Using Food For Obedience vs Behavior Modification In Dog Training

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Off Leash and Unfiltered and asks listeners to subscribe.

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everyone, thanks for being here today on this fabulous Friday. Uh, at least it comes out on a Friday. Who knows if you're listening on a Friday, I guess. Um, beautiful weather out today, feeling pretty good, even though Dunkin' Donuts screwed up my coffee.

They've been doing that lately. Uh, you know, and it's funny because the Dunkin' by my house, it's like it's always the same girl working there, and she's fantastic. She does a great job. Um, and they never get my order wrong, but the last couple times I've been there, it's just been all sorts of messed up.

And you know, today the biggest problem was I ordered a large 'cause I needed a fricking large today, and they gave me a medium. They also tried to gimme whole milk, which I don't do <laugh>, but anyway, um, I really needed a large, so I wasn't gonna say anything. And then I was like, God, I really, I need a large, but in the end, I think what they ended up doing was just pouring that medium in a large cup and adding some more almond milk to it. And so it's not really getting the job done <laugh>, so I'm probably gonna need another one.

Um, but that's my sad story for the day. Other than that, things are great. So let's jump in. We're gonna talk about when to use food today. And I, I don't know, I mean, we certainly talk about like using food and like it comes up in, uh, you know, in the material when I'm, when I'm doing these. But we haven't really done an episode focused on this. And I think this is a really obviously, um, critical topic, right? Because when we're talking about training, we're talking about increasing and decreasing behaviors through consequences. And obviously the most common thing people do is use food.

And so let's talk all about that.

Let's start by saying if you are going to train a dog, I don't care how old the dog is, what breed the dog is, how old the dog is, I don't—did I already say that? I think I already said that. <laugh>, how big or small the dog is, um, how good or bad the dog is, none of that matters. I'm not gonna say none of it matters, but in terms of this, your dog, the dog you're training needs to be motivated. Period, end of story. You will never achieve reliable behavior if they are not motivated.

So this isn't optional. And this is why dog training is so heavily dependent on the dog and the dog's preferences and the dog's genetic makeup because you don't get to dictate what the dog values. There is nothing you can—that's not true. I like to be precise in my speech. That's not a hundred percent true. You can affect what motivates the dog to a degree, right? So in other words, a hungry dog might be motivated for food, but a full dog might not be, right? So to an extent, you do have some influence on these factors, but not entirely, right?

04:00 — Kati rejects starving dogs into food motivation as impractical and inhumane.

So some dogs do not care about food.

Now that's also not a hundred percent true, right? Because every dog is actually physically dependent on food to survive. However, their food drive might be so low that they aren't motivated to earn food until they are starving. So obviously it's not practical or humane in those cases to be so adamant we're gonna use food as the motivator that we deprive the dog of food until they are food driven. Now, you can build food drive that way, right? Like you can maybe skip a meal and then use that meal for training later, or make meals a little bit smaller.

And we will do that with dogs that aren't super food driven. They're like, they have low to moderate food drive, like we can increase their food drive by just cutting back, right? And the fact is dogs can actually go several days without food with no trouble.

But we don't do that for the sake of training. We, we don't do that. Okay? Um, there are some protocols, I don't wanna get too deep in the weeds here, but there are some protocols if you have a dog, um, with some aggression, some like severe leash reactivity issues, um, some trainers will use that protocol where the only way the dog eats is when they're passing another dog, right? But dogs are so, so highly reactive that they're, they're not gonna pay any attention to the food at first. And it could be days, it could be 3, 4, 5 days before they decide I'd rather eat the food than react to the dog.

Um, and that's a perfectly fine strategy, but we don't do it. Number one, because it takes so long. And number two, because almost nobody's going to actually stick to that, right? They're gonna feed their dog at other times because we feel so bad that they're going so long without food. But I think in that, in that case, and we don't do it, so there's no point in me even really talking about it. But I think it's interesting. Um, it's an interesting protocol. But the fact is, I know from working with humans, right? 'Cause my job isn't really just dogs, it's humans.

