Consultation Files: Reactive Dog? Just Draw The Curtains

00:00 — Kati introduces Diamond Canine and its work in off-leash obedience and behavior modification.

Speaker 1: Hey guys, thanks for joining me today. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training, as you probably know, for off leash obedience and reliability and behavior modification. So helping people change and stop all those unwanted behaviors. Um, and, you know, that ranges from simple stuff like jumping and barking, getting into the trash to, or challenging things like reactivity, aggression, separation anxiety, and all that fun stuff. We also do puppy trainings. That's who we are and what we do, and this podcast is just our way of sharing everything with you guys.

Speaker 1: So for our newest edition of consultation files, I recently did a consultation with a nice lady who, um, is actually gonna be training a puppy with us. But, you know, she shared a lot about her previous experience that <laugh> just, it's a story that I feel like I just hear slightly different versions of it over and over and over again.

Speaker 1: And, uh, it just makes you shake your head. It's like, God, you know, you wish there was more you could do to change this reality. And the fact that so many people experience this, but I think it's news to folks, like, I don't think it's common knowledge. People don't realize how common it is, uh, for people to have this experience. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. Um, and, and this, you know, ties into if, if, if you've been listening to my stuff, you know, I often, you know, I say people should get their dog wherever they want to get their dog, but, you know, all the rage today is quote unquote rescuing dogs and, um, getting your dog from the shelter.

Speaker 1: And you know what? Great, I have no problem with that at all. So I don't want folks to think I'm saying that they, you know, it's bad to do that or you shouldn't do that.

Speaker 1: I'm not saying that at all, but I think it's way, way overrated. Um, I think more than that, there's a lot of judgment out there on folks that don't do that. I think there's, um, this idea that it's needed, it's necessary. It's like your responsibility. Like we should, people should feel obligated to do that. Um, and to be frank, like there's no real evidence to indicate that you're helping anything <laugh> by doing that. So obviously, you know, if you go to a shelter and there's a dog there that you fall in love with, there's a dog there that you feel like needs your help and you can give it a great home.

Speaker 1: Like, that's great. I'm not trying to devalue that. Um, I'm just saying the

Speaker 2: Larger problem overall

Speaker 1: That people complain about as far as like overpopulation and having too many dogs versus homes available, I don't see any evidence to indicate that

Speaker 2: Going to a shelter to get your dog actually improves that situation at all. I mean, we have made this, like I said, all the rage. It's like the super trendy thing to do.

Speaker 1: Everybody's doing it. Everyone's pressuring everyone else to doing it, to do it. And our situation isn't really any different than it was <laugh>. So, um, keep that in mind. And there, there's no real numbers out there to support it one way or the other

Speaker 2: To support

Speaker 1: It or to indicate, um, that it's not helping. Um, but, you know, I don't

Speaker 2: Personally, from my perspective, um, I don't feel like our situation has really improved. I don't feel like it's any different. So,

Speaker 1: You know, either way, getting down to the nitty gritty here,

04:00 — She calls “rescue” a loaded term because many shelters are now no-kill.

Speaker 2: It's like the word rescue

Speaker 1: Is a loaded word and it implies that you are saving an entity from an imminently dangerous situation, which most of the time just isn't the case.

Speaker 2: A lot of these shelters, first of all, are no kill shelters now. So there is no imminent danger to the dog. Second of all, most of these dogs weren't rescued from deadly situations where they were on the brink of death or at risk of imminent death

Speaker 1: Or injury. Um, they're just dogs that were given up.

