Don’t Overthink Dog Training—The Principles Stay The Same For All Dogs

00:00 — Kati Peppe opens Off Leash and Unfiltered and asks listeners to subscribe.

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everybody, thanks for joining me for another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. Hope you're having an amazing day, or at least a better day than I'm having <laugh>. So, uh, still plenty of time for this day to turn around.

It's early, but, uh, on, you know, and today is one of those days where I said, all right, I'm gonna get back in the saddle with the getting up early and, and coming in and, and getting like the recording done and, you know, catching up on like all these things I wanna do that I never have time to do.

And so I, I got up and I got going a lot earlier than I <laugh> normally do. And on our way into the training center, Rudder shit in the backseat. Probably my fault, I probably didn't give him enough time, uh, to go. Um, I did give him a couple minutes and he just wasn't, he like, he peed and, and he wasn't doing anything else. So I was like, all right, well I, and I always give them another chance when we get to the training center anyway, um, as we're walking into the building. So I don't worry too much about it if, if they don't go. Well, he went in the car <laugh>.

And the worst part about it is I have seat protectors, thank God, right? Normally I have a hammock in there, but you guys, I haven't cleaned the Jeep out properly since my last vacation, which was nearly two months ago, which is pretty wild to think.

Um, well, vacation where we actually went away. And so the hammock's not in there right now. And I actually planned on cleaning it out today. It was part of the reason I got up early and came in to do stuff. And then I thought, when Joyce gets here, she can start working with the dogs and I'm gonna go clean my car out. Um, 'cause it's been needing to be done. I've been wanting to get that hammock back in there. And so it's kind of funny that, that was on my agenda today anyway, but I didn't plan on scraping dog shit out of my seatbelt buckle for half an hour.

Um, and that's kind of where we're at right now. So, but of course the seat protectors, right? They're not one solid piece, right? There's like a piece for the back of the seat and there's a piece for the seat itself.

03:00 — Kati describes cleaning dog feces from her Jeep’s seat crease and seatbelt buckle.

And so where the crease is, where the seat folds up and down, it's, there's, you know, there's a crack there. There's nothing in there to keep crap, like literal crap, from getting down in there. Um, luckily that part wasn't too bad, but the seatbelt buckle is a real problem. And <laugh>, I think, even though I've cleaned it all out really well, I think I'm gonna have to probably take it apart as soon as I get a chance and make sure there's nothing in there. It's like the worst thing ever. <laugh>. So, so I'm literally having a shitty morning.

Um, but it's better now that I've got it cleaned up <laugh>. And um, yeah. And the coffee situation today, it took 22 minutes to get my coffee. What is with fast food? Can we just bitch about this for a second? Okay. Because like I'll take my daughter to the McDonald's in Windham.

Um, not often, but every once in a while, um, you know, she'll get outta school when I pick her up, I pick her up, uh, one day a week from school and you know, if she's starving, sometimes we might stop at the McDonald's, but I won't do it anymore because I literally have to wait over 30 minutes sometimes. Guys, it's fast food. Like what the fuck is going on in the fast food industry? That McDonald's in particular, though, is like the worst McDonald's. By the way, the one here in Biddeford next to the training center is amazing, amazing.

I'm not there often 'cause I try not to eat that stuff, but every once in a while I do. Every once in a while I have to have fries and a shake. <laugh>, it happens. Um, and yeah, they're really good, but holy crap. And it's consistent. It's not like a one-time thing. It's all the time. And so today at Dunkin' Donuts out my way, it's the Dunkin' Donuts in Hollis. I sat at the drive-through 22 minutes and then they tried to give me a coffee that wasn't made correctly. Fortunately, I can tell just by looking at it, um, 'cause I have practice 'cause it happens all the time, <laugh>, but 22 minutes, like, right?

And then I had to go scrape the dog shit out of the seatbelt buckle. So I, I got up early pretty much for nothing. <laugh> is what it feels like. But so now here I am, we're gonna try to get back on track.