Um, they're not gonna do that. <laugh> No, nobody's gonna do that, right? Very few people are actually going to have the gall to stick with that protocol. They're gonna be feeding the dog in between, at least offering treats and stuff. And then the dog is not going to be motivated to choose the food over reacting to the dog. Um, so, you know, just wouldn't work in that case. But at any rate, it's an interesting thing some trainers do, uh, with severe reactivity. We don't do it, but we don't do it mostly because it's not practical and, uh, we don't do it in other areas of training because it's just not necessary.

08:00 — Kati presents e-collar training as an alternative for dogs with little interest in food.

We can just give the dog their meals and we can motivate them in other ways, like with the e-collar. So I think that's a phenomenal point to start with is, um, if you have a dog that isn't super food driven, the e-collar just makes it not a problem. That is one of the most amazing things about this tool that people don't talk about. And it's funny because you'd be surprised how many dogs are not food motivated. So people think their dog is really weird, really strange. Sometimes he'll turn his nose up at his food.

He doesn't finish his food. Um, he won't work for food, he doesn't care about treats. Like, what's wrong with my dog? Nothing's wrong with your dog. It's normal.

Lots and lots and lots of dogs are not highly food driven. They don't need a lot of food. Um, they're what we would call in the horse world easy keepers, <laugh>, right? They get fat on air. Um, and you know, most of the time, like they're eating a lot as puppies and then they get older and they just don't need it anymore. But we keep trying to feed it to them and they just don't need it. So sometimes they eat it, sometimes they don't. Um, and certainly if you're training and you're asking 'em to do things they don't feel like doing, they're not gonna give a shit that you have.

Food just doesn't matter to them. And that's normal. There's nothing wrong with your dog. Um, but the e-collar just kind of fixes all of that. Um, and I think that's a great point to talk about too before we dive into when and how to use food. Um, just a real quick point on the e-collar while we're talking about this.

One of the most amazing things to me about this tool is that it can be used both to increase and decrease behaviors. And there aren't too many things that you can really, there aren't too many tools that you can say that about. Um, because we can use the e-collar in so, so, so many ways and it gives us so much versatility in terms of level and intensity. Um, so I can have it on very, very, very low and like whisper level, tap on the shoulder level. I can use it at an annoying level, an irritating level, at a mildly uncomfortable level.

Um, I can use it at a very uncomfortable level. I can use it at a holy shit level, right? So I have all that versatility available to me when I'm training. And so I might have it down super, super low when I'm first teaching the dog how to do something, and then I might turn it up to something annoying when we start to move into the non-compliance phase.

And as they get some rehearsal, then I might turn it up to something mildly uncomfortable, right? But only when they're not listening. And then from there, we might go to very uncomfortable when they're not listening, right? Once they're very well rehearsed. Um, and so it starts out as technically escape training, right? But there's nothing to really try to escape from because it's so gentle. It's not uncomfortable at all. Um, but we just teach them how to shut it off and then we graduate to, um, like more intense escape training where it is a little uncomfortable, um, but only if you're not listening, right?

And then it's more corrective. And so it starts out as a way to just teach and communicate what's happening and how it's tied to their behavior. And then we graduate to what, well, you know, that might be considered negative reinforcement, right?

12:00 — Kati explains using e-collars to increase or decrease behavior while still incorporating food rewards.

I don't like to use those terms because when you actually think about them, they don't make any sense <laugh>. So, and I don't wanna, again, I don't wanna get too much into the weeds here, um, but you can use it as negative reinforcement to increase behaviors and you can use it as a positive punishment to decrease behaviors, right? And, and everything in between and all the overlap and all the gobbledygook. And maybe we'll get into that some other day. Um, but the term isn't important. The point is we can use it to motivate a dog to do things and we can use it to motivate a dog not to do things.

And I think that's what makes it such an amazing, amazing tool. That's at least one of the things that makes it such an amazing tool. But today we're not here to talk about that.

We're here to talk about food. So now that we're like a half an hour into this episode, let's, let me get to the fucking point, right? Um, food. So first and foremost, you know how much I love the e-collar. Um, even when we're using the e-collar, we're still using food. So I feel like some people think you have to pick, you have to choose, you have to choose a method, right? You have choose some weird fancy protocol with some strange acronym. What's your method gonna be? What strategy are you using? How are you rewarding your dog?

