Our Favorite E-collar Question: What Level?

00:00 — Kati Peppe opens Off Leash and Unfiltered and asks listeners to subscribe.

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey, how's everybody doing today? This episode's coming out a little bit late. Sorry, I've been spinning my wheels lately. Uh, happens every now and then. Things get crazy and I fall a little bit behind, but we're here now, <laugh>.

We're here now and let's see what's new. What's been going on? Um, not a whole lot. We're interviewing somebody on Friday that's super exciting. Somebody with some dog experience. Um, we're restructured, so we're not offering standalone puppy training anymore, but we do have a couple more puppies signed up and we're still taking them, but we're only taking puppies now that, um, are signed up at the same time to come back later for their adult dog training. Um, so we don't have standalone puppy training anymore. Um, however, I am going to offer an online puppy course, which is really exciting.

So with the couple of puppies that we have, um, signed up to come still, and um, also all the footage I have from previous puppies, I do plan on putting together a puppy course that you can take online. So, um, and while we're on the subject, if you don't know, we do offer, uh, one online course right now.

It's called 10 Days to a Great Place. And that course is designed for folks who are new to the e-collar. Um, basically, you know, I talk to a ton of people who say, well, I have an e-collar, but I haven't dared to open it. I haven't dared to do anything with it. If you're one of those people, this course is perfect for you. Um, because what it's gonna do is it's going to take you through all the basics about setting it up and the habits you wanna get into with it right away, and how to introduce your dog to it, and it'll walk you through the place command from start to finish with the e-collar.

Um, so it gives you a really, really solid foundation. It's a great way to get your feet wet. It's a great way to teach your dog the place command, which is amazing <laugh>. And it starts really, um, it, it, it helps your dog start really developing a relationship with the e-collar and understanding how it's tied to their behavior. So it's a great foundation, highly, highly recommend. That's available in our shop at diamondcanine dot com. And that's C-A-N-I-N-E. Okay, let's jump in. Uh, we've got a good one for you today because here's a question I get all the time.

03:00 — Kati introduces the recurring question of which e-collar number an owner should use.

What number, what number is it? What number do I use? What number does he need? I don't know, <laugh>. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about how we pick the number. So if you're already e-collar training, or even if you're considering e-collar training, uh, this is probably a really great episode to listen to because this is something that's on everybody's mind. I mean, when we dig into e-collar training with our clients, this is probably the number one thing everybody wants to know. And you know, even like on social media when we post videos, the top question is always what number, what number, what number?

So I want to talk about that today. Um, so first let me start by saying, guys, when we e-collar train, there are so many things we can do, right? So e-collars, um, they are shock collars. They do use electrical stimulation. Yes, most of them have a vibrate function. I shut it off. We don't use it, not because I'm a big meanie, okay? So hear me out. Here's the thing most people don't know about e-collars, at least the ones that we use. They're not all this way, okay? So when I say e-collar, I'm talking about e-collar Technologies e-collars. I'm not talking about anybody else's e-collars, and there are some other good ones out there.

Um, but there aren't many that are this versatile. And this is the one that we use.

The units that we use, they have 100 levels, okay? On our most common model, which is the Mini Educator, I cannot feel the first 12 levels. So I, I have to put it on a 12 to notice it at all when it's on my own skin. So that surprises a lot of people because they don't realize that, and that's why I don't use the term shock collar. So there's a lot of people, trainers out there saying, it's not a shock collar. Yes it is. And so I, if, if you listen to me at all, you know, I, I try to be precise in my speech and I don't like to beat around the bush.

I don't like to be indirect, I don't like to sugarcoat things. Um, I, you know, I'm not trying to be, um, obnoxious or offend anybody, but it is what it is, what it is, right? So <laugh>, I need a shirt that says that too. It is what it is. What it's, uh, it is a shock collar. However, it can be very gentle.

So I can whisper with an e-collar. So if I just went around saying shock collar, shock collar, right? If I started every phone call with, we use shock collars. A lot of people aren't gonna stick around to find out what they're all about. Um, and it's important because the, well, let's get back to the vibrate, right? Here's the thing about vibrate. It doesn't have a hundred levels. It has one level, vibrate <laugh>, and like I just told you, those first 12 levels of shock, I can't even feel them. So back before I used to shut off the vibrate function on my collars because you can program them to do all sorts of different things.

07:00 — Kati describes accidentally activating vibration and startling dogs, particularly sensitive ones.

They're very fancy. Before I used to shut off that function, sometimes I would accidentally hit vibrate instead of the shock and the dogs would hit the ceiling because it surprised them so much. And some dogs, the real soft sensitive dogs, it would scare them to death, right? So I'm not saying that vibrate is bad either, that's not what I'm saying. But for some dogs in some context, depending on what we're doing, it's way too much, believe it or not. So a lot of people don't realize that they feel like they're being nice using vibrate.