Speaker 2: And so I think the word rescue is a bit much, but that's

Speaker 1: Intentional <laugh>, right? That word is intentional

Speaker 2: Because number one, it

Speaker 1: Creates a sense of urgency. And number two, it gives you a medal of honor, right? So you become this savior, this altruistic savior who's just morally and ethically

Speaker 2: Superior to everybody else. And I'm not saying if you went and you adopted your dog from a shelter, that you

Speaker 1: Necessarily feel that way. Like, I'm not saying that at all, right? But this is a trap that some folks do fall into, and this certainly is the underlying

Speaker 2: Theme of a lot

Speaker 1: Of these organizations. That is their goal is to create that mindset, is to use that tactic to put pressure on people, to entice people, to motivate people. Um, anyway, yeah, that's, that's what I'm seeing, <laugh>. And here's the thing. If, if, if we're gonna use the word rescue, which I don't think we should, I think we think we should just call everything what it is. And really what it is, is you're just buying your dog from the shelter. And again, it's fine. And if you feel like that's the right thing to do for you and you feel better about that, fine, that's great.

Speaker 1: And there's tons of great dogs in the shelter too, and there's tons of not so great dogs in the shelter, which we're gonna talk about <laugh>.

Speaker 1: So I, I believe everyone should, should be able to get their dog wherever they want. And I don't think that there should be a sense of urgency or a sense of pressure or judgment for adopting your dog, purchasing your dog from wherever you want to. But the other thing that I see with a lot of these quote unquote rescues, even our local ones here in Maine are bigger rescues. Okay? So use Google. You probably know who they are off the top of your head. Uh, what I see is they lie, well, I have a real problem with that.

Speaker 1: So the woman I was just talking to her last dog, um, so she's trying really hard to get ahead of the game and plan and do things right, which I love, uh, because her last dog was such a reactive mess and she doesn't wanna go through that again. And I don't blame her. But here's the thing, none of this was disclosed to her when she got the dog. This isn't the first story like that that I've heard.

Speaker 1: So they go out of their way to downplay or conceal the dog's issues. Sometimes they subdue the dog, they control the environment in such a way that it reduces and eliminates triggers. So you don't see the full dog and then they send you home with the dog and it's your problem. And to boot they tell you that you can't do this or that to fix the problem, right? So they set the rules for your dog. So is it really your dog, right? You paid them money for a dog and now they're telling you what you are allowed to do to deal with the problems, the problems that they went outta their way to cover up.

08:00 — She criticizes shelters for sending adopters home with problem dogs while restricting their training…

Speaker 1: And these places usually offer classes in quote unquote training. It was say quote unquote, because it's not training, it's bullshit. Um, and these folks with these dogs are often told, oh, you can't come to our classes because your dog is not cut out for it. Your dog isn't suited for it. Your dog is too dangerous, it's creating too much anxiety in your dog. Okay? So now you've charged me money for a dog that you've basically guilted me into getting because it needed to be quote unquote rescued. I'm not allowed to take advantage of your services, frankly, because they don't know how to fix your problem or don't care.

Speaker 1: Um, so I can't come to your classes. And also you're gonna tell me that I can't deal with the problem in the way that I think would fix it. In other words, if that's using a trainer, um, that actually uses tools that communicate physically with the dog, if I actually use a trainer that uses both positive and negative consequences and everything in between, I'm not allowed to do that. 'cause then you tell me that will make it worse, but yet you are refusing to help me fix the problem. Well, isn't that just grand <laugh>? Isn't that just lovely?

Speaker 1: And so I just, I hear this story over and over and over again, you guys, and it just burns my ass because it's so unfair. And the rescue, quote, unquote, rescue, right? If you could see me or the qu quotes going, they get to walk away scot free and keep their reputation as canine saviors that are changing the world and, you know, keeping the population down and rescuing all these pups that are in danger.

Speaker 1: Um, you know, and they get this reputation as being so wonderful because they're quote unquote no kill, right? Which is also baloney in its own way. Um, because things don't pan out for these dogs, you guys, these dogs are not okay, some of them, you know, it's just that they lack structure and they lack training. Some of them are neurologically really messed up. Some of them aren't cut out for family homes. Like, there's a lot of different issues, right? Depending on the dog. Uh, but at the end of the day, things just don't pan out well for those dogs, and they get returned and they spend their life there in a cell, or they just get rehomed, rehomed rehomed until eventually like something happens.

Speaker 1: Um, because I mean, what else is gonna happen?

