If You Like Staying Stuck Use Threats And Bribes

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Diamond K9’s e-collar and puppy training services in Biddeford, Maine.

Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Speaker 2: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I am Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training here in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training, um, so we do eco training for off-leash obedience for behavior modification and helping people deal with things like, uh, reactivity, leash reactivity, aggression, separation anxiety, resource guarding, all sorts of stuff. Um, in addition to that, we also do puppy training. So that's who we are, that is what we do. And, um, this is our podcast, which, um, we use as a platform to reach as many people as we can and just make the truth available to them because it is so hard to find and the Internet's full of lies <laugh>.

Speaker 2: So, um, that's what we do, and we're talking about the stuff that we are talking about with our clients, our hands-on clients day in and day out.

Speaker 2: This is the stuff we're talking about. This is the meat of our conversations, uh, and the stuff that they find helpful. So hopefully some of you find this helpful as well. Um, and today I thought we would talk about a super, super, super is that enough supers common problem in dog training. Um, and when I say problem, what I really mean is a mistake. Um, so in we all do it, even I'm guilty of it from time to time. Um, but it's really, really common for people to make the mistake of not using proper consequences to change their dog's behavior.

Speaker 2: Whether it's behavior you wanna increase or decrease. This is a recurring problem that we see all the time, but especially when it comes to behaviors that we want to eliminate.

Speaker 2: So people are really good at just feeding their dog treats. <laugh> people are great at that. They don't generally need my help with that. Um, they're very, very good at it. And most dogs, when I meet them, they've already had a ton of experience just having food shoved down their throat constantly <laugh>. So, um, not what most people need when they come to, to see us. Um, but the way that you do it, your timing and whether or not you use proper markers can actually affect whether or not the dog actually knows what that reward is for whether or not the brain actually connects that reward to the thing they did.

03:00 — Timing and markers determine whether dogs connect rewards or corrections to the behavior that…

Speaker 2: So a lot of times people do need help with that, um, because yeah, they're just shoving food in their dog's face constantly, but it's not actually that effective at increasing the specific behavior they wanna increase because the brain's not attaching it to the behavior they did.

Speaker 2: So learning how to properly mark behavior is a big part of that. But what we see when it comes to, um, the opposite side of the coin, when we have behaviors we want to eliminate, um, people need a lot of help with that because there's so, so little information out there about it, and it's like nobody will tell you how to do it. You're just on your own <laugh>. No one's gonna tell you what to do. No one's gonna tell you the truth. Um, a lot of people don't know they're ignorant. A lot of trainers don't know, and they're ignorant, but a lot, a lot of them just, they're just never gonna admit it.

Speaker 2: They're never gonna say it out loud and it pisses them off to no end. That we say it out loud and there are other people out there saying it out loud too.

Speaker 2: Um, and we should support them because, um, people need the truth or they stay stuck and their dogs stay stuck and people get hurt, dogs get put down. Um, that's what happens when we don't make the truth available or we try to warp the truth to be something else that feels better, which seems to be, uh, the way <laugh> the way we do things today, quite honestly. So, but not us, not around here. Um, and so when we're talking about eliminating behaviors, now it gets a little hazy, a little blurry in the sense that, okay, number one, you have unwanted behaviors, which are behaviors you just wanna put to bed for good, right?

Speaker 2: Things like counter surfing, eating out of the cat box, <laugh>, right? Nibbling on other dogs, dog poop or even their own dog poop. Like any dog poop is bad. Don't, we don't want our dogs eating dog poop at all.

Speaker 2: So, um, you know, resource guarding, um, just anything excessive barking, anything you can think of that like you wanna put to bed forever, like that's an unwanted behavior. But in, in addition to that, you also have things like breaking place and that's a little bit different, right? Or breaking it down, like getting up early before you release them. Um, it is and it isn't. So it depends on where you are in the process. So I just wanna clarify that real quick before we talk more about this. Um, your dog needs to have the actual training to know what's expected and to have the rehearsal and to have the consistent feedback before you start treating, breaking a command, like an unwanted behavior.