We're gonna record this episode and then probably by the time I'm done with that, Joyce will be showing up and we'll be working dogs and we're gonna take Rumi and probably Tiki and Bug. We'll probably take all three of them to the pet store today. So that'll be a good time. Um, we'll definitely get some pictures and video of that and get that posted so everyone can see how they're doing so their owners can see how they're doing. Um, and they're all doing really, really well actually. So I did take Bug and Tiki for an off-leash adventure at my new property yesterday, and they both did really well.

06:00 — Tiki’s main training challenge is holding a down when Kati walks away.

Um, Tiki's biggest opportunity was just holding his down when I walked away, but that's pretty normal for where he is at at the point in, in his program. So they did a good job. Um, but with all those details of my morning out of the way, let's move on and let's talk about dog training stuff.

So what type of training do you need for your dog? What should you be doing with your dogs specifically? Now, of course there are probably different things we should be doing with different dogs, right? Every dog literally is different. Every dog has different needs, every dog has different behavioral issues, um, different nervous system stuff going on. Um, and that is true. However, I feel like the type of training generally describes like, should we be using negative consequences? Should we be using positive consequences? Should we be using a clicker? Should we be using food? Should we be using play?

Should we be using praise? Should we be using punishment? Should we ever use aversives? You know, should we use a prong collar or should we not? Should we use a slip lead? And I don't actually feel like those, I'm using the incorrect speech here. It's not that I don't feel like it <laugh>, I don't think those things change based on the dog 99% of the time.

99.9% of the time. Okay? So 99.9 dogs out of 100. I don't believe there's any reason to, to change the tools we're using. So, and we use all of those things and I guess that that's kind of the point, right? We use all of those things no matter who your dog is, whether your dog is nervous, fearful, anxious, or just normal or excitable, easily stimulated, pushy, aggressive, reactive, none of those things dictate what tool we use. None of those things dictate what kind of marker we use. None of those things dictate: do we use a crate?

09:00 — Kati says results, rather than a dog’s characteristics, dictate her choice of training tools.

Do we use an e-collar, do we use a prong collar?

Okay? So why, why don't those things dictate that? Because that would be backwards. So what dictates that stuff is results. We do what gets results, period. And so if you take into account anything else, then you just might not get the best results, right? So if you say, well, my dog is nervous, so I can't use an e-collar, okay, your results will likely suffer because the chances that you are going to be able to develop the off-leash influence without an e-collar is very low. The chances that you're going to be able to deliver your dog feedback physically in a timely fashion without an e-collar is very low, impossible.

If they're off leash almost, I'm not gonna say impossible, but almost, almost impossible. Like it takes a real skill set and a lot of effort, I wouldn't wanna do it. And I know how <laugh>. The chances that you're going to be able to influence that dog and convince them not to fixate on something they're scared of without e-collar is low, it's going to be much harder. So what you've done by saying, I'm going to allow my dog's personality, I'm gonna allow my dog's issues, I'm gonna allow that to dictate what we use. I'm gonna allow that to dictate the quote-unquote type of training we do or the tools we use.

12:00 — Kati describes a uniform training framework built around highly structured days, especially early in…

Um, and that's ass-backwards. We don't do that. Here's the thing that I think is difficult for people to understand. Sometimes our training programs, while we operate out of a very uniform framework, right? We, we promulgate the use of structure. Highly structured days, at least in the beginning when you're trying to train your dog and you're trying to cultivate change. Highly structured. We, we talk about the use of certain tools, right? We use certain tools for a reason because they allow us to deliver physical feedback and to completely 100% control the timing and intensity of the physical feedback.

And guys, when you're communicating with the dog, it doesn't get any better than that, okay?

The use of a mix of consequences that are tangible and contingent. Now what does that mean? It means the consequences aren't just in my head and they're not just noises. I don't just say things, okay? For instance, a lot of people think you can tie the beep to a, a correction and then you can just beep instead of correcting the dog. No, you can't. And I'm not saying you won't see any results if you do that. I'm just saying it's not generally effective in the long term. It's not generally going to achieve what we want to achieve, which is to eliminate whatever the behavior is we're correcting.