Speaker 1: Um, so I, I just hear this over and over again, so that, you know, that was her story, is that she says specifically that the reactivity was not disclosed to them. A lot of the dog specific issues were not disclosed to her. And, uh, of course they discovered this on their own once the dog was back home. And then they went down this long journey to try to help the dog and all this different training and ultimately couldn't do it and had to put the dog down. So, um, remind me again why I'm paying you for that <laugh>, right?

Speaker 1: I mean, so needless to say, she's getting a puppy. She's not going back to them, right? She's found a good breeder and she's getting a puppy and, and good for her. Like she doesn't wanna go down that road again. And I don't blame her.

Speaker 1: Um, but I had another client who got his dog from one of the local shelters, and she, they did not disclose her issues to him either, and her issues were serious. So they actually went to the trouble of sedating her for their meet and greets. Okay? The dog was heavily drugged, and this dog is a bull terrier mix. Um, I don't know exactly what, but she's, she's like a bull terrier, pit bull, maybe American bulldog, like that sort of build and boxer, maybe some boxer in there. She was heavily sedated and the meet and greets were handled in such a way that she was able to sort of gradually develop a familiarity with them and was pretty good with them.

13:00 — She describes a heavily sedated shelter dog whose behavior was concealed during meet-and-greets.

Speaker 1: Um, but right after they got her home, they, and they didn't know she was sedated. And then they get home. And over the course of a few days, what they start to see is a very aggressive dog. And by that time, she was pretty well integrated with them. And, and that wasn't so much an issue, but she was trying to attack everybody. Anybody that entered her line of sight, she would try to attack. They couldn't take her on walks. She would try to go after the neighbors. If she saw the neighbors, she would try to go after their pets.

Speaker 1: If she saw their pets, people couldn't come into the house, she would lose her mind.

Speaker 1: Um, and the reason he called me is because his teenage daughter was gonna be coming home from outta state. And he was very, very worried about that. Um, <laugh> and I remember, I still, this was years ago, but I still remember our phone conversation, <laugh>, because he said to me, he says, well, I've talked to a few trainers at this point and they tell me that this just can't be fixed. Like, this is just who she is and, and we're not gonna be able to fix it. It's gonna be, you know, management at best. And I said, well, that's not necessarily true.

Speaker 1: And I said, there's a lot of things you haven't tried, um, and we've had great success changing these kinds of behaviors. I said, ultimately the end result, you know, it varies from dog to dog. 'cause every dog is different and every dog's nervous system is different and they're neurologically wired a little bit different.

Speaker 1: Um, but there's a lot you haven't tried, and we have no reason to think that these aren't behaviors we can change. And he made a remark, something along the lines of, oh, I've been talking to tier one tech support. And it's like, yeah, <laugh>, yeah, but to, to get your dog somewhere where you don't like, they have an agenda, and the agenda is to look good and adopt out as many dogs as they can, especially the tough ones, right? Because those are the hardest ones. And so they're gonna put a lot of effort into getting those dogs into homes.

Speaker 1: And they do that by lying, hiding things, covering things up. They also do that by setting all kinds of rules, right? You can't have kids, you can't have neighbors, you can't have a boyfriend, you can't <laugh> all this stuff.

Speaker 1: And it's like, why not just fix the fucking problem? I feel compelled to say, fix the dog or put it down. I feel like it is wildly irresponsible to take dangerous dogs and adopt them out to unsuspecting people. <laugh>. But even, even if you didn't do that, even if the people were aware of the dog issues, there are so many dogs out there, you guys that haven't done the stuff, that aren't dangerous, that have never bitten anybody, and they get put down because there's not room for them. Even if it's not happening in your state or your town, it's happening all over the country, right?

Speaker 1: Because we wanna save this dog. That's an absolute nightmare. Now, in this specific case, I actually helped him, we did some private lessons and lessons. Honest to God, she's one of the starkest transformations I've ever had, and it brings tears to my eyes to this day.

17:00 — She recounts a client dog’s stark transformation after training, calling it an absolute delight.