06:00 — Dogs need training, rehearsal, and consistent feedback before owners correct command-breaking.

Speaker 2: Um, but eventually you do need to do that. And that's actually the key piece that we are covering in our follow-up sessions with our board and trained customers.

Speaker 2: So people send their dogs to us, they board here, they train here, they go home, they have all kinds of new skills. We spend hours with the, the people covering everything hands-on to show them what to do. Um, but then they go home, they let the dust settle, and we want them to come back a few weeks later. And the reason we want them to come back is 'cause we want to first of all make sure things are going well. Um, and that, you know, if there's anything they need help with, we can give them help with that.

Speaker 2: But almost everybody needs that final push on finalizing their training because once the dog really understands what's expected, it is important to treat non-compliance just like any other unwanted behavior. Otherwise, it never truly becomes reliable. And if we're not gonna make it truly reliable, then really like what are we even doing <laugh>?

Speaker 2: Like, you know what I mean? Um, so I suppose it's a spectrum, right? And you can, you can kind of take it as far as you want. You can take it all the way to you do what I ask the first time I ask you to do it. And you never get up early. You never break the command early. And it doesn't matter what environment we're in, doesn't matter how busy it is or how hard it is or how scared you are, like you can do that. Um, or you, you know, I think most people land somewhere in the middle where they're teaching their dog, Hey, I want you to, to do these things the first time I ask you to do them.

Speaker 2: I don't want you to get up until you're released. But they don't go out of their way to make it as hard as humanly possible.

Speaker 2: And that's okay. Like, there's no law that says you have to do that, but you can, you can take it as far as you want to. The problem is people will stay away at the other end of the spectrum where it's like, well, you know, as long as you lay down the third or fourth time, I ask and well, you know, if you get up, there's a correction, but it's so low that you absolutely don't fricking care about it at all and you're just gonna do it again in 10 minutes. Um, and we don't want people staying there, right?

Speaker 2: We want people to, at a minimum get their dog's behavior to a point where it's pretty reliable, even in distracting environments, right? I think at a minimum, like that's what what we want. And if they take it further, great. I mean, if they follow our instructions with most dogs, not all dogs, because every dog is different and has different capabilities, but most dogs can become extremely reliable in any environment.

09:00 — Kati says most dogs can become reliable in any environment when owners follow consistent…

Speaker 2: Um, it's just, you gotta follow the instructions <laugh>. And that's what we're gonna talk about today is, well, what are the instructions? Um, here they are. So, but I, I wanted to just point out that when it comes to obedience commands, you can't just jump to this stage. Your dog has to have the training, right? So for instance, you could punish me for not speaking Greek, and I'm still not gonna speak Greek. That's because I don't know how, okay? I haven't had the training. And so it doesn't matter what level of punishment you use, I'm not gonna do it because I don't know how.

Speaker 2: So when we're talking about making a command reliable, that's different than just stopping a bad behavior, right? There's a lot of training that needs to take place first because you're expecting your dog to do something specific. Um, but when it comes to stopping behaviors, like jumping, barking, biting, counter surfing, that's actually much, much easier.

Speaker 2: And I think that shocks people to hear that because they expect it to be the other way around. But it isn't <laugh>, it isn't, it isn't because we're not expecting our dog to do anything special or fancy when we tell them not to get into the trash, right? We're just making, getting into the trash, getting into the trash really uncomfortable so that it goes away. And that's it. It's simple. Isn't a lot of training that needs to take place, you just need to know how to do that properly. Um, and so stopping behaviors is actually usually the easier piece.

Speaker 2: Um, but today what I really wanted to focus on was that stopping unwanted behaviors, and also once your dog does have the obedience training, we're gonna put that in the same category. Once they have all the training and they understand the command, we're gonna start to treat breaking command just like any other bad behavior.

