Consultation Files: “My Anxious, Submissive Dog Growled at Me”—Now What?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

00:30 — Kati introduces Diamond Canine Dog Training and its focus on off-leash obedience, anxiety, nervousness,…

Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I am Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training, both for off leash obedience and reliability and behavior modification. So helping people stop all of those unwanted behaviors. Everything from barking and jumping and leash, pulling to leash, reactivity, aggression, resource guarding, separation issues, general anxiety, all that stuff love, love, love doing. The more in depth state of mind work with dogs that do tend to be anxious, nervous, or fearful. And you know what? Hold on. 'cause I need to intervene.

Speaker 1: <laugh>, my dogs need an intervention right now. <laugh>, Hey, come on, let's go. No, no, no, no, no. Alright,

Speaker 2: <laugh>,

Speaker 1: Maybe I'll edit that out. Maybe I won't, because maybe I'm just gonna be too lazy. So, uh, what's happening here is I have a playpen and there is a dog chew inside of the playpen, and everybody is trying to get the dog chew. And in the process they are taking down the playpen, um, which we don't even so much use that much anymore. I should probably just take it down. Um, but here we are. I'm sitting in my kitchen, this playpen is taking a half of it, and the dogs are going crazy trying to get the, uh, dog chew out of it, <laugh>.

Speaker 1: So that's, that's what I'm dealing with right now. Anyways, love, love, love doing the in-depth state of mind stuff with dogs. Dogs that tend to be anxious, nervous, fearful, love working with those dogs. Uh, it's very, very rewarding. And so, uh, that's what we do.

Speaker 1: We also offer puppy training, and this podcast is our way of sharing everything that we see and do and talk about with our clients every day with you guys. Uh, so a lot of this information's really hard to find. The Internet's full of garbage. It's full of lies, it's full of ignorance, it's full of so many things. It's full of judgment, but what it isn't full of is accurate information that truly applies in the real world, <laugh>. And so we are very passionate about providing a place where you can find that and openly discuss, uh, behavior, dog behavior training, everything dog.

Speaker 1: Uh, and we'll just tell you the truth, right? So that's what we're really passionate about, is getting this information out there for the people who want it. So that's what we're doing here. So today I had a consultation, um, with, uh, an acquaintance and we, we chatted on the phone for a while about her dog.

Speaker 1: And so this dog really fit into sort of the classic, what I think of as the nervy anxious golden retriever type. And it, it is a golden retriever. Um, and you know, we see historically we've seen that there's sort of a higher tendency for goldens to have these characteristics. And of course, and I know I always say this, any dog can have these characteristics. So whenever we're talking about breed tendencies, they're just that they're tendencies. It doesn't mean they will be that way or that they have to be that way or that they're all that way.

Speaker 1: It just means we see it more or we see a certain collection of traits more often in that specific breed. And so this is a good example of that. This is sort of, he was sort of described as the classic nervy golden retriever. So, and it's not that he's a quote unquote really nervous dog or fearful dog.

Speaker 1: Those aren't really quite the right words, but they tend to be a little higher strung, a little more anxious, and that means they tend to be a little more defensive sometimes. So one of the first dogs that ever really tried to bite me was a golden retriever, and there really wasn't even a lot happening at the time. And for the most part, he seemed like a pretty soft friendly, easygoing guy. Um, but he did have some of these characteristics. And what happened was I was a little stressed out and I was rushing, um, and we had to get out of the house and I opened his crate to get him out.

Speaker 1: You know, I needed to get all the dogs loaded up into the car and everything. That's my life. My life is chaos <laugh>. So this particular day we were running behind, and so I'm moving really fast, right?

05:17 — Kati recalls a rushed, tense crate interaction that prompted her soft Golden to flash…

Speaker 1: Which right off the bat, that can be a trigger. It sets dogs' alarms off, right? Especially if they tend to be kind of a defensive nervy dog. And so I opened up his kennel and he was the type that didn't really like to come out. Like he'd rather just stay in there, especially if he thinks we're gonna go like do work. He is like, no, I'm gonna hang out in here and just lay down. Right? Um, so I, I told him to come out and he didn't, and he wasn't really at the point in his training where we had had a chance to really rehearse that to get the behavior without me physically reaching in.

Speaker 1: And so I did, I reached in and I went to put his gear on him, which would be like his prong collar and his leash. And I was move again, remember I was moving really fast and I just reached in to put it on him.