What's your ch—what's your chosen style? And it's like, forget all of that, guys.

Forget it all. It doesn't matter. What matters is that you are able to hone in on what motivates the dog to do things and not to do things. And as long as you stay stuck in, well, we're gonna try this one thing, and that's all we're gonna do, then you're just going to get whatever you get and it's not gonna change, right? And maybe it'll work and maybe it won't. But, so if you have a dog who's extremely motivated by food, you have a huge advantage over so many other dog owners and you're foolish not to use that.

However, you do not want to become dependent on that. Ultimately, in the end, you need your dog to listen to you whether there is food or not. But I think a lot of people wanna start there. And you can't.

You have to teach your dogs all the things you want, right? That means you have to tie words to behaviors and you, you need to rehearse them in different environments. And there is no faster way to increase a behavior than to tie it to a consequence that your dog is motivated to earn. So if you have a dog that loves food, please use that to your advantage for now. Okay, now I'm talking about mostly obedience commands. All right? So you're teaching your dog to sit, you're teaching your dog to lay down, you're teaching your dog to go to place.

If they are motivated for food, use it.

Okay, again, for now. So let's break that down a little bit. If your dog is so motivated for food, you can use their kibble, do it. But if your dog is kind of like, oh, I could take it or leave it, I like it, but like I'm not that into it. For instance, if you have to make kissing noises and like smack your dog to get them to turn around and take the food, they're not motivated for that food. So some people will drop their dog off here and tell me they're food motivated. They're not. Like, the dog will take the food, but I almost have to do a little song and dance to get them to turn around and like take it because they're just not actually that interested, right?

16:00 — Kati distinguishes dogs that briefly accept food from dogs strongly motivated to earn it.

Or they'll be interested for a couple minutes and then they lose interest. That's not a food-motivated dog.

A dog I would call food motivated, food driven, is a dog that doesn't even stop to chew their food. <laugh>, right? It just seems like they never get full, they never stop to chew it. Um, that's a food-driven dog. And of course there's lots of room there in between, but it's just funny to me that some people will say their their dog is food motivated and they're really not that food motivated, which explains why they might have been having a little bit of trouble, right? Because they think in their mind their dog is like motivated and they're getting rewarded for doing these things, but they're not really because they're just not really that into it.

It's not that important to them. Um, so use food to build up your obedience commands. Absolutely. Okay? Now if your dog is into their kibble, use it. If they're not, use something else but cut it up really small.

Okay? So we use dried liver a lot of the time and most dogs really, really like that. Um, but they come in fairly large chunks. People, you're gonna be doing a lot of reps. Number one, you don't want your dog to get full or sick of the reward, right? So you don't wanna feed them big chunks. But also when you're feeding something like liver, it's very rich. Um, dogs can and will get diarrhea if you feed them too much, especially if they're not accustomed to eating it. So cut it up tiny. Most people when I say that, they still cut it up and it's like huge.

When I say tiny, I mean like pinky nail size, okay? Very, very small pieces. It's higher value, but it is small. So do that. Use whatever your dog is excited to earn. Just very, very small pieces. And it might not be, it might be hot dogs, it might be cheese, it might be bacon, it might be chicken, it doesn't matter. Find something that excites and motivates your dog, right? And they might not care about anything. I get dogs in here that I could use bacon, I could use raw chicken. It wouldn't matter. They don't want it.

They don't care.

There's still hope for you if you have that dog. But today this episode is about food <laugh>. So find what the thing is that your dog likes and use it. When do you move away from food? Well, that's a good question. Once your dog has learned a word, right? Now, just to give you a point of reference, and we're dog trainers, right? So we're very efficient. We're very, so don't necessarily hold yourself to the standard, but how long does it take generally for a dog to learn a word, a command? Most dogs will learn what a word means.

They won't be experts at it, but they'll be getting to a point where they can do the command with very little help in one lesson, okay? That might be anywhere from 20 to 50 reps.

20:00 — Dogs may need refresher repetitions during their second lesson, and learning speed varies.