Speaker 2: And that's so critical. And that's the piece, you know, that hopefully if any of my current customers are listening to this, um, hopefully that's the piece that will help them. If anything is still messy for them, if anything is still unreliable or they feel like they're stuck in what I call the nag zone and they're nagging their dog about things that they should know, um, this is probably the piece that we're missing. And we do send people home with that information. We do tell them this when they're here. We do send them home with the go home packet that tells them this.

Speaker 2: We put out tons of content that says this, but it still just evades people and alludes people because it's, it's just unnatural. And there's so much other information out there that says otherwise. And also it's just scary. So like, let's just put that out there, right? So even our customers who have done this and been through the program and they're on board with it and they're doing a good job, but it's still scary sometimes in some respects, like turning the remote up to two, three times the level that you normally use to clean something up and polish it up, that's scary to people.

12:00 — Kati acknowledges that increasing an e-collar remote level can feel intimidating for owners.

Speaker 2: They worry about it. Nobody wants to hurt their dog, right? And that's not the goal, but it is uncomfortable. Yes, it's uncomfortable for the dog. So I'm notorious for telling people, yeah, it does hurt. That's why it works. Um, not because I wanna be mean, but I wanna be number one. I wanna be very honest and very transparent. Um, because that's what we do. Like, I don't even have any interest in doing this. If I can't be honest and transparent about it, none. I have to go find another job. Um, the reason it works at stopping behaviors, the reason it works at motivating your dog to do things when they don't feel like doing it is because it's uncomfortable people.

Speaker 2: That's why it works. So no, it doesn't always hurt, right? Because we have a hundred levels, the first 12 of which I don't feel I can tap this thing at a three or a five and whisper to your dog.

Speaker 2: I can give them a gentle tap on the shoulder. But when we're talking about really changing behaviors permanently, things we don't like, things we want to put to bed, yeah, we're making it pretty uncomfortable. That's why it's effective <laugh>, okay? And let me tell you something, we're very good at it because we know the proper sequence and how to make sure the dog associates that consequence to its behavior, which is important because like I said a minute ago, if you're punishing a dog for something and they don't know how to do it, or they don't know what the punishment is for, their brain can't make that link, then it doesn't work.

Speaker 2: So you have to know what you're doing.

Speaker 2: Um, so, you know, just half has a throwing corrections around isn't gonna be very effective. You wanna know what the process is. But here's the thing. Let's, let's just get down to the meat of the conversation. Finally. I'm gonna stop rambling. Here's what happened. Someone has a dog. The dog likes to jump on people, okay? Guests come over, little Nelly runs up to the guests and oh, jumps up like she always does, right? And Nelly is a fictitious dog. I don't actually think I've had any <laugh> for training. The person is supposed to say no.

15:00 — A high correction for jumping can stop the behavior beyond the immediate interaction.

Speaker 2: And then if they have an eco, which all of our clients do, they're supposed to turn their e-collar up and provide a very high correction for jumping. And guess what? If you do that, the jumping stop, and I don't mean just in the moment, it stops all the time.

Speaker 2: Okay? Now, one correction might not be enough to stop it all the time because your dog needs to know what the pattern is. Oh, every time I jump, there will be a, an uncomfortable correction from that, right? And so it can take a few times, especially since they don't know, just 'cause they can't jump on me doesn't mean they can't jump on you, doesn't mean they can't jump on their owner. So sometimes it takes 3, 4, 5, 6 corrections for the dog to put together. I can't jump on anybody, right? It doesn't usually take quite that many, but it could, it also depends on how high you are.

Speaker 2: The more high you are, the higher you are on your level, the less likely the dog's gonna take the risk with other people, right? But what do most people do? What's our inclination? Oh, we wanna use the lowest possible number that will work. So we're gonna turn this thing, oh, maybe we'll try an eight, okay? And so someone comes in, dog jumps on 'em, they tap at an eight <laugh>, and what happens?