Um, 'cause a noise is just that. It's just a noise, right? And you can link it to something, you can associate it with something, but ultimately if the thing it's associated with goes away, then it becomes no longer associated with that thing. Okay? So if I make a fire, I get smoke and that happens every time. What if it didn't? Right? If I made a fire and I got smoke twice, but then I made a fire and there was no smoke, and then that happened again and again and again. Well, at some point I stop expecting smoke, right?

15:00 — Kati argues that a correction beep loses meaning when the associated consequence no longer…

So the reason it's frankly stupid <laugh> to think that you can beep for a correction, to think that you can correct your dog with just a noise that you've associated with something, is because you're basically calling your dog stupid. You're saying, well, he's too dumb to figure out that the consequence isn't gonna come, right? Once, once it's come a couple of times, he's too stupid to figure out. No, he is not <laugh>. Trust me, he'll figure it out. So just like your dog can learn an association, just like your dog can learn to associate the beep with a correction, they don't stop learning once they make an association, guys. Associations aren't permanent.

Oh, that's so important, right? So we'll dig into that in a second. Just like your dog makes that association, they can unmake it, they can make a new one.

So you can associate a beep with a correction today, and then tomorrow you can associate it with a reward. Your dog isn't retarded, guys. Your dog will learn whatever you teach them. And for some reason, people are really, really, really adamant about teaching their dog that corrections won't come. You gotta get outta that frame of mind. The correction has to come. There is no easy button, there is no shortcut, there is no magic or fairy dust. And your dog is smart. They are the master at establishing what is the pattern. And if the pattern is there's a noise and then nothing happens, they will know that. If they don't know it today, it'll be tomorrow or next week.

But I trust you, I promise you, trust me, they will figure it out.

Your dog will always figure out what the reality is. Dogs live in reality, unlike humans, <laugh>. So getting back on track, but that association piece, uh, before we circle back to what we're actually supposed to be talking about, that association piece is so critical, um, because you can think of so many scenarios, um, where people just think it's the end of the world, right? So they, the whole reason people don't correct their dogs is because they don't want them to make accidental associations, right? If I correct my dog, won't he have a bad association with me?

18:00 — Kati argues that behavior-linked corrections inside a crate do not automatically create a negative…

Well, no, not unless that's all you ever do, right? Especially if it's random and not tied to his behavior. If I correct my dog in the crate, won't they have a bad association with the crate? No, because it's not the crate that's causing the correction, it's the behavior, right? Your dog spends tons of time in the crate not being corrected.

So we are intent on taking this one little piece of reality, which is a correction, and saying, oh, now my dog will forever associate everything with corrections. That's foolish because most of the time your dog's not being corrected. Do you think that information doesn't get in? So if I have a dog that's barking in the kennel and I correct them and they shut up, which was my goal, now the dog lays in the kennel for an hour or two or whatever, and they're not being corrected that entire time. Why is it that humans go, oh, the only thing the dog can learn there is that the crate is bad?

And he gets corrected in there when the correction was a two-second correction, and then he had two hours of laying in there peacefully with no correction. Why is it that we go, oh, now he thinks he'll think the crate is bad? Really?

So in your brain, you think that dog takes in that two-second correction, associates it with the kennel, not his behavior, and then the next 120 minutes, he's not learning anything, he's not taking anything in, not making any associations. The quiet, the peace, the calm, the napping, while he's in the kennel, that all just gets blocked out. Really? That's silly. Your dog makes associations all the time. So if you wanna be maximally effective, this is a good segue. You need to use a variety, right? And sometimes it's not even, you're using a variety. There just naturally is a variety like I just described.

You provide a correction and then your dog gets to experience just being, just being calm.