Vibrate can be a lot, like way more than we need in some contexts.

So when I'm trying to give a dog a very subtle reminder to help them settle, settle to help them disengage from something that they're tracking that they're worried about, right? I can use very low electrical stimulation, right? The stim, we call it, to help them do that. And then you'll hear the, and they'll just relax. If I hit vibrate in that moment, that would not happen with most dogs. They would pop up, they would get very tense, um, they would get antsy. It would be the complete opposite of what we're going for because too much.

And then there are instances where you have a dog who is about to chase something who's in high prey drive, right? If I hit vibrate in that moment, it's gonna trigger him to run and go because it's not enough, right? And he's not even gonna notice it. Once he's moving, it's not even gonna feel it, guys, because it's not enough. So it's really important when you're doing this kind of training that you have a tool that goes up and down in intensity. So I always say when I'm in my phone consultations that the vibrate function, in my opinion, is about as useful as a broken watch.

It's right about twice a day and the rest of the time it's wrong. It's not gonna be what you need, it's gonna be too much or not enough. Um, and so that's why we don't use it. It's just silly.

I have so much more versatility with the shock function. It gives me everything I need. I can whisper, I can tap the dog on the shoulder, I can use it at a level that's motivating, that's subtly annoying, or I can make it really uncomfortable. And we do in certain contexts, right? And we'll talk about that. Um, but I can do all of those things, all of them. I can pull my dog to me, I can help my dog settle. I can give my dog a little reminder, right? All these things, you can't do all of that with vibrate.

And a lot of it depends on the dog too, 'cause all dogs are different sensitivity levels. But I mean it would essentially be like using the shock function and leaving it at one locked number all the time. And uh, I know that doesn't work. <laugh>

One of the reasons I know that doesn't work is because those people trained somewhere else and then they come here because it's not working. Like, yeah, we did e-collar training, but I think my dog needs a refresher. It's like, no, you need a refresher because the information you got was wrong. Your dog understands it, but you don't know how to do it, right? Because the trainer tells them this is the level or the people just don't get enough education. They spend 10 minutes with the person, which is not enough. And then the person goes home and is still scared of it and doesn't dare to change the number.

11:00 — Kati rejects leaving an e-collar on a trainer-selected number and urges owners to adjust…

So then they come here and they go, I don't know, the trainer had it on a nine and it's on a nine and that's where it stays. Okay, that's not gonna work. It's not gonna work.

So you have to get comfortable, um, with changing that level. And that's why we don't recommend vibration. We do use the beep, uh, but we usually are using the beep as a recall. In other words, we teach dogs when they hear the beep, but that means they should turn around and run back to us. Um, that's it. We don't use it for anything else. We don't usually use it as a marker or a warning. Although I have in the past, um, I've had some dogs with some serious separation anxiety. I couldn't always be there to mark it with a no.

So I started using the beep function as a no. You can definitely do that. We're not gonna talk about that today.

Um, but we, we don't use beep or vibrate in lieu of shock to be nice because it's silly <laugh>. So we don't do that. Um, you know, beep is worse than vibrate because beep is essentially nothing. It's just a noise, right? And you can associate it with something, but still just an association. And so over time that association will change. If it's not actually followed by any kind of a correction, then that association will go away, right? It's not gonna stay forever. Um, alright, so moving on. When we train with an e-collar, we usually want, I wanna first dispel a myth.

We usually start by teaching your dog how the e-collar is tied to their behavior. We'll do a little exercise called Wi-Fi. Now if you buy the 10 days to a great place, you will see the Wi-Fi exercise. It is in there. Um, it is the first thing we have you do with your e-collar to start kind of just, just giving your dog a little bit of a peek into how it's tied to their behavior, right?

So it's not brandy new when you start the place command. They have felt it, they start to understand that it's coming from you. They start to understand that they can turn it off by moving toward you, right? So that's kind of the beginning. Um, and so we like to do that and those levels are very, very low, right? That's essentially going to be the, the level that is just high enough that your dog can feel it. So it's like a tap on the shoulder. Um, and what we'll do is at that same level, usually right in that ballpark, we are gonna go through all of their commands, right?

So we're gonna teach them the sit command, the down command, the place command and recall, right? Come, um, and we're gonna tie that very low stimulation to those commands. And this stimulation, 99% of the time it's under a tent.

And remember, I can't feel it till it's on 12. So super neat. Dogs tend to be a little more sensitive, skin's a little thinner or whatever. They notice it, um, at lower levels than a human does and generally will respond in a low distraction environment, which is where you wanna start, right? But we're not going through how to e-collar train today. I just wanna talk about the different levels we're using in different contexts, right? So generally speaking, when we're just doing obedience training, when we're just starting out, it's very, very low. We're in a low distraction environment.