And then usually when we bring them back out for their second lesson, it looks like they've forgotten. They might need a few reps to re-jog their memory, okay? With some dogs, it's not that fast. With some dogs, it's faster. It's like a handful of reps and it seems like they've known it their whole life, okay? But most dogs are right around the one lesson to get them doing pretty well. And we don't actually see a huge variation in that. So everybody wants to think that there are like some breeds that are so smart and some breeds that are so dumb.

But what we find is that they're all pretty much the same. So they have their specialties, right? That's the point in the breed, right? And you don't really have to teach them to do those things because they were born with the innate ability to do those things. Like pointers pointing, um, you know, rat dogs, ratting, bird dogs, getting excited about birds, um, herding dogs, herding. Like those are things they were born to do. You don't generally have to teach them. As far as teaching commands.

Most dogs are right in the same ballpark. Yes, there's some variation, but it's not a ton, right? We might have a dog that takes two lessons instead of one. We're not gonna have, you know, a dog that takes five days to learn a command, at least not because of his breed. So we've had some dogs that were that difficult. Um, but generally speaking, it's more of a behavioral thing. It's more of an "I'm nervous" or "I'm pushy and I don't want to." It's not that they're not learning what it means, it's just that they're too uncomfortable to do it or they just don't want to do it, right?

So we see that. But as far as the ability to learn and connect, we don't see a ton of variation. But what we do see is that if you have something the dog is motivated to earn, it goes way fucking faster, guys. Way faster. So you know, usually I'm talking about trainers that are refusing to use punishment, refusing to use correction, and making up all this crap about how it's bad. Today you're gonna hear me talk about the opposite end of the spectrum, which is pretty rare, but I'm sure they're out there, trainers that say you should never use food.

And I can actually think of a couple that usually don't use food. Um, and I can see it not being a favorite, but to just say we're not gonna use food, that is so stupid because you're losing so much efficacy, you're losing so much efficiency, not using it. Even if you just use it briefly to build something up, um, it can be a game changer. It can really, really help increase frequency and intensity in things that you like that you are trying to build up. But the dog has to be motivated for it. If they're not hungry, if they're not into it, if it's too low value, if they're too full, it won't work, right?

23:00 — Kati suggests using breakfast during training or offering higher-value rewards before feeding breakfast.

So if you're using food to train your dog, don't feed them breakfast and then go train.

Use their breakfast for the training. Or if they're not that into kibble, use something higher value and then feed them their breakfast after training. Maybe cut back a little bit on the size of their meals for a day or two, just a little bit, right? So they're, when they get to the end, maybe they're a little bit like, "I'm looking forward to that next training lesson." Maybe the food's a little bit more exciting. But anyway, love the show? Well, I have great news. We are offering an inexpensive subscription to our new premium content. This is content that isn't available to the general public.

We make it just for our subscribers. We're gonna cover a variety of new topics in these episodes and I think it's gonna be a ton of fun. So you can jump right down into the show notes to get that website address and then skip over there and sign up for this premium content.

Just wanted to take a second to let you guys know about that. Thank you so much for your support. And now on with the show. When do you move away from food? So you're teaching your dog a command. Once they start to really get the hang of it, that doesn't mean it's time to just stop giving food, okay? So like I said, most dogs learn a command here in about one lesson, but we're gonna come out and do probably at least one more lesson where we're giving food for basically every repetition if, if they're into food, okay?

So what that translates to at home, since you're not a dog trainer and maybe you're not quite as efficient, maybe you are, I don't know, I'm not there. But what we do in one lesson might take someone else at home 2, 3, 4 lessons, right? But when you feel like, oh, my dog's really getting it, I can see him doing it, I don't need to give him a lot of help, um, then he is getting it, right? So do a little bit more, continue to feed and then move to an intermittent feeding schedule. Meaning every two or three reps there's food.

And do that for a little while. If you go right from food, every rep, food, every rep to no more food 'cause I can see you know it, it's okay, you can do that. There's no wrong way to train, right? But we're talking about how to be the most effective and the most efficient and get the best results and work with nature and harness the drives instead of getting all the resistance and working against it and fighting with the dog.