Speaker 1: And so I'm, I'm kind of, you know, I'm moving with an energy. I'm fast, I'm tense. Like he can sense that. And he just went for me, not like a big deal. He didn't end up getting me. Um, but definitely he tried to use his teeth there. And so that's sort of the type of behavior that we see, uh, a lot, uh, with goldens, uh, and again, can be any dogs. So he certainly wasn't the only one <laugh> to ever do anything like that, that's for sure. Um, so this dog is a little over a year old.

Speaker 1: And what happens when your dog gets to be a year old, a year and a half old? Well, if you've been listening to me for any amount of time or if you're just familiar, um, with dogs, if you've had, you know, hundreds and thousands of interactions with dogs, you know that once they get to be 12 months, 18 months old, you start to see stuff you haven't seen before because they are coming into maturity.

Speaker 1: And so behaviors that are deeply coded in their DNA not learned behaviors, just natural behaviors, uh, are triggered sometimes by that maturation process, by the hormones and all the different things that are going on. And now we start to see things that we didn't see before. That's normal. And so there were definitely signs that this dog was heading, and this dog's not that bad, right? He's got lots of great qualities, but, you know, most dogs do. And the point isn't, you know, what's good about the dog, the point is what are the problems that are surfacing, right?

Speaker 1: Because that's what I'm here to help people with. Yes, we wanna celebrate our wins, but it's like we're not here to talk about how great the dog is. We're here to talk about what are the problems that you're experiencing, what are the things you're concerned about, and what are the things we can do to help you with that?

Speaker 1: So, uh, I just like to bring that up because I think a lot of times when we're talking to people, especially clients that have already gone through a program and we're talking about, you know, we should probably do this, we should probably do that. Um, this is a behavior I wouldn't allow. This is how I would stop that. These things are probably tied together. It's easy to feel like there's something wrong with our dog, or like our dog is a bad dog, or, or like, we're not doing a good job as an owner or as a handler.

Speaker 1: And that's just not the case at all. It's just not the case at all. Um, but our whole goal is to get things to a place where they are as good as possible, where we are as successful as possible, where our dog is absolutely the best version of themselves and things are as polished as they can be, and they're never gonna be perfect, right?

Speaker 1: But our job is to get you as close to that as possible and make sure people reach their goals. So, so when we're talking about your dog in such a way, it's important to remember that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your dog. And actually we had that, we had that brief discussion during the consultation too. It's like, and I, I don't even think I've gotten to what her dog has done yet, but it's just normal. It's just normal dog stuff. So people are always surprised by it, but they shouldn't be, right? So nothing surprises me, <laugh>, because I expect the unexpected, right?

Speaker 1: The only thing you can count on for sure is for things to change, for behavior, to change, for something new to happen. 'cause that's, that's what it does. Like behavior, obviously, like everybody knows this, if they think about it, behavior doesn't just stay the same.

09:47 — The consulted Golden grabbed a cat toy, and the owner later returned to reprimand…

Speaker 1: It naturally evolves, right? Naturally try different things. That's normal. And dogs using their teeth is normal <laugh>. So, um, so what happened in this particular case is the dog got to be came of age, right? So he is a little over a year old and he had gotten a hold of a cat toy, which is something he's not supposed to have, and obviously isn't really safe for him to have because it's fairly small and he could actually ingest it. Um, and he has semi guarded them in the past, meaning he really doesn't want you to take it.

Speaker 1: He makes it clear he doesn't want you to take it. He, he's never bit anybody or anything like that, but it's pretty obvious like he's possessive of it and he wants to hold onto it. Um, so she's, she took it away and that actually was okay, but then she went back with it to reprimand him for like, make him look at it and kind of reprimand him for it.

Speaker 1: Um, and that's when he showed his teeth and growled and she said, whoa, you know, I've never seen that before, right? The classic, I've never seen him do that before. Um, so to her that felt like a sudden change, like a new behavior. But as she described the dog to me, it became obvious that it really wasn't, it was really just an advancement of his current behavior, right? So he had displayed some semi guarding behavior in the past and he had displayed, um, some sort of nervy anxious behavior too. So like pacing, panting, um, those sorts of things, as well as rolling over on his back a lot.