14:00 — During initial teaching, Kati uses food and low stimulation rather than increasing levels to…

Um, we're using food too, but the levels are low and we're not turning them up to get the dog to do something. We don't do that in the beginning, guys. I want you to remember that teaching your dog to do behaviors is actually more difficult and more complicated than teaching them not to do behaviors. And I know that sounds backwards because that's what everyone struggles with, right? Everyone struggles with getting their dog to stop doing things, but that's actually the easier piece of the training. Your dog jumps, your dog pulls, like that stuff, we can knock that out in one day, done, right?

But getting your dog to go to place and lay down, that takes much longer.

That takes a lot longer, 'cause you're asking your dog to perform an act which is much more difficult than just not doing something, right? 'Cause there's really no special expectation other than not jumping. So that's much easier to execute. Um, when you're teaching your dog to move a certain way, to go to a certain place, to perform a task, that is harder and takes longer. Anyway, we're using very low levels for all of this until they understand it, right? So once we get to what we call the messy middle phase of training, can also call it non-compliance training, we're still not punishing anything.

We're still not turning that level way up. But this is the phase where we start to experiment with increasing that level. When the dog isn't listening, when they're ignoring us, when they're distracted, um, when they make a mistake and they get off.

Like if we're doing place and they get off the cot early, right? Or if we're doing down and they get up outta their down early, right? We turn on that stim and we turn it on at a level that's a little more motivating. So once we get to that middle phase of obedience training, that's when we start experimenting with turning that level up a little bit. And generally speaking, dogs still need help at that phase of training, right? Once you start to increase that accountability, they might go, oh, what is, I don't know what to do with this.

This is different, right? They might even panic a little bit. Like they just don't know, like, what's happening. We haven't done this before. It's new, so we help 'em. Um, but this looks wildly different for every dog, guys. If you have a dog that's in that first phase of obedience training where we call it conditioning and they're on a five, when we move into non-compliance and we start increasing that accountability, for some dogs, that might be a seven.

For some dogs it might be a 37. So that's why when people say, well, what number do I use? I don't know. I have no idea. It depends entirely on your dog. So at that middle phase of training that we call the messy middle, right, or non-compliance, we're usually, we're not, we're still not really looking for the level that gets them to do it. At least not at first. We're looking for the level that we can tell they care about. So it's motivating, right? And usually what we'll see happen, let's take place as an example.

Like we'll put the dog on place, they'll make a mistake and step off before they're supposed to. So we mark it with a no. We turn on our stimulation, right? And this is Joyce's favorite strategy and I often use it in this context as well. We hold the button down at that low level they're conditioning at, which is, you know, let's say a five for example.

18:00 — Kati describes gradually increasing stimulation until the dog notices, then stepping in to offer…

And we slowly turn it up, up, up. Say the dog gets off, they're kind of sniffing around, they're going to check stuff out, we're turning it up, up, up. And then eventually we see the dog go, "Ooh." And they kind of stop, right? And maybe they kind of stiffen up a little bit or they kind of turn their head a little bit and you can tell they're going, "Well, oh, what is this? This is different. Something's happening." And that's where we stop and we step in and we offer help, right? So now the dog is starting to experience, oh, this little thing that I feel on my neck, like it's nothing, right?

It's like a tap on the shoulder. But in this context it turns up, it gets hotter, right? And it gets to a point where I'd probably prefer to shut it off, right?

It's really annoying or it's mildly uncomfortable. And we step in and we give the dog help. And we do lots of reps like that. So the dog starts to understand this sensation can actually change. It can increase, it's still tied to your behavior and this is how you shut it off. This is how you fix the mistake, right? Lots of reps, but that can be a totally different number depending on the dog. Some dogs are very soft and sensitive and some dogs are not. Some dogs are very obtuse and they don't care at all. And some dogs just don't notice it at all.

Right? And the more excited a dog is, the less they're gonna notice it. So even the same dog in different contexts, that number might be wildly different. So you have take one dog who's conditioning at a five in a low-distraction environment. Then when you move to the non-compliance messy middle phase, they make a mistake. But you're in a low-distraction environment and you turn it up to a 10 and a 10 seems to be where they start to go, "Oh, what is this? I need to turn this off." Right? That same dog, if they see a squirrel or a person comes through the door or they hear someone in the driveway, it might not be a 10, it might be a 50, right?

Or 20 or 27.

Because something is different in the environment that's arousing the brain and the receptors start to become dampened, right? The brain becomes devoted to the trigger and starts drowning out physical sensations. And that's normal. But so if you stay stuck at one level on your e-collar, you're dead in the water. It's just not gonna, it's not gonna get through, right? So that's how levels differ during the obedience training. And then ultimately in the end, guys, once the dog is very fluent, again very fluent, they've had tons of reps, they've worked in lots of environments, they've had lots of practice, they've had lots of reps in the non-compliance space.

