Group Class Isn’t The Answer: Why It Often Hurts More Than It Helps

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Diamond K9 Dog Training’s focus on e-collar training for off-leash obedience…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond K9 Dog Training here in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in e-collar training for off-leash obedience and behavior modification, meaning stopping unwanted behaviors. Uh, we do lots of state of mind work with dogs that have behavioral issues, so that's kind of what we specialize in. We also do puppy training, puppy board-and-trainings, um, and that sort of thing, puppy raising manners. Um, so that's who we are. That's what we do. Uh, and this podcast is just a way for us to reach more people and make more information readily available.

Um, information that is accurate and honest and transparent and super, super hard to find, um, on the internet. <laugh>, so don't, there's no lack of information. It's just a lot of it is wrong. Um, and you know, it's wrong because there's a lot of ignorance out there, uh, when it comes to this stuff, for sure, for sure.

Uh, but there's also a lot of ideology and agendas at play, and people, um, intentionally lie about this stuff and, and try to bury the truth. So, sounds stupid, but it's, it's real. That is the world we are living in, um, and I know how hard it is to find the truth. So that's what we do. We spread the truth and, um, yeah, that's it. We want people to be successful with their dogs. That's why we do what we do. So let's jump right in to talking about training. And we offer training in several different formats.

And one of the things I hear a lot from people is their concerns around, uh, the implications of using a specific format. So what I mean by that is, you know, private lessons or group classes or board-and-train. So I wanna kind of break that down a little bit.

Um, I assume probably most people, if they're listening to this, have done some training with their dog. Maybe not. Uh, but most people have. In fact, most people, when I meet them that are here for training, most of them have done some kind of training with their dog in the past. And it's also worth mentioning that most of them didn't get a lot of traction with that training, right? Because <laugh>, that's, that's why they're here. They probably wouldn't be here if they did. Um, so I think it's worth really talking about how you decide, like, if a format of training is going to work for you and if there's any real value in doing that, or what's better, um, what's more effective.

So let me break that down for you right now. The first thing that I wanna say is, uh, group classes. Now, we were just having a discussion about this and that's how I choose these topics, is like, these are things I'm always talking about day in and day out with our actual hands-on clients.

Um, and so if they need this information, I assume other people do too. And so that's the stuff we talk about. And so I was just having a conversation the other day with somebody, uh, who actually happens to be a family friend, uh, but also has problems with her dogs <laugh>. So, uh, she was asking about group classes, and I gotta tell you right now, we don't do any group classes and there is a reason for that, okay? So it's not that I don't think there's any value in a group class. I think there can be, but it really depends on the feedback we're giving the dog in the group class, right?

04:00 — A family friend attends group classes for distraction practice but is not getting the…

So she wants to get practice around distractions, which is why, and she's going to group classes elsewhere. Um, and I happen to know the place that she's going and I happen to know the kind of training that they're providing.

Um, and it's not gonna give her what she needs. And I think she knows that at this point. But any, anyway, uh, it's neither here nor there. It's kind of like, you know, group class can be, it, it's not that it can't be effective. It, it can, but it's usually not. It's usually more like a trip to a daycare or a dog park, right? So think of it this way, you know, I always tell people when they talk about, like, socializing their dogs and putting their dogs in groups. Um, and I talk about why I don't like the dog park socialization, right?

Or actual interaction between dogs. It's only really valuable if the dogs are getting feedback from their handler. And that's not to say that the dogs have any valuable exchanges between each other. Um, they can, but they can just as easily have, you know, exchanges between each other that are counterproductive. And I think that happens most of the time if nobody's watching and knows what they're watching for and stepping in, um, and intervening as needed. So if you put your dog, right, you can have the same exact situation, the same exact setting, be productive as counterproductive, right?

So I can bring my dog into the specific setting. Let's say we're at a park somewhere and there's other, other people there with their dogs. I can go into that setting and I can actually teach my dog valuable thing and come outta that better than we went in.