Speaker 1: Um, she still comes into board occasionally when they go on vacation, and she has just turned into an absolute delight. I mean, it's night and day, which I never expect when we do this. I, we, I always have very realistic expectations. And you know, I usually say, if you can teach your dog to just kinda listen to you and also to mind their business, like, then we're gonna call that a win, right? Because that's a dog that's a lot less dangerous. It's a dog you have control over. Um, and a dog that can learn to just tolerate what used to be triggers, um, in their environment in a normal day to day.

Speaker 1: Situations. Situations. And if you can do that, then <laugh>, then you've got a pretty good thing going, right? Um, instead of having just like, basically an uncontrolled weapon all the time, that could go off at any moment.

Speaker 1: Um, huge, huge win. But in this dog's case, I mean, she just exceeded all of our expectations so he can have people in now she makes friends with them. And to be clear, like, I never recommend that. Like if you, once you've seen this dog, these types of dogs and their behaviors, like you can't unsee it. Um, and boy, it's expensive if your dog puts holes in somebody. So I don't recommend, you know, I never recommend this for anybody, but especially if you have a dog with a history of reactivity or aggression, I never recommend, even if your dog's doing so much better.

Speaker 1: I never, ever recommend like, just letting strangers come in and say hi to your dog. Like, touch your dog, interact with your dog. They don't need to. To me, it just seems like a silly risk to take, even if your dog is doing well, it's like there's no real benefit to it.

Speaker 1: Why, why do it? But neither here nor there. Um, everyone, you know, I always say everyone has to live with their dog the way they want to and make their own choices. Like, it's not my dog, it's their dog. Um, it's not my wallet or bank account, it's theirs. So if they feel comfortable doing it, that's their prerogative. A hundred percent. Um, but I, I have to say, she's just been amazing. People come in, they make friends with her, she lays down and and accepts belly rubs from them. She's made friends with the cats. Um, she can go for walks, she can go out in public, she can go anywhere.

Speaker 1: She's great. Um, really, really just night and day, uh, which is amazing, amazing.

Speaker 1: But if they hadn't found me, I mean, that's not to say they wouldn't have eventually found someone, right? But the trainers that will tell you the truth and and that can do this sort of thing are really pretty few and far between. If you look at trainers in general, most of them are purely positive. If you look at the trainers that work at the rescues, certainly they're purely positive. Um, and they're not even being honest about what the dog's problems were in the first place. The goal is just to adopt them out and hope for the best, right?

20:00 — Kati says rescue trainers commonly use purely positive methods and minimize behavioral problems to…

Speaker 1: And people could get hurt. I watched a video of this dog that we're talking about right now, escaping out the back door or the garage door, uh, when a delivery guy had just dropped off a package and he barely made it back into his truck. You guys barely, that would've been holes. Like there's no doubt in my mind she was a serious customer. Um, and so I just hear these stories over and over and over again. And <laugh>, one of the more recent

Speaker 2: Ones, ones,

Speaker 1: Um,

Speaker 2: Was, uh, Frankie, who was just here for board and training not that long ago. She was extremely, extremely reactive.

Speaker 1: And, uh, I don't think she came from a rescue organization, I can't remember to be honest. But, um, she had been reactive for, you know, two or three years, three years, and was just absolutely losing our mind, barking, constantly chasing bikes and dogs and people and just going crazy, driving our owners crazy and causing damage and jumping up in the windows and scratching the windows. And of course, they had also tried all kinds of, of trainers, um, and, you know, quote

Speaker 2: Unquote different protocols. And of course, they're all pretty much the same protocol, right? Which is like stuffed treats in the dog's face.

Speaker 1: And you, you know, we do that. We use food, but you can only accomplish so much with it.

Speaker 2: And people think it's the end all be all, and they're married to it and they think it's the only thing you can use and it's the only thing you should

Speaker 1: Use. Um, and that's just stupid. So naturally, the trainers that they were uh, using had this philosophy.

Speaker 2: And although they might have

Speaker 1: Taught Frankie how to do some things,

Speaker 2: They failed miserably at stopping the reactivity, which is no surprise,

Speaker 1: There's no

Speaker 2: Mystery there at all.

