but that was actually really unpleasant.

We should do less of that, right? And a lot of this depends on the dog too and how intense the dog is. A good example too is not just bad behaviors, but even obedient stuff. So you have a dog, you give a command, they run through every other command they know, right? Every other behavior. They're not doing the thing you ask them to do, they're doing other stuff. It's like, okay, you could just repeat the command and withhold food until you get the right behavior and you might make some progress over time. And if you wanna spend thousands of hours doing that, go ahead.

16:00 — Kati recommends adding negative consequences rather than only withholding praise or food when a…

But especially if you have a dog that's really spazzy, like Birdie, you're gonna stay stuck in that loop forever. Okay? So instead of just withholding reinforcement, withholding praise, withholding food until the dog gets it right, try inserting negative consequence for getting it wrong, right? No, we're not mad. We're not doing it to be mean. We're not doing it to be militant. We're doing it to help the brain change. Guys, this is a, it's a scientific process. We do what facilitates the best results. Okay? So a good example is Birdie. And this is super, super common.

If you tell her to sit, she'd lay down. I can withhold food if she lays down when I say sit. It will, it will never change. <laugh> It, it will never change.

So we've added accountability for that. And we started lower and we worked our way up to clarify things, right? To make sure she hadn't conflated the words sit and down so we were fair, right? But if we say sit and she lays down, there's stim, we guide her up into a sit, we shut off the stim, good. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat, right? And then stim gets hotter because Birdie is one of those spazzy dogs. She will not slow down to think and process and execute. It's just, she goes right into habits, habits, habits, habits, right?

'Cause she's always aroused and she's always stimulated. Habits, habits, habits. Instead of thinking what was asked for.

Um, and so if we don't insert a negative consequence for doing the wrong thing, let's just do the wrong thing forever. Now, in that particular example, maybe it's not the end of the world. A lot of times I don't really care if a dog lays down when I say sit, right? But the reason we might hone in on something like that with a dog like Birdie is for that exact reason. So we're teaching her to stop and slow down and actually think about what I asked for and process it. Teach her it's important to listen to what I'm asking for and train her brain to actually process what needs to happen, right?

Because we wanna slow her down. Her brain is a bazillion miles an hour. Guys, if you follow my social media, I think I have a video posting today actually. So when this comes out, it should already be out, um, of her <laugh>. And it's funny because <laugh>, I kind of, I put kind of, um, a, a tagline on the front of the video, a caption, like right across the front of the video that is gonna raise some eyebrows and upset people because it says something to the effect of, she screams every time, <laugh>.

But if you watch the video, you'll see that the thing that's making her scream is when I break her, when I release her from command, that's when she screams. Um, so I just, I dunno. I like to get people going, you know how I am, so <laugh>. We'll see how that goes. Um, but she, she, she has a hard time listening when she gets super aroused and stimulated, which is pretty much all the time, and she'll do it. We've been working on that off switch and she has come a very long way, okay? But if she has the zoomies and I tell her to lay down and she lays down, when I release her, she literally screams. That's how spazzy she is, guys.

20:00 — Kati frames Birdie’s training as changing her state of mind, while acknowledging genetics limit…

So we, we don't want to leave her navigating through the world, just rehearsing spazzy, spazzy, spazzy, spazzy, spazzy. Um, so it's not just about obedience, right? It's about state of mind. It's about helping the dog actually change the wiring in their brain. And there's a ceiling, right? 'Cause there's genetics.

So we had, I don't know, we've had lots. But Hank comes to mind, Hank the black Lab, who was like pretty super mellow, low-key, um, very easy for him to think and process and execute even though he was an excitable Lab. It was like normal level of excitement. Um, Birdie is never gonna be Hank, right? Not 'cause she's a bad dog, not because Hank is a better dog, but two very different brains. Super different. And Birdie is absolutely a bird dog. Like she is just loaded with drive. She's super fun. But she's a spazz case, man.