Speaker 2: Well, the next person comes in behind them and they gotta do it again. And then tomorrow they go out somewhere and they stop to talk somewhere on the road and they gotta do it again. They go to get groceries, they come back, dogs excited to see 'em, they jump on 'em and they gotta do it again, right? And it might eventually get through to the dog if like eight is enough that they're like, Hmm, I don't really like that the best. Like, it's kind of uncomfortable. It's a little annoying. Um, then yeah, maybe after a hundred times or 200 times, maybe they'll go, ah, it's not worth it.

Speaker 2: Maybe, probably not. Now, the other side of the spectrum, right, is I could go, okay, someone walks in, Nelly runs up, jumps on them, I go, no, 'cause you have to say no. The second it happens, and then I take my remote and I turn it up to a 62, right? Just whatever number you land on, but it's gotta be high. And maybe when I tap the button, I don't tap it super fast, right? I do a, a really good press, like at least, least a half a second or so, or full second,

Speaker 2: And the dog goes, oh my

Speaker 3: God,

Speaker 2: Right? But it's a split second. It's a split second of holy crap. And then guess what? The next person walks in behind them. The dog doesn't jump on them. Most likely the dog doesn't jump on the next person to come through the door, but maybe they do. And so if they do, you do it again. And now the dog goes, well, that's a pattern I don't care for. I'm not doing that anymore, right? So we can torture ourselves by going, oh my God, what level is she gonna make me turn this up to? And trying to just use the lowest possible level, you will screw yourself

18:00 — Repeating a correction when the dog jumps creates a consistent pattern the dog can…

Speaker 3: <laugh>,

Speaker 2: Right? Especially with behaviors that you want to stick when you're not around, like counter surfing, eating the cat food, things like that. If you want things to stick when you're not around, it's really important to use a level that is so high. The dog says, you know what? It just isn't worth it to keep testing it. And you know, the analogy we, the thing we always compare this to is the underground fences because they're very, very hot. They're much hotter than these collars we're using. Um, and dogs don't generally test them. Yes, there are dogs out there that do, and some of them are the dog's personality and some of them are training issues.

Speaker 2: Um, but for the most part, it's just so uncomfortable to go through that barrier that they don't test it anymore, guys. Like, that's how this works. But if you're gonna use a level that's like barely enough, your dog is gonna test that again. Of course they're why wouldn't they? So another analogy I compare it to is if you, if you go to a vending machine, right, that steals a buck, you might try it again, but if it steals 50 bucks, you're not going to, right? There aren't too many vending machines that have $50 items in them.

Speaker 2: But let's just say <laugh>, okay? That's not a vending, it's not worth it. It is not worth it to take that risk again, unless you're like the richest person in the world, <laugh>.

Speaker 2: Um, but even then, that would be pretty stupid. So there's that. But you know what, we still haven't actually gotten to the point in this podcast episode. So let me get to the point which I'm terrible at, if you haven't noticed. Um, here's the point. Here's what bribes and threats look like, particularly threats. Someone's dog breaks place, okay? Let's say they have a guest come over. They, they come in through the door, their dog, well, there goes Nelly again. Nelly breaks her place command, she gets off the place caught 'cause someone's coming in, the person says no.

Speaker 2: And then the dog goes, oh crap. And flies back to their place cot and that's it. The person never corrects their dog for getting off. So what just happened there? I will tell you what just happened there. The dog broke place and got away with it. So only humans can complicate this stuff. The dog won't complicate it. So the dogs just found a loophole. The dogs found an exception. The dog has found a workaround, a thing they can do and get away with. And eventually it might work out for them completely and maybe they won't even have to get back on, right?

Speaker 2: But so they can get off there all day long. It doesn't matter as long as they go back when they hear the word no, everything is cool, right? 'cause that's the pattern we're giving them. Or people will say no, and they'll just pick up the remote, right? And they'll show it to the dog. Look at the remote, look at it.