Speaker 1: And that's kind of the one that I want to talk about. So lots of people have puppies or dogs that roll over onto their back or even pee submissively, right? And when we see a dog that does these submissive type behaviors, our mind kind of goes the opposite way.

Speaker 1: So that most people associate that sort of submissive behavior with a dog who is less likely to bite, not me <laugh>, in my opinion, those dogs are often more likely to bite, right? So the word submissive can be very misleading because yes, it is a dog that is rolling over in sort of a don't hurt me, don't kill me sort of posture, right? But what that should tell you is your dog's brain is triggering the self-defense mechanism, right? And they're just choosing like, this is my best defense, right? But what if they choose something else one day, right?

Speaker 1: This is a dog that's more likely to do that than a dog that's not rolling over on their back, A dog that's not peeing submissively. So those dogs are clearly more easily triggered, like that defense mechanism is more easily triggered. So that actually in my opinion, makes them most of the time a somewhat higher bite risk, right?

Speaker 1: And so oftentimes what we see happen is the dog will do sort of the wiggly butt or peeing or rolling over on the back, but then as they get to be 12 months, 18 months old, sometimes they choose to use something different, which is their teeth, right? Sometimes it will evolve into more of a growl or, and or a snap. Um, and so the one thing I conveyed their, 'cause they're testing thyroid and stuff, because this seemed like a sudden behavioral change. And I think that's fine and we'll see what the test says. I guess goldens are prone to thyroid stuff.

Speaker 1: But, uh, based on everything I heard in that consultation and the picture that was painted for me, this was not a sudden behavioral change. Um, this was just sort of an evolution of a behavior that we had seen before, right? So this dog genetically was just inclined to have that defensive, um, that defensive mechanism triggered. And the way that that manifested just evolved over time with maturation, which is pretty common, which is really pretty common. So my point is, if you have a dog, right? Who does that? Who does a submissive p who does the rollover on the back?

14:54 — Kati recommends more exposure and less interaction, including avoiding belly rubs when a dog…

Speaker 1: What do we do with that? So one of the biggest things we do with that I think is more exposure, less interaction, and have an honest assessment of your dog's personality and risk level. So don't be fooled into thinking your dog is a safer dog than most and would never bite somebody because they're so submissive. That's a mistake to think that. So you have to understand when your dog does that behavior that rolling over on their back behavior. Now some dogs are just rolling over to get belly scratches, and I get it, and like, that's fine, but this is often misinterpreted as that and it's not, right?

Speaker 1: So if your dog does that sort of croy down and then roll over, um, especially if they're looking away, that is, don't kill me, right? Don't kill me. And so I would actually, a lot of people will see that, and then they'll move in and do the belly scratches and everything, and it's like, belly scratches are great if that's actually what's happening. But if your dog is just going into defense mode, that's actually probably not the best time to do belly scratches. Probably not, especially with a stranger,

Speaker 1: Right? So we're sort of choosing to engage with a dog that's telling us I'm wildly uncomfortable. And really the better thing to do would probably be either not to interact or to interact in a different way where the dog feels a little bit less threatened, right? So again, the exposure piece is huge. Like just having your dog around people, letting people get close, letting people look at them, letting people maybe even talk to them, right? But they don't have to touch them, number one, because there is risk. But number two, because it's not actually helpful to just continually, repeatedly send our dogs into that state.

Speaker 1: And then sometimes what happens is the dog just gets sick of it and they bite someone. All right? So it might be a little different for you at home. If you have a relationship with your dog and they trust you more, it might be different. Although I will still say, if you're still still seeing that same kind of behavior, then it applies to you too. Like, it's probably best not to engage physically when your dog does that. I would feel more inclined to call my dog up if they did that,

Speaker 1: Right? And then, I mean, what we do would just depend on the dog and the whole picture. But I think it's really easy to get sucked into the idea that our dog is safer because they're submissive when they're actually not. And I think it's easy to interpret it as just wanting belly rubs when it's not.

Speaker 1: And so all we see dogs where a lot of these traits are all tied together, and this was just a really good example of that where it started pretty early with like extreme over arousal, right? Lots of pacing, lots of panting, like the tight mouth, like people show up and the dog's just zigzagging and back and forth, right? And panting all over the place and the tail's going, and then they're jumping on people. And it's like the jumping on people is pretty common. Yes. But you take all these traits together and the dog shakes, right?