Like that's not the best <laugh>, right? It's not the funnest for you. It's not the funnest for the dog. It doesn't yield the most, um, it doesn't facilitate the best results. So move to an intermittent feeding schedule because if you shut it off all at once, most dogs are gonna go, well, fuck this, and they're not gonna do it anymore. And sure you could just start correcting them for that, right? And in some cases that might be what you have to do. But if you don't have to, it wouldn't be my first choice because the dog isn't going to be as motivated, as engaged.

So the more you can get buy-in from the dog, the faster things are going to develop.

So you gotta remember you're playing the long game here. So some people, and again, we're kind of talking opposite of what we are normally talking about, right? So normally I'm talking about how good people are at shoving food down their dog's throat constantly and keeping them in kindergarten and rewarding them forever for their whole life. And it's like, today we're talking about the opposite. We do get folks that are so frustrated by the time they get here, they don't wanna use food. It's what they've been doing already for six months, a year, two years. They come here, you wanna be done with food, I get it.

28:00 — Kati's program pairs low-level e-collar training with food while establishing command understanding.

But we're stupid if we don't use it to build up what we wanna build up. And so when you start a program here, the first thing we have to do is make sure your dog knows these words, knows these behaviors, and build them up. And if your dog likes food, we're going to use food for now. Okay? And once I can see that they know it, we're gonna move to an intermittent feeding schedule. And usually we're already using the e-collar 'cause we're doing both e-collars on very low levels and we're using tons of food. Then we move to e-collars on low levels still, but we're kind of using intermittent food.

And then we'll start increasing the accountability with the e-collar, right? Based on what the dog seems to know. But we're still using intermittent food. Every two or three reps, there's food, we mix it up, right? And that will actually serve to keep a lot of dogs more engaged. It's almost the same concept as gambling. So it becomes kind of a game for the dog that they're engaged with and want to play because they don't know what's gonna happen, but they know there's a chance they might win, right? So your training sessions become scratch tickets for the dog.

This is the period where things really start to cement and we start to move away from food, but we're still using it and we start to increase accountability. This stuff's all overlapping at the same time. And then you might go through a phase where you reduce food even more, but it's still there. And for us here in a board-and-train, board-and-trains are short. So these phases are very short. But for you at home, they might be a little longer. And that's okay. And then ultimately we move to, there's just accountability. I'm not going to pay you to do the stuff anymore 'cause you know it, right?

That doesn't mean I can't use a treat now and then just for fun, just for kicks, as a reward, job well done. But I'm not using it every time I ask you to do something. There is this philosophy out there that you have to pay your dog every time you ask them for anything. No, you don't. No, you don't. It's okay to teach your dog things and then just expect them. Absolutely. And you can still give a treat now and then when you want to, that's fine. But you don't have to. Your dog should listen to you either way and the treats will be given on your terms when you feel like it.

31:00 — Kati suggests chaining familiar commands together rather than treating every individual sit.

And usually once they know all this stuff, you make them work a little bit harder for it, right? You don't have to give them a treat every time you ask them to sit. Chain some things together, make it harder.

And what about praise and affection and approval? That's a reward. You don't have to feed your dog every time you ask him to do something. But in the beginning, it is a great way to motivate your dog and really cement things, especially if there are things your dog does on their own, which is a great segue into free shaping. So if I know that I'm going to be teaching my dog to lay down soon, right? I'm gonna, I'm gonna teach that command, the down command, and you can use this with any command. If I see them do it naturally on their own, I might choose to mark it, feed it.

And then you're gonna see something happen. They're gonna do it again, you're gonna mark it, feed it, and then oh, they're gonna start doing it again and again and again. So if you catch your dog doing something that you really like or that you know you're going to be trying to teach in the future, if you see them do it on their own, don't pass up that opportunity. Mark it, feed it a hundred percent. Things tend to develop and come together much, much faster when it's something the dog naturally exhibits as part of their own repertoire, they do it on their own.

So ultimately obedience, we go through several stages where we start with food. Every rep, once the dog really seems to be understanding it, you know, we'll do a few lessons like that maybe, but then we move to intermittent feeding or maybe it's every few reps, and then maybe it's just like every five to 10 reps, and then it goes away for the most part, right? And it's rare, it becomes just the occasional treat. Um, and at that point we've increased the accountability aspect. Um, right? So that kind of takes the place of food. It's like now instead of rewarded for doing, you're corrected for not doing in the end, right?