Speaker 2: You know, the power I have with the remote <laugh>. And naturally the dog goes, oh my God, right back to the place cot. But the problem is, guys, that is not a consequence. Now, I'm not telling people they have to provide the consequence to be mean or because I like it when people correct their dogs, or I think it's fun. That's not it. I'm trying to help you here. If you just show your remote to the dog, number one, we don't want our dogs to be afraid of the remote, okay? So there's that. This is our communication tool.

Speaker 2: This means freedom. This means fun.

Speaker 2: This means you get to be included and go places with me. I don't want your remote to be a threat, but more than that, threats might work. Listen, listen closely, okay? Write this down. Get out your notebook, write this, write this one down. <laugh> threats might work in the moment, but they're not changing anything long term. Okay? I'm gonna say that again. Threats might work in the moment, but you're not changing anything long. And what I mean by that is you'll have to make that threat again. When your dog pla breaks place an hour from now, tonight, tomorrow, the next day, next week, the next time someone comes in.

23:00 — Showing the remote may stop behavior temporarily, but it does not create lasting change.

Speaker 2: Is that what you want? Is that good enough for you? Because I think that's stupid. <laugh>. It's stupid. Number one, because it's so easy to fix. And number two, because what good is it? Like what good is any of this training? If you don't then require it seriously, what good is it? If it's all optional anyway? Why bother? Why bother?

Speaker 2: So here's how you fix this. Your dog knows the command very well. They've had the rehearsal, they've had the training, okay? Certainly any of my customers that have been through my programs, this is the case. The dog breaks place. You say no, the moment the dog breaks place, and you don't have to be mad, but you have to mark it for them with whatever your punishment marker is. It's usually no, we use the word no. Then you take your remote, you turn it up way higher than whatever it is you're normally on, and you give your dog a good solid correction.

Speaker 2: Then if they don't go back by themselves, go give 'em some help. Sometimes after a correction, dogs will panic a little bit. They'll forget what they're supposed to be doing, so go help 'em put 'em back on. No big deal, okay? You're not looking for it to look good in the moment. And I think that's why threats get so much play, because it looks good in the moment, feels good in the moment, but it's not really doing anything. You're not making any real change. You're not curing the problem. It's a bandaid in the moment. Okay?

Speaker 2: So this can feel worse and look messier when you're providing a real consequence. But it cures your problem, guys. Your dog isn't gonna do that next time.

Speaker 2: And that's what we want for our customers and for our dogs. We want the behaviors to be reliable, to be trustworthy, because it keeps everybody safer, it keeps everybody saner, and it enables you to have a con level of control over your dog that you can involve them in things. You don't have to lock them up in the kennel. You don't have to get the dog bite on their record. You don't have to leave them at home when you go out on a trip because you have control of your dog. And that's what we want for people.

Speaker 2: Um, so no threats, right? Because your dog, that's the, they will learn whatever pattern you lay out for them. And unfortunately, sometimes people go home and they lay out a different pattern than what we've pulled them to, and they don't really fully realize it because it is a lot of information to take in. And so again, we do these follow up appointments and we're telling people, this is how you cure that. This is how you send the memo home. This is how you clean that up. This is how you now make all these behaviors your dog has learned and all these things you've learned to do with them.

Speaker 2: This is what you do to polish that up and seal the deal and make it truly reliable.

Speaker 2: So unfortunately, the pattern and the people will tell us what they think they're doing, but the dog will tell us what they're really doing because dogs don't have all this mental stuff going on up in their head, right? They just see the pattern and respond accordingly. And that's it. And it's a thing of beauty. The people take it and they fucking overcomplicate it all to hell. They're like, oh, but this, but that, but this, but that. But she's nervous. But she's, you know, excited. She's overstimulated, but she went back, but she stopped doing it. But, but, but, but, but the dogs are just like, this is what happens.