19:00 — Pacing, panting, shaking, and jumping can reflect adrenaline and anxiety rather than genuine happiness.

Speaker 1: Especially if you try to make them be still, they're just shaking like a leaf because they're just so full of adrenaline, right? And then they're also just the nervy kind of dog, and they're rolling over on their back.

Speaker 1: So you put all this stuff together and it really paints a picture of a dog that's super uncomfortable. And I think people miss that and they think, oh, my dog's a happy go lucky. Um, social dog is excited when people show up and it's like, your dog's kind of a mess, right? And fortunately, these are people that recognize that, like she knew that. And so she's really excited, um, to get some training in place to help her dog be more confident and more comfortable and less anxious. And also to give them a little bit more, uh, trust so they can include him and they don't have to worry.

Speaker 1: Um, especially when there is a child in the home. So now that the dog has evolved and resorted to, um, using warnings like growling, showing teeth, um, they don't wanna risk that going anywhere else. And I think that's really, really smart <laugh>.

Speaker 1: And you know, right now the dog doesn't really get a lot of high value, like chew things because they're worried that it could be a guarding, situ, uh, situation. Potentially if they did that and based on everything they told me, it would be this, I, I believe this is a dog that would absolutely bite their family members under the right situation with a high value resource. So can't wait, um, to have this dog. Looks like it's probably gonna be later, next month. And, uh, of course we'll post everything on social media as we're working with this dog.

Speaker 1: And, uh, I think this is gonna be a phenomenal experience for them. I think it's gonna be life changing. Um, they're gonna, you know, this dog still has his whole life ahead of him, so they'll be able to do so much more, uh, and have so much more confidence.

Speaker 1: It'll be, uh, it'll be really, really great. But I think there's a ton of people out there that just have dogs that sort of fit this, you know, no dog fits perfectly and neatly into one box. Um, but like I said, this group of personality traits is a really, really common thing. And my own dog is half golden and half pity, supposedly according to the DNA test. And he really doesn't look like it. Um, but he does behave like it. So I tend to believe <laugh>, it's probably accurate. And he, he also has these defensive traits.

Speaker 1: And so he's got, you know, the social aspect and he wants the attention and he wants to run up to people. And I think I've mentioned this before, and in the past, he, you know, when I would, obviously, I don't let him do this now, but he would run up to people, he would actually press himself right into them to get affection.

22:00 — Kati describes a dog seeking affection but growling when people make direct eye contact.

Speaker 1: But then if he would look up and see that they were looking into his eyes, which they always are, right? 'cause that's what people do, uh, then he'd start growling and those hackles would be up. And so that's not a good scene. Um, of course, but that's that defensive mechanism being triggered, right? So they can't help it. Like even the dogs that do want to be social and want affection, and maybe they do want to say hi, but biologically their brain is just triggered by the specific stimuli. And it might be the hand reaching out, it might be the eye contact, it might be both, right?

Speaker 1: It might just be someone being tall or a man, just the energy that they exude. Or it might just be all strangers. Like it can be any number of things. But for a lot of dogs, it's just going to trigger that sort of defensive mechanism.

Speaker 1: And then you see that manifest through any number of things, whether it be peeing rolling over on the back, sometimes it's just a, the butt kind of starts shaking and the head gets low and they just sort of rattle all over, right? That's sort of the lowest level version we see of this. Um, or sometimes it can be growling, it can be barking, it could be biting <laugh>, right? And so just because you see one symptom exhibited doesn't mean you won't eventually see the others. And so it's important to keep that in mind. And, uh, what we do with a dog like this is we're gonna lay that obedience foundation and we're gonna start requiring it.

Speaker 1: And we're gonna add some structure to this dog's life as well. So, lots of crate time, lots of place time. Um, when we are around other people, there's going to be, uh, lots of direction, right?

Speaker 1: So we're not gonna leave the dog on their own to figure it out. We're gonna be very, very clear about, Hey, do this, do that, right? And of course, there's accountability for it. So that really eliminates a lot of question marks for the dog, which then in turn eliminates a lot of that anxiety, right? So now, now they know like there's no question marks, there's no uncertainty. I know exactly what to do. I know how to do it 'cause I've done it many times and I know it's expected that I have to do, it's not negotiable.