Speaker 1: Um, again, we hear that all the time. But so the, the owners,

Speaker 2: The reason they ended up finding me is they got very frustrated with this because they're putting in all this time and they're putting in this effort and they're following the protocols, and they're

Speaker 1: Following the instructions and they're, you know, they're paying the money <laugh>, right? They're paying the money every time the trainer comes back for another lesson. Um, but then ultimately the problem isn't getting fixed. And he looks at the trainer, the guy does, and he says, well, what about the windows? Like, 'cause she's still doing that. She's still getting up in our windows and scratching and barking and trying to chase

Speaker 2: The people, the bikes,

Speaker 1: Um, cars or,

Speaker 2: You know, whatever.

Speaker 1: And the trainer looks at him and says, oh, that, just close the curtains. Just close the curtains. Okay? So let me just say

Speaker 2: During the training process, there absolutely will be some management,

23:00 — Kati distinguishes using crates to manage a problem temporarily from using them to solve…

Speaker 1: Okay? We

Speaker 2: Use the crate a lot for situations like that,

Speaker 1: But we don't use the crate to solve the problem. We use it to help us

Speaker 2: Manage the problem until we have it fixed. So in other words, when you leave the house, like your dog should be in a crate, right? Especially if you have a dog that does that and gets into the window and likes to watch for things and bark and scratch and try to jump through the window.

Speaker 1: Um,

Speaker 2: When you're not home and you can't see it and you can't address it, you need to put your dog in the crate. Sure.

Speaker 1: That is not the same as saying, oh, the permanent solution to your problem is to just, just close your curtains. Okay? How fucking stupid is that? Because first of all, your dog can still hear and maybe even see things outside. The dog hears the bikes, the cars, the dogs, the kids still runs to the window, still digs the crap out of the window, still barks their foolish head off. It doesn't work. And even if it did work, what if I want my fucking curtains open? You telling me I can't have open curtains? Now you're telling me I can't let sun into the house because my dog is reactive.

Speaker 1: That is not a solution. And you know what? It pisses me off that these are the solutions people are being given. And let me be real clear, like if it's not someone's skillset to fix this problem, that's fine. There's lots of things. I don't have the skillset to fix so many. How much time do you have?

Speaker 1: But I don't just tell people they have to deal with it, okay? There's lots of things I don't know how to fix. Hell, I don't know how to fix a broken leg, but I'm not gonna tell you to just not walk on it. <laugh>. That's not gonna be my solution. I'm gonna tell you to go see someone that knows how to fix it. Seriously, just draw the curtains. So I hear these stories over and over and over again. Uh, and it's just nuts. So all this to say, just make sure that you know what you're getting.

Speaker 1: Don't be a victim of a quote unquote professional that has an agenda, um, that has, you know, that has an agenda, that has a dogma that they're married to ask a question. Use your brain. The answers should make sense. Make sense, right? If you go to a shelter to get the dog, meet the dog more than once, ask questions about the dog's history. And if it's, oh, you know, does better with older kids or doesn't do well with young kids, or doesn't do well with other animals, ask about that. And, and be honest with yourself about, rather or not, that's something you want.

26:00 — Kati advises prospective adopters to meet dogs repeatedly and ask specific questions about their…

Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with Sid. I don't want that burden. I don't want that responsibility. It is not your fault that that dog is there. In fact, you know whose fault it is. It's the rescue's fault, 110%. It's not your fault and it's not your obligation to fix it. It's not good on you if you decide to, but just as good on you. If you decide you don't want to, it's not your fault. You're not obligated to fix somebody else's problems because

Speaker 2: Of somebody else's lies. It is their fault. That dog is there because

Speaker 1: They tell people it can't be fixed

Speaker 2: Or it doesn't exist, or you can't use an e-collar. It'll make the dog more aggressive. You can't punish this or that because it'll make things worse. You have to use treats and bones and positive reinforcement and patience and love and blah,

Speaker 1: Blah, blah, blah. Oh, and also, you can't come to our classes 'cause your dog can't do it. That's why it's their fault.