Or even if they're not calm, even if they're in there and they're anxious and they don't like it in there, nothing bad is happening. They're not being corrected. Your dog is learning that, right? But to be maximally effective, and this is true for all dogs, you want a variety of consequences ranging from very positive through neutral to very negative. And here's the thing, dependent on your dog's behavior, that's what dictates how much of what are we using depending on what motivates your dog, what is effective with your dog, what achieves our goals with your dog?

And that's what we do. That's what we use, that's what we provide. And that's why when someone says, hey, is your training, would that be a, a good fit for my dog? Yes, it's always a good fit for your dog. Like there are no exceptions. It's a good fit for every dog. When I do a consultation with somebody, I'm not trying to find out if this training is a good fit for their dog. I'm trying to find out if it is a good fit for the human or if they're going to get all hung up on, well, I can't put an e-collar on my nervous dog.

22:00 — Kati identifies owners’ reluctance to use crates or e-collars as warning signs about program…

Well, I feel really bad and I feel really guilty and I don't really wanna use a crate and I don't believe dogs should be in crates and I don't really wanna use an e-collar. When can we take it off? Like those sorts of things. Those are the red flags that I go, hmm, it's not right for you. Right? It's not your dog.

I don't need to meet your dog. I don't need to see your dog. I need to know about you. <laugh> Is this a good fit for you? Because guys, no matter where your dog is, you have to meet them where they are in every situation. You have to meet your dog where they are. If they have an unwanted behavior, you have to correct that behavior, okay? And it doesn't matter if your dog is nervous, fearful, anxious, pushy, bossy, snotty, aggressive, reactive, uncertain, it doesn't matter. That rule is true for every dog. What changes is what is a correction to my dog?

Okay? For some dogs it might just be a loud noise. We don't generally use that because I don't believe that it's effective long term. 'Cause essentially it's a lot like confidence building, right? If your dog is afraid of something, you just build up their tolerance and their exposure and they see nothing, nothing bad happens. There's no physical, tangible thing that happens. It's just a noise, right? And then your dog gets used to it. So we don't use those. But just as an example with a softer dog, like a loud noise might, at least in the short term, be a punishment.

You know? Or some people use spray bottles. We don't usually use those either. Like just water, um, right? A firm tone of voice, a poke with the fingers, right? That might be a punishment in some situations for some dogs. A dog that jumps on you and you just bump 'em off with your knee, some dogs never jump again. You know, other dogs, it might be a low correction on the e-collar. I, I have had dogs that will jump out of their skin at a 10, a 15 on the e-collar. It's unusual what happens sometimes. Everybody wants to think they have that dog.

Most people don't.

It's not common, but they're out there, right? Some dogs are soft, some dogs are sensitive, some dogs are easily freaked out. And then we have other dogs. If that e-collar's not on a hundred, I know they're gonna do it again, right? Because they're confident, they're brazen, they're pushy, they're not physically sensitive, they're not mentally sensitive. So yes, what is meaningful and motivating to your dog is unique to your dog. Every dog is very, very individual as far as that goes. But with the tools we use, we're able to adjust to any dog. We can be as gentle or as firm as needed with the tools we use.

And that's why it is good for any dog. Any dog, right? And the rules don't change just because of the dog and their personality and their behavior. It, it doesn't, the rules don't change.

26:00 — Kati says she would correct a nervous dog’s growling despite its underlying nervousness.

Not really. And we can approach things different ways depending on the dog, right? But doesn't change the fact if I have a nervous dog that growls at somebody, I'm going to correct that growl. I don't care that the dog is nervous because the first step to making the dog not so nervous is telling them they don't need to growl. And people wanna think the way that you do that is to go meet people and have them give the dog treat, treat. And it's not. A, because the dog probably won't take the treat because they're nervous.