But somebody else, or, or even us, like we could go into that same situation and come out of it worse than we were, right? So it's not so much the setting and the environment as it is what is happening and how are we responding to it in that environment, in that setting. So that's what determines your growth, okay? That's what determines whether or not there's value, whether it's productive or counterproductive. So anyways, this family friend who's taking her dog to group classes and asking me why I don't provide group classes, 'cause she knows that my training is effective, um, she believes that she needs to have a group class to work around distractions, which makes sense.

I can understand that line of thinking, right? So she's like, well, I want to work around people and dogs in like a somewhat controlled environment, and I totally get that. And I, and I agree, I do not disagree with that. I think that's, that's a good thing. Um, but she's not getting any traction, and why is that? But it's because of the type of training that they're doing. They're not providing their dog with the necessary feedback. So they're just going into this group class, they're just going into this environment where there are other dogs and other people, and they're not providing meaningful feedback to their dog to shape their dog's behavior.

So what good is, what good is that? Okay, so they go in there, her dog gets overexcited, sometimes it lunges and barks at people when they come in, and there's no appropriate feedback. I'm sure she says no, I'm sure she pulls on the leash, right? I'm sure she restrains her dog, but that's not meaningful feedback. That's not going to get any traction. That's not going to stick, it's not gonna shape behavior. In fact, you may very well, in a situation like that where you're doing those things, be nurturing that behavior contrary to popular belief, right?

08:00 — Kati argues that repeatedly restraining a lunging, barking dog can increase frustration and strengthen…

So because we think if we're saying no, especially in a firm tone, and she's probably getting frustrated, I have to assume I would be, and I'm sure the dog picks up on that. People assume that that's like a negative consequence, but it, it isn't. In fact, is all this time that the dog is rehearsing, lunging, pulling on the leash, trying to get to the trigger, all that's really happening is frustration is mounting.

And they are wearing that pathway in the brain where they lunge, where they move forward, where they bark, where they get frustrated. So we're actually rehearsing the reactive behavior over and over and over again. And we're strengthening it, strengthening it, and strengthening it. In fact, that's how they train protection dogs, right? If you watch any like protection training, sport training, which is a lot of fun, the dog is often on a harness and they are pulling, lunging, barking toward the decoy, right? And so we're really reinforcing that behavior, we're nurturing that behavior, we're strengthening and cementing that behavior, move toward, move toward, move toward, increased frustration, increased desire, right?

And so she's in group class literally doing this with her dog. How is that helpful? Sure, you've got the distractions there, which is good, I agree. But if you're not, if you don't, if you're not equipped with the tools and the skills to inhibit that behavior and build something different, then you are totally working against yourself. Totally working against yourself. Now, I mean, this is a class where, um, they really only use rewards. And so that's why they're not equipped to respond in a way that would actually change their dog's behavior and get them traction, in which case then they could actually rehearse what they want around distractions, right?

So if I held a group class, what it would look like is people would come in, we would equip them with tools,

11:00 — Kati describes using prong collars and e-collars to interrupt unwanted behavior, then rewarding requested…

Definitely a prong collar and perhaps an e-collar. And we would teach them how to use those tools to both inhibit behaviors, right? How to get their dog's attention, get their dog to prioritize them, how to punish things like lunging at people. And guess what? Now you've got some traction, right? So that's not all you're gonna do. You're gonna do that. But then once you do it, now you can actually work your dog. Now you can ask your dog for stuff and reward them when they do it, right? So it's not that you have to cut that part of it out,

But working around distractions just isn't valuable if you don't have the tools and the skills to tell your dog what to do, what not to do, and actually get them to do it and get them to choose to do it, right? Not like physically move them around with the leash and try to bribe them and distract them with the treat. Get them to choose to prioritize you over the distraction. That's training. If your training doesn't do that, then it's not good training, okay? So that's the type of group class I would offer. And I've tried to do that, um, <laugh>, but it, it has, you know, it's not the best setting, I don't think.