21:00 — For well-established commands, Kati describes using a high correction for non-compliance.

So they understand it increases and how to shut it off and where to go and what to do, all these things. Eventually at some point we do just tie a very high correction for non-compliance of something that they know, right? Your dog knows this command, they know it very well, they break it, there's a punishment for that. So that's marked with a no and something much higher. And then we just reset the dog if they don't reset themselves. Um, but that is ultimately how we would phase out all that messy non-compliance.

'Cause even if you can turn it on, it's something that's a little motivating and your dog goes back, you'll be doing that forever, right? Because your dog, they're not stupid, guys. They're gonna take the help and take the warnings for as long as you will give them <laugh>. Okay? So once your dog knows something very well, and if they don't, they don't, right? Then you're not ready to move to the step. But if they do, that is how you ultimately clean it all up in the end, right? And seal the deal. Put a period at the end of the sentence, like this is expected.

So you can see the various stages we have to go through with obedience and the e-collar and how the level changes, um, gradually throughout the process. And it's not just the level either, but it's the stimulation pattern, right? So I described to you during the conditioning phase and often during the non-compliance phase, we're holding the button down and it doesn't shut off until we get the thing that we want. Um, and we can even hold it down. And while we're holding it down and stimming, we're gradually turning that level up and then it shuts off when we get what we want, when we get, or when we get the dog to commit to doing what we want, right?

Um, but you don't have to do it that way. Sometimes we just tap, sometimes we do a constant tapping that seems to be very effective with some dogs. So every dog responds a little bit differently and we'll kind of try all this stuff to see what does this dog respond to.

So it's just such an amazing versatile tool. Um, but the level could be anywhere just depending on what we're seeing. Now let's talk about unwanted behaviors because when we see those, that is not our approach, guys. So when I say unwanted behaviors, I'm talking about behaviors your dog does that you never wanna see again, right? Stuff they just don't need to do. First one that comes to mind is what? Jumping, right? Second one that comes to mind is what? Barking. Barking out the window, barking at the mailman, getting into the trash, digging holes, chewing shoes, <laugh>, the list goes on.

24:00 — Kati distinguishes unwanted behaviors from obedience tasks and introduces punishment as her approach to…

Our dogs have all kinds of shitty behaviors. <laugh>

Uh, that's normal, right? Dogs, they're just being dogs. But that doesn't mean that we have to tolerate those behaviors because your dog, in order to have a good relationship with you and a happy full life at home, they need to fit into your life. So if your dog's doing those things, um, you need to eliminate those behaviors. And the way you do that is with a punisher, with an inhibitor, with the correction, whatever you wanna call it. So with things we never wanna see our dog do again, we just crank that puppy up. Okay, yes, there's a right and wrong way to do it.

This is not the punishment episode. I'm not gonna go through the whole process. But I will say, 'cause I always like, um, to add in, you know, to mention the most important aspects, which is we always mark the behavior with a "no" first. And then we follow it up with a very high consequence.

Uh, so in people when they first start e-collar training, it makes them very nervous. They're very uncomfortable about it. That's understandable. We take it for granted, right? 'Cause we do this all the time. All the time. And we know it's gonna be fine. We know what the outcome is. We know there's no backlash. There's no drawbacks, there's no damage to the relationship. It doesn't hurt the dog. We know that 'cause we do it all the time. What happens is the dog start—stops doing the shitty behavior. That's what happens, <laugh>. So, um, but it's easy for us to say, right?

'Cause we just do it all the time and we know that. But people when they're doing it for the first time, especially with their own dogs, you know, um, they're a little more apprehensive naturally. So we, when we do it, we don't even look at the remote.

We don't even look at it. Guys, love the show? Well, I have great news. We are offering an inexpensive subscription to our new premium content. This is content that isn't available to the general public. We make it just for our subscribers. We're gonna cover a variety of new topics in these episodes and I think it's gonna be a ton of fun. So you can jump right down into the show notes to get that website address and then skip over there and sign up for this premium content. Just wanted to take a second to let you guys know about that.

Thank you so much for your support. And now on with the show. Why? Doesn't really matter. We know that it needs to be much higher and we're not super concerned about it being too high because what does that even really mean? How can it be too high? It can be higher than necessary, but even if it is, it's not the end of the world. Your dog's not going to explode.

27:00 — Kati argues that insufficient punishment creates repeated corrections rather than stopping the unwanted behavior.