<laugh>, she's absolutely a spazz case. Um, and so we want to use and leverage this stuff to help her be the least spazzy version of herself she can be, right? So she can still get excited and have fun at our discretion, but we're really teaching her how to navigate through the world a little bit differently.

How to prioritize her handler over the environment. How to shut off when she's feeling that rush of adrenaline. How to resist that. How to resist those impulses. How to listen to the words that are coming out of our mouth. How to execute when it's hard, right? And we're chipping away, chipping away, chipping away at the craziness so it'll get easier and easier for her and she'll be more and more manageable and enjoyable for her family. And without negative consequences, guys, guess what? None of that happens, right? We're not mad at Birdie. I love Birdie. She's amazing.

She's cute, she's lovable, she's so much fun. She's hilarious, right? If I say sit and she lays down, I'm not mad at her. I'm trying to rewire the brain. And a negative consequence is going to help me do that.

23:00 — Kati discusses choosing consequence intensity individually and says some frantic dogs benefit more from…

Now with dogs like this, do we need a real high consequence or do we need a middle-of-the-road consequence more times? Just depends. Every dog's different. So you gotta try different things. Who knows? But sometimes the spazzier the dog, the more they benefit from just the reps. The reps, the reps, right? I'm not saying leave the accountability and the negative consequences out. I'm just saying if you have a dog that's more able to slow down and think and process, one higher consequence might just get the job done. You get a dog that's a little more frantic and finds it nearly impossible to focus and think, they might also benefit from a really high consequence.

That might be the thing they need to slow 'em down and help 'em think. That happens. But maybe not, right? They might need something lower, middle of the road, and just repeat, repeat, repeat with guidance. So sometimes we find with the more frantic dogs that the more repetition and guidance is needed and that gets better results. And, and so I know it's a lot, like no one can tell you what to do with your dog. My advice is to just not be afraid of it and to try some different things. And also keep in mind, when you're correcting a dog, they might get panicky afterwards, which makes it even harder for them to think.

So don't expect that right after a correction, things are gonna look great. They might not. Do a couple more reps with some guidance and put 'em away and let 'em rest for a little bit, then bring them back out, see if it looks different. But at any rate, it's the negative consequence, guys, that is the catalyst for the brain to change. This extinction stuff is, it's garbage. And while we're at it, let's just add that trying to use extinction can actually work against you and serve to strengthen the behavior. So the experts will tell you that the lack of reinforcement will result in the behavior going away.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Look at how they train protection dogs. They put 'em on a harness, they hold them back, right? So what is the dog trying to do? Trying to get at the decoy, trying to bite. So you're telling me if the dog is not able to land the bite, which is what they want, that this behavior they're doing will go away. The trying to bite will go away. Hmm? It seems like people are using extinction or the process that should, that would be considered extinction. You're using it in their lives every day, all the time, right? Because if your dog has bad behaviors, nobody's intentionally rewarding those behaviors.

People are preventing counter surfing. They're keeping stuff off the counters. They're turning around and being a tree when their dog jumps on them, right? If their dog is a biter, they're not letting it bite people. Why doesn't the attempt to bite go away? Because it's stupid. Because that's just not how it works. Take a greyhound, let it chase a rabbit. So you're telling me if he doesn't catch the rabbit, he'll stop chasing rabbits. Like if he never catches them, that behavior will go away, right? Because that's what they're saying.

27:00 — Kati argues blocking a dog’s goal can strengthen behavior by building drive and frustration.

Can you see how flawed that thinking is, guys? That's never gonna happen in a million years. In fact, it could strengthen the behavior, 'cause a dog is building drive and frustration in that context. You know, when I made a post yesterday in regard to unwanted behaviors, bad behaviors, um, in that a lot of dogs are still carrying out those unwanted and bad behaviors simply because they can, right? And so what happens is people think they have these rules and boundaries in their house. And this is somewhat off topic, but there's some overlap. They think they have these rules and boundaries in their house.