B, because most of the time that's pretty threatening, right? The person's directly coming up to the dog, usually head-on, they're making eye contact, they're extending their hand. Those are all bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. And the dog is feeling more and more and more and more threatened. <laugh> The way we begin to tell a dog not to be so nervous is to tell them to stop doing their old stuff. And so that conversation needs to be had. We don't just not correct a dog because they're nervous, guys. And unfortunately, when I do a consultation with somebody who has a nervous, fearful dog, they usually don't wanna hear that.

And they usually don't sign up.

Not everybody is our client, <laugh>. You probably know that. And I'm not here to convince anybody. I'm here to tell them what I know, what we've done, what we do, and you want it or you don't. And that's okay. Everybody's on their own journey. But is this training right for your dog? Yeah. Are these tools right for your dog? Yep. Yes, they are. And so the good news is you don't have to rack your brain trying to figure out how you should be approaching things with your dog. Now, are there variations in how we're interacting with dogs, how we're living with dogs based on—yeah, absolutely.

But even then it's like take the structure that we recommend. For instance, if you have a really, really pushy, snotty dog who's aggressive toward other dogs, toward other people, or God forbid toward their own family, um, yeah, it's gonna be really, really important for you to use the structure, right? Your dog should not have freedom. Your dog should not be on your furniture right now, uh, maybe down the road, but right now, hell no. Right? Because your dog thinks the world revolves around them. Uh, so no. But if you have a really nervous dog, a fearful dog, a dog with separation anxiety, guess what?

It's just as important. It's just as important. So we don't get softer just because your dog is softer. What you have to understand is that giving your dog a clear path to walk, giving them structure, giving them tangible consequences, giving them real boundaries, a clear path to walk throughout their day, no matter where they are or what you're doing, brings dogs to the center. So

30:00 — Kati uses a circle metaphor to explain how clear boundaries can move different temperaments…

No matter where your dog is, right, picture behavior as being a circle, and your dog might be nervous or confident, friendly or reactive, aggressive. And no matter where they land in this circle, by providing a clear path to walk, it pulls everyone into the middle. Not everyone's gonna end up right in the center, right? Genetics matter <laugh>, not all dogs are as pliable. Not all dogs are as malleable, but it pulls them toward the center, right? And right in the center, the bullseye would ideally be very confident, very respectful, very well-behaved,

Not afraid, not nervous, not anxious, not aggressive, not reactive, right? Confident, level-headed, curious, like that would be the middle. And if you provide your dog with structure, rules, boundaries, and consistency, and you're willing to do—here's the key—you're willing to do all of those things in whatever way they need to be done to motivate your specific dog. If you do that, you will move your dog as close to the center of that circle as they can get. That's the key, right? But if you're using things that don't motivate your dog, both positive and negative consequences, then that will hamper your results.

And I'll tell you what, if you're only using positive stuff to motivate your dog, that's gonna seriously hamper your results. And I don't care who your dog is, this is true. So people wanna say like, some dogs only need positive reinforcement, or even, most dogs only need positive reinforcement. And it's not true. It is a lie. It is just complete bullcrap. And I will correct you if that comes outta your mouth, <laugh>, because it comes out of people's mouth all the time. And I know I've said this probably a hundred times, like if, if you've listened to my stuff, you've heard this for sure.

I hate it when people act as though they had to come to see me because something's wrong with their dog. They had to come to see me because positive reinforcement just wasn't enough for their dog. And like even the other day, I, I was with somebody who has an aggressive dog, and there was some something they said alluding to like if it, the dog had maybe been a golden retriever or something.

No, nope. I think they probably had used somebody, uh, prior to me who was only using positive reinforcement. I could be mixing up my customers. But, but someone made that comment. Um, and right away, nope, it wouldn't matter if your dog was a golden retriever. The breed does not matter. The personality does not matter. The temperament does not matter. Positive reinforcement alone will not get you there. It just will not. And you will—I will die on this hill—you will never convince me of otherwise. And I'll tell you what, if I'm wrong, you come show me how it's done.