I prefer to be able to give people more attention in like a one-on-one setting. Um, and we'll talk more about that. Um, but I think there's some value in the group setting just because it keeps the price low.

Um, but I have found that it, it doesn't keep the price low enough. People that wanna do group classes generally want it to be very inexpensive. And if you're using tools, that's going to add to the price, that's gonna raise the price tag a little bit. And so I have found that there isn't a ton of interest when we offer a group class because I'm not gonna do a group class without tools. Um, where nobody can talk to their dog and nobody can correct things and nobody can get their dog's attention. To me, that is just stupid.

It's just a moneymaking scheme. There's no value in it. Um, and that's not gratifying. So I'm here to actually help people be successful. <laugh> Just having people come in here for an hour and wrestle with their dogs and go home with no traction on anything, um, is just not something I'm interested in doing.

Uh, so we don't do that. We don't offer group classes right now, which brings me to my next point, which is people like her, um, believe that you need to have that group class setting to have those distractions. But our customers do just fine, totally fine. Whether it's private sessions, um, or board-and-train. You know, if they follow the directions and they put in the work, they have no issue around distractions at all. So don't trick yourself into thinking that you have to have that kind of a setting. You do not. You do not.

14:00 — Private sessions introduce distractions through toys, food, other dogs, and people without requiring a…

You need to have training that will provide you with the tools and the information and the knowledge and the skillset to go out into the world and work around distraction and be productive, to be able to communicate with your dog and provide feedback to your dog in a way that produces real results around distractions.

You know? And it's not like we don't have any distractions in a one-on-one program. We do. We have all kinds of stuff that, you know, we use toys, we use food to distract the dog. We use other dogs, um, other people. Um, you know, there's lots of ways that you can provide a distraction to your dog without having to be in a group class. Now, I'm not saying group class isn't more of a distraction, like a bigger distraction, I think it is. But you also don't necessarily wanna start there, right? Start by just running around in circles around your dog, right?

That's a distraction. Most dogs are gonna fly up out of their command and chase you <laugh>, right? That's a distraction. Like if your dog can't do that, forget working in a group class, right? So you come to the one-on-one private sessions and we show you how to distract your dog by yourself, right?

With just your energy, your tone, your voice, your body language, you know, toys, fill the food bowl, knock on the door, uh, ride your bike around, you know, vacuum. Do things that make the dog kind of uncomfortable. Um, and then, you know, have a friend come over, have a friend come through the door, take your dog out to Home Depot, go to Tractor Supply, go to the park, right? And, and take all these skills we showed you in your one-on-one class and all these tools and how to use them and take that with you out into the world, to the park, to Home Depot, whatever.

And just do the same thing there. Piece of cake. <laugh> A piece of cake. I'm not saying your dog will be a piece of cake, um, but I'm saying don't put too much emphasis on the format. The most important thing is that you walk away with the tools and the skills, right? And then you can bring your dog to train in any format, in any environment, and you can be effective.

That's what we do. We teach people how to be effective, right? So the one-on-one sessions work just fine if you're willing to practice it. Now, I do have people that come in and, and we show them, you know, obviously we've provided them with the tools. We do that on day one. We show them how to use them, um, how to condition the dog to the e-collar and, and how to work around distractions and how to handle mistakes when the dog makes mistakes. You know, as we move through the program, they're learning how do I use e-collar to hold my dog accountable and how do I, you know, get the things that I'm asking for, and we show them how to do that.

17:00 — Kati warns that practicing only in the living room leaves owners unprepared for outings…

Um, but then they go home and they only do it in their living room. Well, yeah, like that's, that's a problem. Like your dog will only listen in the living room then, right?

But the truth is, even if you come to group class, like let's say we had a group class where we did that same thing. If you go home and only practice in your living room, your dog will only listen, only listen in your living room and at class, right? It doesn't do you any good. When you go down to the local brewery and you wanna sit down and have a pizza and a beer and you wanna bring your dog, they're not gonna listen 'cause you haven't done it there. So it's gonna be messy, it's gonna be hard, most likely, right?