34:00 — The discussion shifts from obedience rewards to food's role in fear and other behavioral…

And so they kind of level out and then they switch places. So as one's decreasing, the other one's increasing, if that makes sense. Um, but yeah, food's a great motivator, right? But again, dog dictates what they value, then you have to pay attention to that.

Um, and that's true for everything. So, but that's for obedience. Let's talk about behavior, 'cause that's a little trickier. If you have a nervous, fearful dog, they're not gonna want food. Here's one thing you can take comfort in. If you have a nervous, fearful dog and they're actually accepting food from you in a situation where you perceive them as fearful, they're not that bad. Even if they look really bad, even if their tail is tucked, even if they have a shake or any of those things, if they're taking food, you are not in bad shape.

Your dog is not actually that fearful.

So that might piss some people off, but hopefully it makes you feel a little better if you're in that boat. Um, you're in a position to make more progress, obviously, than somebody who has a dog that won't take food in that situation. But also dogs that are truly, truly afraid, right? That are like, oh my God, it's life or death, they don't take food, guys, right? And it, it's not rational. It's kind of hard for us to wrap our mind around. But your dog, if you have a fearful dog, might be in just a normal everyday situation where there's real, no, there's no real threat of danger, but they're just fearful, right?

It's just how they're wired. There's no reason for it. It's just their genetic makeup. They're fearful, um, to them.

It's almost like someone standing there with a gun to their head or, you know, they're being chased by a grizzly bear, right? So if you had a grizzly bear after you and someone offers you a slice of pizza <laugh>, you're not gonna eat it, right? If your dog is really, truly fearful, they're probably not going to take food. That would be extremely abnormal. Um, doesn't it just, it doesn't happen, okay? So if you're in that boat, food probably isn't gonna work for you. And that's okay. There are other ways to e-collar <laugh>. However, if your dog has, you know, thresholds, if you have a nervous, fearful dog, maybe you can use food with distance, right?

37:00 — Kati acknowledges distance may allow fearful dogs to eat but questions whether owners can…

Certain distance from the trigger, maybe your dog will be into food. But I actually don't usually recommend that. And the reason being is number one, I don't usually see it do a ton of good. Number two, I think it's tricky for people to know when it's dangerous to reward. So the fact is, positive reinforcement is the most powerful and dangerous tool available to you because it increases behavior, it doesn't decrease behavior, it increases behavior. Okay?

Now behavior and state of mind are, are tied together. You listen to me, you probably know that. Or you know I say that, right? The mind and the body are not separate. They're very much wrapped together. And if you're rewarding a dog who's uncomfortable, if afraid, afraid, you might be going backwards, you might be increasing something you don't want to increase, right? Or you might just be not having an impact at all. But even that is a waste of energy, right? Not a net positive there. So I usually don't recommend it in those cases. I feel like it's not necessary to use in those cases.

Usually just neutrality, exuding confidence, drawing clear boundaries, giving clear instruction. Like that's what helps those dogs the most. But I think if food is going to be used, it's really best used by somebody who's really well versed in this type of stuff, who knows the subtleties and the nuances of what to look for, what's an improvement, what's a back step? Uh, so that we don't inadvertently nurture things we don't want to, just my opinion. If you have a dog who's reactive or aggressive, I would say it's another case where food's not my favorite. I think it can be powerful, but I think you need to be careful how you're using it.

40:00 — Kati distinguishes distracting reactive dogs with food from rewarding them after successfully passing another…

So the big mistake we see is people using food as a distraction, which is essentially using it as a bribe. Not always bad, by the way. I use food as a bribe sometimes. Maybe we'll get into that, maybe we won't because I'm gonna run out of time. But that's not how we handle reactivity. That's not gonna fix it, okay? So if you have a reactive or aggressive dog and your plan is to use food to distract them when you're walking by other dogs, I will do you a favor right now and tell you it's not going to work.