Okay? And here's the thing, being too high in that context is way better than not being high enough. And guess what everybody does? They hesitate, they're nervous and they're not high enough and they screw the pooch, pardon the expression, because they're desensitizing the dog to the corrections and the dog is going to try the behavior again and again and again. And they end up just in this nag zone where they're telling the dog all the time, "No," correction. "No," correction, "No," correction, "No," correction. Um, and it's not doing any good. And that becomes their life.

Whereas if you're quote unquote too high, well, your dog's gonna have a pretty unpleasant moment. You're probably gonna bawl your eyes out because you feel guilty, but you're probably never gonna have to do it again. <laugh>, because little Fluffy isn't gonna jump on people anymore.

So, high for stuff you wanna stop, it's higher. How high? I don't know. I don't know your dog. And I also, I don't really look at the number most of the time. Here's the exception. If we're talking about something the dog is allowed to do sometimes, right? In other words, things that maybe they're allowed to do, but only by invite, like eat their food, right? I don't allow dogs to just go eat their food when I set it down. If they do, there's a correction. I don't correct them at a 90, right? Because that is such a high correction to most dogs that then they're gonna be leery to eat afterwards if I did that.

So then when I do say, "Okay, break, you can go eat," they're gonna go, "Going near that bowl? Fuck you." Right? Um, not that they would never eat again, they would, but it would take some time, right?

We would have to encourage them, that sort of thing. So it's more work to regenerate the behavior. But now take that logic and it apply it to something you don't wanna see again, right? Like a dog that jumps or gets into the trash, okay? It would take work to regenerate the behavior. That's a good thing because we don't want to regenerate that behavior, right? Those are things we don't ever wanna see again. So you don't have to hold back on your level, but eating without an invite or if you have a dog that you allow to get up on the couch, but only when you invite them.

Like those are good examples, right? Or if you're teaching your dog to hold a down while you throw a ball or a Frisbee or something, right? If you correct them really, really high, um, then they might for a little while temporarily display some hesitance to chase the ball, the stick, the Frisbee, right? So in those contexts, I would probably be a little more careful about my level.

30:00 — Kati says the appropriate number depends on the individual dog and its excitement in…

But to, you know, what number? I don't know what number. Depends on the dog, depends on how excited they get in those contexts, right? 'Cause that's gonna elevate the number. Might be a 10, might be a 60, I don't know. And yes, we have dogs like that. We have dogs where a 60 is just a tap on the shoulder. In a situation like that, you're holding a ball. They might not even feel a 60. Labs <laugh>. A lot of Labs are like that. Um, now there's a lot of breeds. It doesn't matter the breed, but, um, just, we've just had a lot of drivey Labs lately.

<laugh>. So I had one that was like that around water. You know? Um, it just depends. It depends. It depends. So it's not about what the number says on your remote. It's about what am I seeing? So stop looking at your number and start looking at your dog.

And you turn the dial until you start seeing signs that you're getting what you wanna get, right? That you are getting through, right? So even if your dog's not doing the behavior you want them to do, you can tell that it's getting through and that they're hearing it, right? And then maybe they just need some help so you can help 'em. Um, but until, you know, once you know they're really fluent, then you might be higher on that level even. But you gotta get 'em there first. Um, but so that number, it, it differs wildly based on the dog's genetics and their sensitivity level, but also their excitement level.

Here's a thing people don't know, a lot of people don't know: sniffing, um, it excites the brain so, so much. You know, it eats up like two thirds of the brain or something if your dog is sniffing. Sniffing is hugely exciting to dogs, okay? So that's why we don't allow it at heel. There's no sniffing.

I mean, they're essentially scrolling the Gram while they're walking with you. No. Um, but your level might jump, might double, it might triple, might increase four or five times. Just sniffing. I often tell the story of Aki, the Doberman <laugh>, who he, and he was so sensitive too when he was younger, so, so sensitive and he still can be. Um, but he also, man, once he went through maturity in certain situations, he was sniffing some and I called him and he ignored me. So I turned it up and I didn't look at it 'cause I never do.

Um, and he still ignored me. So I turned it up some more and he still ignored me. So I turned it up some more and I hit the end of the dial and he still ignored me, guys. I was on a hundred. He didn't even turn his head. He didn't blink 'cause he was sniffing some female. That's kind of an extreme, um, situation. But it happens.

It happens. I've met some drivey Labs like that. We had a Lab here for a board-and-train a couple years ago, um, that would just bark and bark and bark in his kennel. And it's just demand barking, like, let me out. I don't wanna be in here. Let's go do some stuff. What is this? I'm bored. You know, all those things, just bark, bark, bark. I had to put two e-collars on him to get him to settle down. Now I'm still in touch with them. They come to like every group class. Um, the dog's amazing.