Speaker 2: Because if it wasn't for those lies, if it wasn't for those narratives, if it wasn't for those

Speaker 1: Stupid flawed philosophies, those dogs

Speaker 2: Might have stood a chance in the home they were

Speaker 1: In in the first place, right? So the truth about

Speaker 2: Behavior and training keeps

Speaker 1: Dogs

Speaker 2: In their home. So most quote unquote

Speaker 1: Rescues are dogs that were just given to the shelter, right? They were relinquished because people

Speaker 2: Didn't know how to fix the problems they were dealing with. Most people really love their dogs. They don't wanna part with them. They don't wanna get rid of them, but they don't know what else to do 'cause they can't live with the behaviors the dog is exhibiting. And why don't they know that?

Speaker 1: Because it's hidden,

Speaker 2: That information is buried.

Speaker 1: Um,

Speaker 2: It's demonized. People that are honest about it are demonized

Speaker 1: Because they would rather

Speaker 2: Perpetuate the lies and look like saints.

Speaker 1: That's

Speaker 2: Why that dog is there.

Speaker 1: And

Speaker 2: It's not

Speaker 1: Your job to have to fix that problem,

Speaker 2: But somehow they've twisted it all around to make us all feel obligated to do that.

Speaker 1: So ask questions, right? If you're going to get a dog that's not a puppy, especially

Speaker 2: That you don't know their history, you don't know where they came from, you don't know anything about them,

Speaker 1: Take the time to get to know the dog. Ask lots of questions,

Speaker 2: Um, and make sure you actually own the dog afterwards, right? If you're not allowed to make decisions

Speaker 1: About

Speaker 2: How you raise the dog, how you train the dog,

Speaker 1: No thank you.

Speaker 2: No thank you. And frankly, I think all these problems that everyone's so worried about and concerned about as far as overpopulation and overflowing shelters, that problem would resolve itself if everybody knew the truth about behavior and training. That's what I think. You're never gonna completely stop unwanted litters guys. Like, that's, it's not gonna happen. You're always gonna have the losers out there that are just, you know, breeding the street dogs. Like that's not going away. It's not going away. Um, yeah, that's just a futile effort, but I think that's not that common anymore. It truly isn't.

Speaker 2: Um, and this whole, like having to spay, neuter your dogs, like again, like I'm not gonna get into that so much right now, but personal choice, I don't think like mandating that and like trying to demonize people that don't do that and trying to make it, you know, if you don't have that done by the time your dog's a year old, you're like some kind of criminal that hasn't helped <laugh>.

Speaker 2: It's, it's, again, it's like, it's an agenda. It's a, it's a money making scheme, right? There's a lot of money in that procedure. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm just saying all this pressure and all this demonization like that in and of itself is a red flag. When that stuff exists, you, you should question it, right? And there, there's no evidence to actually indicate that it's done anything. There's just not, there's no real numbers. Any numbers you find are made up, they're not. We don't know. But I'll tell you what, neither one of my dogs are neutered and neither one of them have impregnated any other dogs.

Speaker 2: So you're either a responsible dog owner or you're not. And spay neuter doesn't really change that. Um, so again, I'm not saying spay neuter is bad, I'm just saying there are some things that have become like the end all, be all, you know, requirement and there's no real evidence that it's even helping anything, right? You're just supposed to do it and you're not supposed to question it. Um, and I don't like that. I, I never like that <laugh>. Uh, if you haven't realized that about me, um, I question everything. And you know what? You should too.

32:00 — Kati questions whether mandatory spay-neuter policies meaningfully address overpopulation or behavior.

Speaker 2: And you should do what's right for you.

Speaker 1: And maybe you don't wanna draw your curtains and you know what? You shouldn't fucking have to. That's it for today guys. Thanks for joining me. Um, I look forward to the next one and hopefully that'll be real soon. Uh, trying to get back on schedule here and put out at least a couple of these every week. So, um, yeah, thanks for being here with me and, uh, we'll have something good for you next time.