You might walk by that dog in that moment and you might successfully pass by without a reaction. So what I mean, you essentially put a blindfold on your dog, right? You just kept them from seeing the other dog because you kept their head turned. Um, so you're probably gonna have to do that forever. And you're prob—it's probably not gonna work. Sometimes it's not actually teaching the dog how to see the dog and make a different decision, right? And that's why it's so different using a bribe versus a reward. So if you have a dog that's reactive and you teach them, you successfully walk by a dog with no bad reaction and then you reward afterwards, that's better, right?

Because now we're not avoiding the issue, right? We're going through it. And then there's a reward at the end for being successful, for choosing the right behaviors, for resisting the impulses, however you wanna put it.

Instead of just, I want you to stare at this treat so you don't see what's over there. Like, that's not really success. It's a false positive there, right? It's like the dog just has blinders on so they don't see the other dog essentially. Um, not generally effective. And what you risk, if you give the dog food in those situations, you risk increasing reactivity, right? Let's say the dog does look at the other dog and starts to do what we call loading, starts to stare, starts to get excited. Maybe the ears come up, maybe the hackles come up, and then you successfully get that dog's attention back on you and you feed it.

43:00 — Kati argues that feeding after fixation and escalation can reinforce a repeating reactivity cycle.

Oh baby, you are in for some trouble. How do I know? I've been there. I had that dog. I did that protocol <laugh>. Guys, it doesn't work. And you are, essentially what they'll tell you is you're rewarding your dog paying attention to you, you're rewarding your dog for pulling their attention away from the other dog. And that sounds good, but it's wrong.

It's wrong. You're creating a cycle of see the dog, target, escalate, get food, go back to staring at the dog, escalate, get food. You're creating a cycle and you're cementing escalation most of the time. I recommend just not even using food for reactivity. I recommend keeping all energy, all very low, being very neutral. If we have a very reactive dog and we pass by a dog without a reaction, we give a very neutral good. Even though inside my head I might wanna have a fucking party and a parade for that dog, I don't. Because what that's going to do is it's going to create escalation and arousal, which then trips the dog's bad behaviors.

So you have to think of arousal as the enemy. And with any bad behavior your dog has, arousal will most likely trip it, right? It will make them more likely to misfire and make a mistake. You're not doing something kind for your dog by having a parade, by shoving food down their throat. You feel nicer. You are not, because what you're doing is you're just triggering arousal, which then in turn potentially triggers whatever the bad behaviors are that you're working on, especially reactivity. So we are very calm, we are very neutral. And if I wanna feel like I'm being nice or doing something good for my dog, okay, then later I'll go do something nice for my dog.

But you, if you have a two-dimensional view of training where you're like, you always have to have a parade, and you always have to have a really high-value reward when your dog makes good choice, especially when it's a really hard choice, which is the worst time to do it. When your dog does something successfully in a scenario where it's extremely challenging for them, they're very intense, they tend to get very aroused, they make very bad decisions. The stakes are very high. Those situations are the worst situations to provide the really high rewards. You are gonna trip the arousal, you're gonna trip the behaviors, and you're gonna go backwards.

46:00 — Kati recommends a neutral 'good' and continued movement rather than enthusiastic celebrations around triggers.

Guys, keep it neutral. Yes, you can tell your dog they did a good job.

Keep it neutral. What's that sound like? Good. That's it. Keep moving. So I don't usually recommend food in those situations. I generally don't recommend food in situations where it creates too much arousal. We've also had dogs, even with obedience training, where they're so out of their mind for the food, it makes it hard for them to even learn anything because they can't focus on anything except where's the food? Where's the food? Where's the food? Where's the food? Right? And their brain is going a million miles an hour. And in those cases with those dogs, and I'm not talking about a food that's, I'm not talking about a dog that's highly food-driven.

I'm talking about a dog that is absolutely out of their mind about food. In those situations, we tend to try to move away from it as quickly as possible. And we try, we tend to keep our energy very neutral and we're very, very careful about our sequence, right?