He's come so far, I'm so proud of them. It's incredible. 'Cause he was crazy. Good, good dog, super sweet but crazy, you know, and they're an older couple and he was just dragging them around. He's big, he's strong. They were like ragdolls at the end of the leash, really. Um, the dog had a real hard time controlling his excitement. Went crazy when people were around. Dogs were around, just couldn't handle it. Um, it was, it was something. And he's just amazing now. Amazing. He's not perfect. Um, but he's amazing. And uh, we don't have to put two collars on him anymore, but his numbers are still very high in a lot of contexts, right?

So an average walk for them, they're probably in the fifties, sixties, where most dogs might be in the teens or 20.

So it just depends on the dog. And we actually urge people, if, if you're the type to get super hung up on the number, cover it up, put tape over it, cover it up, don't even look at it, get comfortable watching your dog. You'll probably learn more about them that way anyway. And you'll probably get much better with your e-collar. 'Cause we get stuck on numbers in our head and we're, you know, I'll have people, even after I tell them all this stuff in a lesson, I'll see them the next time and they'll tell me, you know, I can't get my dog to do this or that, or I have to keep telling her over and over again or we're working on it, which is my least favorite phrase, <laugh>.

And I'll say, okay, well do you know ballpark, like what your levels are? Oh, we're usually around 25. It was on a 2025. Like I've never been that high before. And it's like, okay, well your dog is telling you screw your 25 <laugh>. It's not me telling you that it's your dog, right? Because these are dogs in situations doing the stuff that I know they know. And I can take them and I can do it with them just fine. And the reason being, I'm not even looking at the level. I don't care what it is.

36:00 — Kati challenges the assumption that a yelp identifies a fixed punishment level, introducing arousal…

I'm using what works. But people, they get these numbers in their head, especially if their dog makes a noise, right? And is vocal, we're gonna talk about that too. It's like, well, I used this level once and my dog whimpered or squeaked, right? Or yelped or whatever. So then they have it in their head that that level hurts. That's punishment level and that's just not true.

So let's talk about vocalization a little bit. If your dog vocalizes, that might mean that it was really uncomfortable, right? For a split second. Okay, let's not, let's not go through a box of Kleenex here. Um, it might mean that, or it might just mean that your dog was over-aroused. So when dogs are aroused, guys, they tend to be more vocal, right? I always compare it to like an inflated balloon, and even the tiniest bit of pressure, it'll explode, okay? It doesn't mean you hurt your dog. So here's one example. I had a Lab who, um, had fairly high numbers throughout the training compared to the average dog and sometimes very high numbers.

If he was, um, distracted, you know, we did a go-home lesson with his owner. He went home, they went on a field trip to a pet store.

Most likely what happened was she was letting things slide that we wouldn't let slide. And when you do that, the arousal climbs, okay? So they go in the car, and I don't know if she made him hold a down, but she probably didn't. So in the car, he's getting excited, right? He's probably hanging his head out the window, looking through the windows, whining, pacing. What? I don't know, maybe, maybe it wasn't that bad, but it probably wasn't what we do, which is just lay down, be quiet, stay in your down, and I'll let you know when you can get up and we can get out and go do what we're gonna do.

So that was probably one opportunity. Then they get out of the car. I don't know what they did when they got out of the car. We make them immediately settle with us when they get outta the car before we do anything. But, you know, if your dog's already up and you open the door and they just come out without an invite and they're pacing around and they're air scenting and they're looking at all the people, okay, your dog's climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing. We don't do any of that. Then you go to walk into the pet store.

Dog's probably three steps ahead of her, right? Instead of working to control himself and his own arousal, staying in a heel, avoiding all the sniffing, paying attention to the handler.

So escalation, escalation, escalation. You get into the pet store, there's another dog, he's straining on the leash now. And now she goes, "Oh, he's pulling me," pushes the button. Which, by the way, is fine. There were a lot of missed opportunities there, but better late than never. However, when she did that and the level wasn't that high, I think she said it was a 23, and that's not high for this dog. He screamed, woo, why? Because he was so intensely aroused at that moment and that was the first time she had pushed the button. Um, and I can guarantee you, based on all the work I've done with this dog, that did not hurt him.

40:00 — Kati interprets a pet-store dog's vocalization as arousal and surprise rather than proof the…

It did not hurt him.

But he was so aroused and surprised and alarmed or whatever, and it all just came out, right? And it'll, um, but so in that moment, which she found very upsetting, in her mind, she was too high or she hurt him, and neither of those things were true. In fact, she may very well have been too low. So you can't go by vocalization, you have to go by the behavior you are seeing. And when I say behavior, I don't necessarily mean your dog executing a command, but your dog's body language. Like, can you tell that they feel it?

Can you tell that they care about it? Can you tell that they're prioritizing it and thinking about it? Can you tell that the arousal has come down? So whatever the situation is, are you seeing something? And what are you seeing?