And so even a group class can't actually do that for you, right? Even if your dog learns to listen in group class, they will only listen in group class if you don't go out other places and practice.

So for that reason, even if you do a class where you feel like the environment is more challenging what you want, that's okay, but it still won't be enough. You have to take your dog out and practice. It doesn't have to be a ton, right? So I have people that come in, this is what I started to say earlier. They come in, they're doing the training and they're, you know, the dog is learning everything just fine. Um, but you know, we're training recall and they've only done it in their living room. <laugh> There's nothing I can do for you here that's gonna make your dog come back at the park, right?

Or on your a hundred acres has no fence.

I can't do that for you here in private sessions or in a group class, right? If you want your dog to come back to you in the a hundred acre forest where there's rabbits and deer, then that's where you need to go practice. And don't think a session has to be like an hour-long session either. It doesn't. Like it is when you're here for, for, uh, private sessions and they're about an hour long. It's like, you know, in the wintertime it's cold out. We don't go outside and practice that long. Most of the time we'll do some reps inside and then we go out and we do some reps outside.

If it's really cold, we might only be outside for five minutes. It might just be five reps, right?

A lot of times it's 10 minutes, 15 minutes. If it's nice out, maybe we're out there for two hours. But it doesn't have to be. But you gotta do it. You gotta do it. And uh, you can do it no matter what format of training you have. So I find the training's job, again, is to make you effective. And then your job is to take those skills and go out and do them in different environment. So, so there I find group class to be wildly ineffective. 'Cause number one, people don't wanna pay the price point for a class that has tools.

20:00 — Limited individual instruction can leave group-class participants stuck when their dogs struggle.

Um, and number two, you don't get any time with the instructor. So it's all group instruction. And if you're kind of lost or your dog is struggling for some reason 'cause they're all a little different too, um, then you just kind of stay stuck and lost, right? So you might not get the amount of help that you really need. So, so it's not my favorite. It's not my favorite. And so then of course your last option is a board-and-train option. And uh, I did a consultation yesterday and, and the lady's concern was, well, you know, he is gonna spend two weeks or three weeks, you know, doing all this training with you every day.

And then my concern is that he is gonna come home and not, he's not gonna do any of this stuff for us.

Um, and I'm glad she's thinking that way 'cause that absolutely can happen. But in a good training program, it won't happen. So you don't have to worry about that either if you know you're buying a good training program from a reputable trainer. So the problem comes in with the board-and-train where the trainer trains the dog and the dog knows everything, but they don't do a good job training the human. So that's a huge piece of our job when a dog goes home, is to make sure the humans are fully educated. And it's a lot.

e-collar training can be a lot. It's a lot to take in. It's a lot to learn. It's a little overwhelming sometimes at first. Um, and that's okay. People go home, they practice, they get comfortable, they reach out if they have questions and it, everything falls into place most of the time. Okay? But if I just sent the dog home, then yeah, it would fall apart. It absolutely would fall apart.

So the trainer's job in a board-and-train is to teach the dog all kinds of new skills, teach reliability and consistency, teach accountability, right? And then when the dog goes home, show the owner how to use the tools to get the same reliability. Show them how to really provide accountability and be totally honest about it because if they're not, then they won't be able to go home and get the same behavior the trainer got. And that is no good, guys, no good. So not all e-collars are the, are the same. Not all e-collar trainers or training programs are the same for that reason.

So I've said before, I've had lots of dogs come through here that have already had e-collar training. Um, and yet here they are for more training and it really isn't even the dog that needs the training. It's the person, it's the person. So, and I'll tell them that on the phone. I say, chances are your dog already knows all of these things. Like you just haven't held them accountable. And sometimes they tell me like nobody showed them how.