But the truth is, I, I always say those rules, they only exist in your head, right? If your dog is still doing the behaviors, the rules aren't real. They're just in your head.

So people think that because their dog, this is, this is great, guys. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I've just found a way to articulate this a little bit better. People think that if their dog knows what they are supposed to do or if their dog knows what they are not supposed to do, that, that means there's a rule. No, it doesn't. That does not mean there's a rule. Just means your dog knows you don't like something. That doesn't make it a rule. Okay? You can tell your kids that there's a curfew, but if they just ignore it and nothing really happens, it's not a rule, it's a preference.

It's a request. It's not a rule.

It's not a real boundary, okay? And yes, your dog will absolutely do something that they know they're not supposed to do. Not because they're bad, because they're dogs, because that's how behavior works. I hate to tell you this, but your dog doesn't care if you're not happy. Your dog doesn't care if you're upset. Now, I'm not saying it doesn't bother your dog when you get visibly mad at them. Most dogs it does. Some dogs, it fires them up and they like the conflict or they talk back, they get sassy. Um, but a, a lot of dogs that are have softer personalities, they're gonna do that thing where they, they put their head down, they kinda look at the floor, they put their ears back, they kind of slink away, right?

And then people interpret that as guilt. It's not guilt, guys. Your dog doesn't feel guilty. Your dog's afraid of you. Your dog's afraid of that energy. Now, I would like to point out that if instead of doing that you just said no and put your e-collar up on an 80 and corrected them, your dog wouldn't be afraid of you.

Mind-boggling, huh? Because guys, a correction on the e-collar is not emotional. It's not personal. It's just uncomfortable. So you can see the difference. You can see the difference, right? It's a lot like <laugh>. It's a lot like if you step on a thumbtack, it hurts, right? Or even if someone, someone gives you a needle, a vaccine or whatever, someone gives you a needle, it hurts, right? But they can give you a needle neutrally and it's fine. What if they came at you, even if they didn't have a needle? What if they came at you all angry, right?

31:00 — Kati contrasts angry expressions and yelling with negative consequences she characterizes as impersonal.

Angry, angry facial expression, yelling, angry tone of voice. Which one is scarier and which one is more personal? A negative consequence is not personal.

And if folks would implement that properly, those bad behaviors would go away. But people are afraid of it. See? And it doesn't have to be that way, 'cause what happens is you leave the behaviors intact, you get more frustrated, which scares your dog. There's also a higher risk of your dog getting into trouble somehow. Whether they hurt someone else or they hurt themselves, they bolt out a door, they run into traffic, they get chicken bones outta the trash, whatever it is, right? Because we were too scared to just provide a negative consequence, an impersonal, unemotional consequence that just stops the behavior.

Again, this people wanna view this from like a, a punitive, it is punitive, right? It is punishment, but it's not personal. It's not that I'm mad at the dog. It's not that I'm showing the dog who's boss. That, that's not what's happening. There are dogs like that that need that. There are, they're out there, right? But generally speaking, this is just about changing the brain. And if you're going to rely on just withholding reinforcement, this supposed extinction, right? Or your dog just knowing that you don't like it, none of those things are gonna work.

Now, I will say, in addition to negative consequences, feel free to compound your results by adding positive reinforcement afterward. Not in the same repetition. For instance, your dog jumps on people, okay? Punish the jumping. So the brain decides not to jump. And now when your dog keeps all their paws on the floor, give them some food or affection or whatever, whatever it is. Contrast, right? It just didn't episode on contrast. But again, science right now we're reinforcing a different choice, right? But people wanna skip the punishment piece and it doesn't work. So tie a contingent negative consequence une emotionally to the behaviors.

you don't want, both bad behaviors and obedience behaviors that are incorrect. Assuming that your dog is trained and knows the difference. And then once you've accomplished that, reinforce the better behavior with a reward and see if you don't get a lot farther, a lot faster. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks for supporting the show, and I look forward to next time.