Okay? But that wasn't a levels issue, that was an allowing our dog to escalate, escalate, escalate until they were so far gone that pushing the button just made them vocalize. And may or may not have gotten any <laugh>, any traction on the behavior at the time. I don't know. But if I had to guess, I would say probably not. And of course everybody's looking at her like she's evil. Um, and stuff like that is gonna happen when you're new to it, guys. So I'm not picking on her. Uh, but that is most likely what happened there, especially with that dog, because this is a dog that wouldn't make a peep on a hundred.

Um, and yeah, he's felt a hundred because he is extremely destructive, or was, so he tore apart her heated seats in her car, ripped out all the wiring, ripped up all her patio furniture. And there's only one way to stop that, which is to make it very uncomfortable to do that. But this is a guy that was so non-responsive that I wasn't sure that the hundred on that collar was even going to be enough, right? 'Cause he didn't really seem to care about it that much. But then she goes into a pet store in the scenario I described and taps that button in the twenties and <laugh> and he yelps.

Um, and it, it's not because it hurt, it's because he was just crazy aroused. Very, very stimulated. So your dog, your dog being vocal. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care or that you shouldn't take that into account. I'm just saying that that thing by itself doesn't mean anything. So yes, there are situations where we hear a dog vocalize and we go, "Oh, we're a little too high." But that's not one of them.

Alright? So I'm not saying it never matters. I'm just saying that thing by itself doesn't matter, right? It's a lot like the tail wag. Everyone thinks if a dog's wagging its tail, it's happy and friendly. That thing by itself does not mean that. So very rarely can you take one aspect of a dog or dog behavior and say, that means this, right? A hundred percent of the time. Very, very rarely. Most of the time you have to be looking at a combination of things, right? So that's true for behavior, right? Is a dog friendly? Are they hostile?

44:00 — Kati urges handlers to evaluate the dog's overall behavior rather than judging stimulation by…

Are they a threat? Are they guarding? Right? These aren't things that we can tell by looking at one single thing.

We have to look at a combination of things. And it's the same thing with your level. You can't go by, is my dog quiet? Is my dog vocal? Uh, you have to look at the dog as a whole. Like what other things are they exhibiting that will tell you if you're on the right level? Okay? But don't freak out if your dog makes a little bit of noise, guys. Um, you know, it's not, again, it's not great. It's not like the funnest part. It's not something we want, but it's just part of the training. Sometimes, sometimes you're gonna accidentally be too high and it might be a little uncomfortable for a second and that sucks.

But your dog will live. It's okay. If you move on, they'll move on, I promise you.

Um, but it may not have been too high. It may just be that your dog was overstimulated, maybe that your dog is anxious, tense. Those dogs tend to be vocal. And we get dogs in here that their baseline is like that all the time. And so they're vocal all the time. And that sucks. But if you're going to let that dictate things, you just never get there. You never get there. The hounds, the hounds tend to be very vocal <laugh>. Um, but so anyways, it's an unfortunate piece, right? It's, it's there, it happens. Um, some dogs, it happens a lot.

It doesn't necessarily mean anything. You have to look at the dog as a whole. Now if you're seeing other signs, right? If suddenly your dog is panicked and trying to run away, their tail is tucked, it's like then yes, it was probably either really scary or really uncomfortable or both, right? But just vocalizing, um, take it with a grain of salt, right? Look at the dog as a whole.

And if you're in a situation like the one I just described, like look at your whole process. 'Cause you probably missed stuff along the way, right? But there's, there are times where we want it to be really uncomfortable, right? If I punish the behavior of counter surfing, my dog gets up on the counter, yeah, he's gonna be vocal and it's going to be because it hurt. So people say, oh, it does hurt. Yeah, it hurts. That's why it works. <laugh> Okay? Like, I'm not here to lie to you about that. And I don't like it when people do.

So it doesn't always hurt immensely. Like I said, we have the whole range from like gentle tap on the shoulder to moderately annoying, to mildly uncomfortable, to extremely uncomfortable. We can do it all. And we do. And you know what? That's how you get the best results. That's how you get the best results. Because if you tie your hands to this is the level or this is the max level, well then that's the end of the road for you. That's as far as you can go. But if you can get artful enough to vary that level and do the very subtle state-of-mind work with the gentle stuff, do the patterning and the conditioning with the gentle stuff.

Work your dog through increasing levels of accountability. And you also know how to use proper punishment that's very uncomfortable for stuff you never wanna see again, you, my friend, are gonna have a very well-trained dog and a great relationship, I might add. People go, what? Yeah, that's right. You will have the best possible relationship with your dog if you can deliver to them clear boundaries and expectations that are actually consistent and predictable and communicate with them with a physical layer that they understand. And so they always know what you want and you're always able to get their attention.

And the frustration is virtually eliminated.