So the, the food is put away, it's in a pocket or a pouch, and our hand does not go near it until after we have given the marker that food will be coming. That's so important. The more crazy your dog is about food, if you are reaching for that food before it's time, you, oh man, you're not gonna get anywhere, right? So now you're taking, that's what I mean about food being so powerful. Now you're taking a tool that could be used so effectively and so efficiently to create a behavior so quickly and you can actually get nowhere because the dog is just watching your hand and your hand is going into the pocket for the food before they've done the thing they're supposed to do.

So once your hand goes in there, they know it's coming and they're just waiting for it. And they're not thinking, they're not processing, they're not executing. Slow down and keep your hands outta the food for God's sake. <laugh>, right? And have good markers. And I've done episodes on markers, we're not gonna get into that. Um, but yeah, food's very powerful. But you know, it can be used for bad just as much as for good. You can increase stuff you don't wanna increase. You can impact state of mind in a negative way. You can increase reactivity, you can increase aggression.

49:00 — Kati argues that genetics and reinforced outcomes contribute to aggression, citing people retreating after…

I would argue most aggression, most bites are absolutely the result of genetics plus positive reinforcement. So everybody wants to say their biting dog was abused or they're scared, but most of the time it's just been reinforced, right? The dog growls, we move away.

Dog bites, we move away. Kid came up, pet the dog. Dog didn't like it, they bit them. Kid went away. Okay, it works. Mailman came to the house, delivered mail. Dog, mailman went away. Aggression works. Positive reinforcement, right? But everyone's saying, oh, my dog's scared. My dog's scared. My dog must have been kicked. Do the stairs, right? And so they're feeding him, feeding him, feeding him, right? Because we pity the dog, we feel bad for the dog. We need to show the dog everything is good. And it's food, food, food, food. And all the dog is learning is again, get jacked up, get worked up, load, bark, growl, whatever it is, get food.

My husband goes into houses and he meets dogs that run up to him, bark, growl, immediately spin around and look at their owner for food.

That's not a fearful dog, guys. That is a dog that has been consistently rewarded for aggressive behavior. And now it's become a circus trick, right? It's become a task. They perform to earn food. People don't see it that way. They'll sure get pissed off if you point it out. So he usually doesn't <laugh>, but we see it all the time because everything out there tells you that, right? And it's just crap. Of course. Crap, crap, crap. So food, positive reinforcement, to be effective, your dog needs to be motivated for it. Your dog chooses what's motivating, not you.

Keep in mind it can be used to increase and build up behaviors very effectively, but you can also build up behaviors and state of mind that you don't like, that you're not going for. So you need to use some discretion. It's not always the best thing to do.

And sometimes it's not the kindest thing to do. Sometimes it's counterproductive and it can absolutely be used to increase behaviors. It can be used in a way that increases behaviors that are very dangerous, right? Because if you're focused on state of mind, and especially if you're wrong about state of mind, you might be feeding your dog thinking it's the kindest thing to do and you're turning them into a monster. So in my opinion, I think the long and short of it here is, guys, like when we're talking about behavioral stuff, not obedience, reactivity, aggression, anxiety, fearfulness to most people, unless you're really well versed.

53:00 — Kati closes by prioritizing confident instruction for behavioral problems and gradual food reduction for…

Like if you're not a dog trainer, if you haven't worked with tons and tons of dogs, don't worry about using food. Yes, it might help you in some areas, right? But unless you know exactly what those areas are and how to do it, you could be hurting yourself just as much as you're helping. Don't even worry about food.

Worry more about your energy. Worry more about exuding confidence. Worry more about giving your dog clear instruction and following through. Those are the things you need to be worried about. Stop soothing your dog. Stop reassuring your dog. Stop making up stories about your dog and why they are the way they are. Do some e-collar training, <laugh>. But when it comes to obedience, food can be a very powerful tool to build up those behaviors so long as your dog is motivated by it and it's a reward, not a bribe. And ultimately you wanna start to phase out of that and move away from it.

But not all at once. That's it, guys. That's most of my take on food. I'm sure as soon as I shut this mic off, I'm gonna think of a thousand other things I should have said. So who knows, maybe we'll end up with another episode on this, uh, topic. But for now, that's all I have to flap my gums about. So I hope you enjoyed and I'll see you next time. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail.

Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show, and I look forward to next time.