Speaker 2: This is what I do, this is what happens. This is how I respond. And that's it. There are no exceptions. There's no blurriness, there's no bending the rules. I there's no guilt, there's no, there's just none of that with a dog. It's just like, this is the pattern they give me. And so this is what I do and that's it. And so if you wanna get to the bottom of something, really talk to the dog, not the person. <laugh>, I guess is the moral of story here. Um, but you know, because people think they're doing the right thing

Speaker 2: And it makes sense. Like I can still put myself into that head space where I get it. Like I get where they're coming from. I know what they're saying. So here's another great example. I ask a dog to lay down, right? I say down, the dog doesn't do it. Now, assuming that they know what down means, I give them a correction before I repeat my command, or when I repeat my command. Now every other human on the face of the earth says, well, don't you give him a second chance to that. I bury my hand in my, bury my face in my hands, and I sigh and I shake my head.

29:00 — Repeating commands teaches dogs that the first instruction carries no expectation or consequence.

Speaker 2: <laugh>, no, I'm just kidding. But I, i, I say no, I, I don't give them a second chance because what is that really aside from a free pass? Because that's all it is, guys. It's just a free pass, right? So think about it logically for a second. What is the pattern that you're setting up for your dog? The pattern that you're setting up for them is, I, I ask you to do something, you don't do it. And that's totally fine. So I ask you again to do it.

Speaker 2: That's it. That's the pattern. So you're literally training your dog the first time I ask you to do something. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't carry any weight, it doesn't carry any gravity. I don't mean it, I don't expect you to do anything. That's what you're teaching. That's the pattern, right? So what is the dog gonna do? They're just not gonna do it the first time because there's no fucking reason to, okay? So I'm not saying that you need to be like a militant ass and like always light your dog up like a firecracker if they don't sit the first time you tell 'em to.

Speaker 2: But it's like, you know, are you somewhere really noisy where your dog can't hear you? Or is your dog just flipping you off because like, they don't really feel like doing that right now? And usually it's, it's the latter, right? It's, I just don't do things the first time because there's never a consequence if I don't. So you, again, you can, whatever pattern you want, you can teach your dog to listen the fifth time you say something. If you wanna teach your dog that, that's easy to do,

Speaker 2: Just start providing the consequences after the fifth command <laugh> and you'll be golden, right? But it doesn't make any sense to do that. That's not what we want. We want our dogs to listen to it the first time. So once they understand it and they've had lots of rehearsal, we now expect them to do it the first time we ask. It's simple. We don't do it to be mean. We do it to create reliability. And the dogs, guess what? They don't take it personally. And that's gonna be another episode because everyone is certain that it's mean or their dogs think they're mean, right?

Speaker 2: Everyone thinks that their dogs think we're mean, uh, which is just simply not the case. So this isn't about being mean, it's about how do we shape behavior to look the way we really want it to look so that we can have a reliable, trustworthy family dog. And that's it. It's that simple. And it only gets complicated if you over complicate it, you know? But the fact is, if, if you do more of this, you end up, you do more of this now you end up doing less of it later, right? Because this isn't stuff if you're doing it properly, it's not stuff you have to do over and over and over and over again.

Speaker 2: Like we talked about earlier in the episode.

Speaker 2: It's like once your dog knows the pattern, if you're following the instructions and you're, you're using your eco meaningfully or whatever corrections you're using meaningfully, they tend to mostly go away, right? Isn't that what we all want on, is to just enjoy being with our dog and have a dog that listens to us and trusts us and we can trust them. And that's what happens. But there's no getting around holding your dog accountable for stuff, guys. And threats. Threats don't work. So remember that. Rewards and punishments, that's what changes behavior. Long term threats and bribes.

Speaker 2: Do not. That's it for this one, guys. Thanks for joining me today, and I look forward to seeing you guys all on the next one. That's it for today, guys. Uh, thank you for joining me today, and I look forward to having another one for you real soon.