So you wanna make sure that you are going to get sufficient training. And you know, the thing you have to worry about then is that the information they're giving you is even accurate. So you know, anybody telling you that you should never correct your dog above a certain level, um, those sorts of statements are kind of red flag statements because there's just no way for them to know that. There's just no way for them to know that. And most of the time then people go home and they just nag their dogs. And, and that's not what people want.

They just want their dog to listen so they can take 'em places and do things with 'em and enjoy life with them so they can keep them safe and keep other people safe. Um, and you gotta be, you know, your trainer needs to be honest with you in order for you to go home and do that.

Uh, so look for someone who's not afraid to share that information openly, okay? Um, but that's it. I mean, the format of training really isn't the focus, guys. I mean, different formats work better for different people. Obviously, the price point is usually immensely different among those formats, right? Group class is gonna be usually way cheaper. Private sessions are gonna be middle of the road, and then board-and-train's gonna be a little more expensive in most cases. I think board-and-train is far and away the best option. And some trainers disagree and think private sessions is the best option.

25:00 — Kati explains that e-collar training changes across learning phases, which can overwhelm owners managing…

Um, and I don't think that there's really a right or wrong way to do it. I think it's, it's different for everybody, you know. But the reason that I often recommend board-and-train, so, and this is good, you wanna listen to this.

Like if you're considering doing a training program with your dog somewhere and you're not sure what you'd prefer to do, when you do e-collar training with a dog, you're moving through different phases. And so you're doing something different with the e-collar training depending on where the dog is at their level of understanding with the commands, with the e-collar, with everything. And so you are gonna be doing one thing one day, something a little different the next, something a little different the next. And that can kind of be a lot for some people, especially if you already have a lot on your plate or for people that are a little bit older or they're having like problems with their memory.

Like they don't wanna have to like relearn <laugh> what to do at every phase of training. It can be a little confusing and it's just a lot to remember.

Uh, so if you do a board-and-train, the trainer's gonna do all that for you. And then there's just gonna be like, you just need to hold the dog accountable when they go home and they're gonna show you how to do that, right? Now, if you do private sessions, then you basically need to learn every phase, right? You need to come in and do phase one, go home and and practice it. Come in, do phase two, go home and practice it. Which is okay. It's okay, but it's building blocks. And so you gotta be willing to learn and adapt every week that you come in for a lesson.

And depending on which commands you do when, your dog might be at different stages, right? So they might know place really well, but they haven't learned heel at all. So you're doing two different things with those commands.

So it's a little more involved, it's a little more, um, labor-intensive. 'Cause you have to go home and, and you have to do the reps. And like I said, you gotta do 'em inside, you gotta do 'em outside. Um, and you gotta be willing to learn to use your tools a little bit differently every time you come to class. So it's more work. It's just more work is what it boils down to. When you do a board-and-train, all those reps are done for you. The dog's trained inside, they're trained outside. Hopefully they're taken on field trips like we do.

Um, hopefully they work with different handlers like we try to do too. And uh, and then the final step is just passing that over to the owner at the go-home.

Um, and you don't have to worry about actually teaching the dog. They already know everything. Then you just have to focus on you learning everything a little bit easy. Um, and I think the results tend to be a little more polished or a lot more polished in some cases <laugh>. But you can absolutely do it through private sessions too. Um, group class, you know, I I have no doubt that it's possible to do it in a group class, but it's just not something that we've done at this point. Um, something I'd like to do down the road, you know, if we could get, if we could get a full group, um, sign up for a class with tools, I think that would be, would be interesting.

So because, you know, I know not everybody has it in the pocketbook either to do a board-and-train, especially if they need it right now. Um, it's a more expensive option. It is. But that's it, guys. So don't put too much emphasis on the format of your training. Uh, put more emphasis on how do I get the skills, what tools do I need, and how do I get the skills to be effective working with my dog around distractions. That's it. That's all you need. Okay, guys, thanks for joining me today and I look forward to the next one.