34:00 — Kati challenges reinforcement-only approaches using resource guarding, cat chasing, and severe dog aggression as…

Come show me, okay? You come stop resource guarding. You come stop a dog from chasing the cat with positive reinforcement. You come show me how to stop a dog that wants to kill another dog with positive reinforcement. By the way, we have a dog like that right now in private lessons. And yesterday was their—was it yesterday? Yesterday, the day before was their second lesson. And the dog was sitting near another dog, a live dog, not a stuffed dog like some trainers use. And you know what she was doing? Nothing, nothing. She was looking the other way, sitting calmly, just a few feet from the other dog.

We didn't do that with cookies. Now I've had a lot of nervous dogs come through here too. And frankly, nervous, fearful dogs are some of my favorite dogs, guys. And they are the hardest. It is the most challenging thing. A biting dog, usually much easier than a dog that wants to run away. Some dogs are super flighty and their nervous system is just in overdrive. Like it's just a totally disproportionate response to what's happening. And they're flighty and they're hard. And I'll tell you what, never in a million years are you gonna get there with a cookie.

You might not be able to get there at all with some of these dogs.

But I'll give you an example. I think I've mentioned this one before, but it's been a while. We had a really nervous dog, um, who was scared of everything. She was scared of her shadow. Um, and so when we would work in the training center, and this was, this was a few years ago, so I was here, but I was in a different room, when we would work, she would want to just go hide in her kennel, right? She didn't wanna come out and do the work, she didn't like doing the work. She didn't wanna be around anybody.

She didn't wanna see anything. She didn't wanna hear it, right? Because she's nervous for no reason. She just is, right? It's who she is.

She talk about that too. <laugh> Um, she, she'd wanna go into her kennel. So when we were doing heeling exercises, the kennel made a great distraction because if we walked by the kennel, all she wanted to do was run into that kennel and just curl up in a ball and like hide and hope no one could see her. And so I taught her a heel. I taught her the e-collar in the context of heel, meaning if you veer away from my left leg, the stimulation turns on and the way you shut it off is to come back to my left leg, right?

38:00 — Kati describes teaching heel through repetition and guidance before using it to address the…

So that's how we teach a heel. It's pretty simple, but it takes a lot of repetition for the dogs to really catch on and some guidance, right? And we did that and we did it plenty.

And she learned it. And then it comes time to use it in a way that helps her overcome fear. Well, guess what? If she's gonna overcome fear of strangers, fear of bikes, fear of loud noises, fear of cars, whatever, it's the cold, hard truth is she's going to have to be more afraid of breaking command than those things. Now, how am I gonna accomplish that with a cookie? And people don't like that 'cause they're like, oh, well, I don't want my dog to be afraid of me. It's like they're not, they're not afraid of you.

They're afraid of the consequence if they do the wrong behavior. And afraid is a strong word because our corrections are unemotional. They're not threatening, right? They're just uncomfortable.

And so if the more a dog's mental discomfort is, the more the physical discomfort from the correction needs to be. It's not me saying that, it's the dog, right? That's just a fact. That's just how it is. And don't get me wrong, if a lesser correction gets the job done, great, but my experience has been those dogs usually will not be motivated by anything that doesn't overcome their level of mental discomfort. And, and that's kind of common sense, right? So this particular dog, um, would normally work on pretty low levels, like probably single digits, maybe sometimes we were in the low teens, and I don't know what the number was, guys, but I know when we walked by that kennel, she would break her heel and fly into that kennel.

And so we would go around and around and around looking for what motivates her not to do that.

And it was probably in the fifties, it might've been higher, right? But my, so my point is, and it's kind of neat because that gives you a window into the dog's mind too. And like, what's going on in there? And like, how uncomfortable are they, right? So if a 10 motivated her not to run into the kennel, then obviously she wasn't that concerned about being out and doing the work or whatever, being exposed to whatever the things were in the room that scared her. Um, but the more nervous the dog is, the more aroused that nervous system is, the more into overdrive it's going, the more that flight response is kicking in.