The haziness is eliminated, the fog is lifted, it's the best thing for you. Some of the other more advanced things we can do with the remote, like I talked about earlier, I think I touched on it, um, is helping dogs settle. Um, we can teach them to keep their head down. We're usually using very low levels for that. So that's really good for dogs that tend to be up, up, up and very excitable. Um, dogs that were reactive, aggressive, like teaching them how to keep their head down and have triggers around. Like that's super, super helpful.

Just teaching dogs how to avert their gaze and even just avoid triggers for now if that's what they need to do in order to learn to be around them in a different way. Um, that's all very subtle low-level stuff, guys.

Our numbers are usually very low, especially in the beginning, but almost always it's a tap on the shoulder, it's a reminder, it's information, it's not punishing. It's very low. So I had a customer in here the other day who trained with me a couple years ago. Their dog, um, had a really hard time with floors that were not carpeted and he is doing a lot better now. Uh, but he has some severe TV reactivity. And I showed them how to use. Now this is a guy that had, has really high numbers, right? So we were actually, I think, in the thirties for this, but that's extremely uncommon.

50:00 — Kati describes releasing stimulation when a dog looks away, then increasing levels as the…

I showed them how to use gentler levels to teach the dog to avert his gaze. So if the dog is staring at the TV or in this case, he was staring at his owner. So I just did it with him.

I was like, we're gonna teach the dog to stop staring at you. So I held the button down and every time the dog averted his gaze, I let it go, right? And as time went on, I increased that level to decrease the looking back at the owner, right? Because he'd keep doing, he'd avert his gaze and he'd look back, he'd avert his gaze, then he'd look back. But once he started to pick up the pattern, I started to increase the level a little bit. Now with most dogs, again, this is gonna be really low, right?

Single digits, teens. Um, this dog happened to be a 34, I think, at the time was the highest we ended up going for that exercise. Um, and that's really unusual. But if I told myself the maximum is 19, we just wouldn't have been able to do it. It just wouldn't have happened, right? So the dog wasn't panicked, he wasn't hurt, he wasn't vocalizing, he wasn't, um, trying to run away. He wasn't tucking his tail, he wasn't doing any of those things. And that's how I know the level was not too high. I literally turned it up until I found the level that got him to look away and reduced

going back to it. That's all that happened. The dog looked away. That's it. That's what we did, right? But so if I had a number in my head, I would not have been able to do that.

I, and I always tell people, like, I don't wanna bump into you a year from now. And you're like, well, we're working on it, right? Depending on what it is, there is some state of mind stuff you're gonna be chipping away at for a long time because of your dog's genetics and there's nothing you can do about that, guys. Um, but simple things like jumping on people. No, man, you don't, you don't have to work on that <laugh>, you just put a stop to it, right? But you could get out of your own head and stop putting so much gravity on that level.

You have the power to stop it now. And some people still choose not to. But I also say all the time, you know, the reason people tend to lose traction with this e-collar training is because they create a very gray experience for their dog. Very, very gray. So that's what happens when you just stay in this ballpark with your e-collar, right? Like it's set it and forget it, but it's not. Your dog feels the same thing all the time, right? It's like vibrate or tap on the shoulder or whatever it is, whatever level you're using, it's the same all the time, right?

53:00 — Kati warns that using similar stimulation for settling, barking, chasing, and recall creates an…

So dog needs a little help settling and you tap. Your dog barks at the door and you tap at the same level. Your dog goes after another dog. You tap at the same level. Your dog won't come when called. You tap at the same level or same level-ish, right? And so it becomes this thing that is there and your dog understands but doesn't respond to it as readily because they know it's always about the same.

And also the more excited they are, the less they're gonna care about it. And so you get into this place where you're just ringing that thing like a fucking doorbell and it's not doing you any good. And I see those people out in the wild, the people that have the e-collars that think, oh, my dog comes back when called. Right? And you hear 'em say it too. Oh, my dog, you got great recall. Then the dog gets excited and they're tapping that button and guess what? The dog's fucking ignoring them. It's all very gray and meaningless.

And then it almost starts to become random too, right? Like it's not even tied to their behavior anymore. It's just like this meaningless thing that goes off that just doesn't matter.

You don't want to create that with your dog. It is so important, guys, to have variation in a complete e-collar program where you're doing all of these things where you're doing obedience, where you're stopping unwanted behaviors, where you're teaching your dog to comply, where you're helping your dog settle. You need to be all over that dial. You can lock the number on your dial. We do not show that to people. There is no good reason to ever do that. That is the opposite of what you should do. You should be moving that dial all the time, all the time.

You've got your very subtle stuff, you've got your very high stuff and you'll have some stuff in between and that's fine. But there is no set it and forget it. That's a huge mistake. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time.