Speaker 1: And so then we start to get into, um, setting a really good pattern of behavior with the dog and it will get easier with time. And then, you know, with you doing all of this and providing the accountability, right? That garners a lot more respect for the leadership in the home, a lot more respect for the humans in general, for their handler, for their owners.

Speaker 1: And we can even, um, do some stuff to garner a lot more respect for children in the home as well, which is so, so important. You don't want your dog roaming around the house feeling like, Hey, this is my castle and these are all of my things that are in it, right? Where their toys are just scattered all over the place and their food bowl is sitting there 'cause they free feed all day. That's not great for a dog that has the mindset of guarding their things, right? Because we're making this a place that where they're just surrounded and it's just filled with their things.

Speaker 1: So from a dog that has exhibited any kind of guarding behavior, this nervy defensive behavior, all of that, we really want them to have a healthy respect for their handlers and to know that's where the direction's coming from and that it's non-negotiable. And to know that none of the resources are really, truly theirs. They belong to the humans, right? And the humans will share at their discretion, meaning, I'll take your toys out and we can play, right? But then I'm gonna pick 'em up. I'm gonna put 'em away, right? I'm, I'm gonna feed you every day, but if you don't eat it, I'm gonna take it out and put it away.

25:54 — Hard eye contact and reaching into a dog’s mouth create unnecessary confrontation around guarded…

Speaker 1: And I can do that at any time because all of the resources here are mine, right? And so what we don't like to do is we never like to threaten a dog when they have a resource, right? And so making hard eye contact, walking up to a dog, especially reaching into their mouth to remove something that is, uh, very confrontational. And people don't realize that. And some people think that they should be able to just go up to their dog and take anything away from them. And like in a perfect world, I guess I agree, right?

Speaker 1: But it's not a perfect world and dogs aren't robots and they, it's just a natural dog behavior to hold on to resources. It's a very primal survival behavior. So it's a very tall order if you ask me to be able to do a confrontational thing like that with a dog and threaten to steal a resource and have them just be totally fine with it. A lot of dogs are not gonna be fine with that guys.

Speaker 1: A lot of dogs are not gonna be fine with that. And so what we do, what our baseline is, is you should be able to give your dog a resource, rather it's a, a chew or a toy, you know, or a bone. And you should be able to walk by them and behave normally and be in the room, right? Some people can't even walk in the room and your dog should not threaten you. They should not display nervous guardy behavior. They should not get stiff, right? They shouldn't growl none of that. It's not allowed. And we have a very, very firm conversation with the dog about that if and when they do it.

Speaker 1: Now, what does that mean? It means we provide a very, very high correction for a behavior like that. So we don't mess around. This is the type of behavior we really wanna put to bed.

Speaker 1: So we normally mark it with a no, and then we follow that no, with an extremely high consequence. So normally that's gonna be a very high correction on an E and we're gonna hold that button down for several seconds, right? So being honest here, it's an ugly, ugly correction. It's not fun. But again, if you do it correctly, you often don't even have to do it again, right? You certainly won't have to do it over and over again or every day, right? This is a conversation you need to get your point across, uh, that that behavior just is not going to be tolerated, it's not acceptable.

Speaker 1: Uh, and it's not safe to not do that, by the way. It is not safe to leave that guarding behavior intact, even if you're a careful person and you are using, uh, management, you know, and say you're not giving your dog high value resources because you're afraid of something like this, or you only give them to them in their kennel, which I think is great by the way.

29:13 — Kati warns that management alone fails because guarding behavior can expand as the dog…

Speaker 1: And I'm not saying don't do those things, but I'm saying management fails. Management fails and behavior evolves. So if your dog only does that with high value resources today, that doesn't mean they won't do it with an empty bowl tomorrow. You don't know, right? So this is a behavior, we're just not gonna leave that behavior intact. We're going to inhibit that behavior and we're very, very good at doing that <laugh>. So, so that needs to be done. Um, and then in addition to that, we are also going to teach the out command, right? Because I agree that you should be able to take resources away from your dog.

Speaker 1: You should really maintain ownership of all resources at all times. Um, but we're not gonna take it away by just going and putting, having a confrontation with the dog. So when you walk up to the dog with a high value resource and you look at them and you stare at them, and especially when you reach for something, you are having a confrontation with your dog. That is conflict. Some dogs respond better to that than others, right? So we need a way to maintain ownership of the resource and remove the resource without conflict. And we can do that by a, addressing the guarding behavior and b, teaching the dog a command.