The higher that physical feedback, that physical discomfort, even the higher and more intense that's going to need to be to convince the dog, I'm not going to flee, right? It's more uncomfortable to flee than it is to stay here and face my fears. And as uncomfortable as that sounds, and as much as people don't like that and don't wanna do it, it is the beginning of building something better and new because you have to find a way to get the dog to volunteer to do the thing. Right? Now, volunteer is a strong word, people say, right?

42:00 — Kati distinguishes her use of corrections from physically dragging a fleeing dog on a…

Because I am exerting some kind of force on the dog, and that's true, but I'm not physically managing them. I'm not putting them on a leash and dragging them while they try to run away, right? They, they're not happy about it, but they on their own, physically on their own, ultimately choose to stay in a heel because it's more comfortable than running away and into the kennel. And once we accomplish that, now we're cooking with gas because now we have a tool we can use to get the dog to confront these fears and overcome them.

And guess what? It usually starts to happen pretty fast. Because once the dog believes that that's going to be the sequence of events. Once they believe that, they're gonna stop testing that boundary, guys.

That's the key. Once the dog believes that, then they just go, oh, this is non-negotiable. I have to stay here. This is the most comfortable thing to do. And now we've got this amazing thing that we can take out into the world and start desensitizing them to all this stuff. And most dogs go, oh, well, this is pretty good. And guess what? Now I love walking in heel because it's safe. It's so safe. And none of this stuff that I was worried about seems to bother me. None of the cars haven't killed and eaten me.

The Taurus haven't. The bikes. So whatever, heel, great.

So it doesn't matter. It's same thing if you have an aggressive dog that wants to go kill other dogs, right? It's like, all right, there's gonna be a consequence. Once you know heel, there's going to be a consequence high enough that no matter how intense that drive is to lock on and go attack other dogs, the the physical discomfort, the consequence for leaving the heel is high enough that it's not worth it to pursue that. And by the way, as a side note, we don't use heel to fix aggression, it's just part of the recipe.

Fixating on other dogs, locking onto other dogs, reacting to other dogs. Those are all corrected if and when they happen. But a big part of it is, hey, there's a real consequence if you break this heel, don't do it. And again, now we have a tool we can take out into the real world and my dog has a clear path to walk and a way to exist around triggers so that we can actually rehearse that and desensitize them to the presence of these triggers, right? They need to experience being around them in a different way.

46:00 — Kati asks how owners can replace established reactions around other dogs with new behavioral…

Once a dog gets used to, this is what I do around other dogs, this is what I always do. This is my pattern, this is my habit, this is my association. Okay, well, how are you going to create a new one, a new way of existing, a new association? How are you gonna do that? It needs time. It needs reps of your dog behaving a different way. So you have to motivate them to behave a different way, guys. And a cookie isn't going to get it done.

Now if your dog's making better choices and you wanna build those up with some cookies, that might be a fine idea, especially with a nervous dog. If they start coming out of their shell, if they start gaining some confidence and they'll take some food, use some food. But I find in a lot of these cases, people rush first of all to the use of food too soon. You gotta correct the problems first. Everyone wants to reward. Reward and stuff. Food in the dog's mouth all the time. Constantly. Dog needs to know they're good, dog needs to know they're good.

No, the dog needs to be good <laugh>, okay?

And you start getting some traction. Yeah, you can build things up and cement things and maybe build some new associations using some food and that's great. Nothing wrong with that, but it does increase arousal. So I find sometimes people can actually kind of shoot themselves in the foot by being too intent on getting the food in there. That's another topic for another day. I think I actually did an episode on that already, but it might be time to do another one. Um, but so, and that's why the rules don't change. It doesn't matter who your dog is, it doesn't ma— it just, just doesn't matter.

We can adjust our intensity based on your dog and what motivates your dog. But the rules don't change.

Basically we have the same expectations and the same sort of decision tree, consequence tree, no matter where your dog is behaviorally, and it pulls them to the center and it's naturally going to look a little bit different because what motivates every dog is a little bit different. And that's okay. That's to be expected. We wanna meet the dog where they are, who they are, but to be like we're gonna just lop off the use of punishment because of who the dog is or we're gonna lop off the use of positive reinforcement because of who the dog is.

We're gonna lop off the use of a prong collar because of who the dog is. Foolish.

It's foolish. To get the best results, use the best tools, and the best tools are going to be the ones that allow you to develop and to deliver physical communication at a variety of intensities, right? So if, I'll tell you what, if all you could do with a prong collar was punish a dog, like if all you could do is yell with it, if all you could do is be really firm, then no, it would not be the right tool for every dog. But because that's not the case and all, all of the communication is in the handler's hands, all the control is in the handler's hands, the handler absolutely positively, 110% controls when feedback is delivered, how it's delivered, what intensity it's delivered at.

50:00 — Kati favors prong collars and e-collars for their adjustable intensity and cautions that some…

You can be extremely gentle with a prong collar and you can be extremely firm, you can be harsh with a prong collar. You can do it all. And that's why we use it on all dogs.

Same with the e-collar, same, okay? Certain e-collars, certain brands, um, they're too hot. Like you can only be firm. We don't use those. That's why we use the Mini, Mini Educator, e-collar Technologies collars, um, Micro, Mini Educator and Boss, all of them allow you to be very gentle or very firm, very low intensity, very high intensity. Everything in between, a hundred levels, and that's why we use that one. Is structure right for your dog? Yes. Is rules, boundaries, right for your dog? Yes. Is tangible consequences right for your dog? Yes. Is positive reinforcement right for your dog?

Yep. Is punishment right for your dog? Yep. I don't need to know anything about your dog and I can tell you that. I don't need to know anything about your dog. And I can tell you that for the absolute best results, you should give your dog some structure. You should take away a little bit of their freedom, maybe a lot of their freedom. <laugh>, you should use tools that allow you to communicate physically, like prong collars, e-collars.

You should provide positive reinforcement for behaviors you wanna teach or build up. And you should provide punishment for behaviors you want to eliminate. I can tell you those things without knowing your dog. It doesn't matter what breed your dog is, doesn't matter what their personality is, doesn't matter if they're nervous and fearful or aggressive or reactive or separation anxiety, it doesn't matter. What will change is the intensity of these things, the frequency of these things. Um, what motivates your dog, right? 'Cause every dog is different. But all that means is what one dog considers a punishment.

Another one doesn't. It doesn't mean you don't need punishment or that it's all they need. That doesn't change, right? Appropriate contingent consequences, positive and negative, uh, is important no matter who your dog is. Rules and boundaries, a clear path to walk is important no matter who your dog is. Guys, it doesn't matter. These things will produce the best results and the most balanced dog, period.

So hopefully that clears some things up. Hopefully, um, it gives you some peace of mind if you were not sure what path you should be taking with your dog, but um, take it and run with it. You know, it's like a dog is a dog is a dog and they're all different, but they're still all dogs and your dog. There's nothing wrong with your dog most likely, right? I guess there's something wrong with some dogs, but it's pretty rare. There's nothing wrong with your dog. There's nothing wrong with you. You're not crazy. Your dog doesn't have brain damage.

Um, most likely there's just things missing because there's so much crap information out there.

So if you're not using a mix of results, now you know what you need to change, right? And it doesn't matter if your dog is sweet. It doesn't matter what breed your dog is. Like, none of that stuff matters. What matters is it's a dog, a living thing, living organism that makes decisions. They have a mind of their own. And if you don't know how to properly influence that, if you don't know how to provide physical feedback, if you don't know how to provide contingent consequences that actually motivate your specific dog, both motivate them for things they want and things they want to avoid.

55:00 — Kati closes by warning that missing training components can undermine results and encouraging listeners…

If you're missing any of that, your results will suffer. So hopefully with that you dig in, uh, and you make some progress. Good luck, guys, and I look forward to next time. Bye. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time.