Speaker 1: That means you need to put the resource down, you need to walk away from it. It's not yours anymore.

Speaker 1: And so we will teach dogs that command. Uh, we're usually using the out command, uh, when we do a board and train, that's three plus weeks that usually comes with it, and it will absolutely come with it if it's a resource guarding dog, right? So now we're approaching it from both sides of the coin, which I think is really, really important. You cannot rely, I know I say this all the time, you cannot rely on commands to fix behavioral issues, right? So I don't think that just teaching your dog the out command fixes resource guarding.

Speaker 1: I think most dogs you have to have that conversation with them that says, Hey, you cannot guard things like that. You cannot threaten me. No, no, no. And I'm gonna teach you a command so that I can take things away from you easily with no conflict, right? And that's a process. That piece takes some training, takes some skill, right? But it's a fantastic, fantastic command. And I will say just doing proper training with your dog where there's real accountability, sometimes that alone, the resource guarding disappears because it just puts the dog in a different head space.

Speaker 1: It makes the humans more relevant.

Speaker 1: And suddenly you don't see those behaviors anymore. I've had dogs come in here that are known resource guarders, and they never display that behavior for us because things are so different here, right? We're using structure, we're controlling things, we're giving direction, we're holding the dogs accountable. And guess what? They never guard anything from us <affirmative>. But not all dogs. Not all dogs. But so that's why we tell people like this is a great way to raise your dog, is with real boundaries and like real rules and expectations, right? Because then you're just way less likely to see the stuff in the first place.

Speaker 1: Doesn't mean you won't, you can do everything right and still see it, right? But it just puts your dog into the most respectful possible head space. So you see the best version of your dog versus giving your dog total freedom and never really enforcing any rules or expectations. And then you see the worst version of your dog. But resource guarding really, really common. Again, like people feel like, oh my God, they're just horrified when they see this from their dog. And I'm here to tell you like, that's a natural dog behavior. I'm not saying it's great.

Speaker 1: Like it's not safe, it's not acceptable. We can't allow it, right? But there's nothing wrong with your dog. It's a normal behavior.

Speaker 1: But I think people are especially shocked <laugh> to see it come from their dog when their dog has been what they always thought of as a submissive dog. So worth remembering, things aren't always as they seem, right? And just because you see quote unquote some submissive behaviors from your dog doesn't mean that they are any less likely, uh, to use their teeth, especially at some point in their life as they move through maturity.

Speaker 1: So anyways, I'm excited to see this guy and meet him and, um, lay a good foundation with him and get some better stuff from him. I think this is gonna be great for his family. Um, but if you're dealing with a dog at home that fits some of these characteristics, um, share some of these characteristics that we were talking about today. The nervy submissive type, uh, nervous p sort of rolling over on their back. Uh, hopefully you can implement some of the key things that we talked about, especially some of the easier things, which is like more exposure, but less interaction, um, not interacting when they're in that state of rolling over on their back.

Speaker 1: And, um, watching them, you know, as they move through maturity, as they move through that maturation process, um, for signs of discomfort around strangers. Like, you know, we, everyone makes a mistake of just letting everyone touch their dog. And, and there's, there's just risk in that, especially if your dog doesn't like it. And I think people just get fooled into thinking their dog likes it,

35:24 — Kati advises watching for stranger discomfort and pursuing training that builds confidence and respect…

Speaker 1: Um, when they really don't. And it's triggering that defensive mechanism like we talked about, uh, watching them for signs of guarding, watching them for signs of, uh, conflict with the other animals in the house, watching how they are with the kids in the house, right? So, so important, um, because your dog is telling you from a very young age, often that they're really uncomfortable. And even though that's not generating an actual problem for you right now, it could down the road. So it's worth pursuing some training and, you know, working with somebody, um, who can get your dog into a more confident headspace, but also a more respectful headspace so that as they do grow and learn and evolve, um, it goes down the right path, right, instead of getting worse.

Speaker 1: That's it for today guys. Thank you so much for joining me. Please, please, please submit your questions or topics you'd like to stu discuss <laugh> to me Kati at Diamond Canine dot com. That's Kati, Kati at diamond, C-A-N-I-N e.com. Would love to hear from you again, thanks so much for joining us and I look forward to the next time.