Joyce’s Journey With Her Two Dogs And What Our Clients Usually Need Help With On Their Journey

00:00 — Kati Peppe asks listeners to subscribe before introducing Joyce’s dog-training journey.

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. So we're here with the wonderful Joyce again today. And I thought we might start by letting you fill us in a little bit 'cause we didn't really get into any of this last time, but I'm kind of wondering, um, what things look like for you and your own dogs.

So like, what was, what has your journey looked like, um, with your dogs from the very beginning? Let's go back to the very beginning. Oh geez. Okay. Or whatever you think is relevant. Let's

put it that way. Yeah. So, you know, obviously why did I do training? Why did I do training? Right. Um, I had two labs and um, I really struggled with them walking. Um, they were, they became, um, progressively um, reactive. Um, one dog was more reactive than the other and then it kind of fed the second dog where they were, were reactive, um, to, first it was like squirrels. They would like yank my arm off, you know. Then it started to become dogs walking towards us and they would just bark. They weren't like aggressive, like trying to be mean to the other dog.

They just wanted to get over there. I don't know why, but, um, and then it became anything, even people without their dogs just walking. Right, right, right. Um, so beca it became very embarrassing. Um, and really hard, you know, I was hiding behind bushes and stuff like that.

So that was probably the biggest thing for me, 'cause I really wanted to walk with them. Yeah. And I wanted them out and about for their quality of life. And then the second thing was they, they barked out the window, reactive to really anything from a doorbell ringing to the oil guy or UPS, people riding their bikes, they would just bark. And, um, two of 'em, it was a lot. So, um, and I just didn't wanna deal with that. Yeah. Um, those were kind of the, the two things that really made me think, I, I need to do something different.

I don't know what I'm doing. So <laugh>. Yeah. Um, yeah. And then just normal obedience, you know, being to, and, and I actually off-leash recall was big. I wanted to go down the beach with them. Yeah. And I really liked, did you live near the beach? Yeah. And so, and they loved the water. So,

And people don't think of labs as being super reactive dogs.

Right. Everyone thinks, oh my God, your dog's so cute. Let me come up and pet it. And it was like, I was walking to like Doberman's, you know, down the street <laugh> or pit bulls with like spiked collars and they were like big roofies, you know? And it was like, no, I had these adorable labs that suck.

Well 'cause and even though they are pretty friendly, um, and social, they looked kind of ferocious sometimes, right?

Oh yeah. Really? So they would, Zoe, my chocolate lab, would just screech and people would look at me like, what is wrong? They wouldn't say anything, but they were like, what?

Cross the street and avoid that one.

They would even bark at a dog in the house barking. So a dog in the house is reacting to my me, mm-hmm <affirmative>, and my dogs coming by. And then my dogs would start wailing. Yeah. And um, I felt like, oh my God, it's a Sunday morning at 7:00 AM and I can't even walk up the street because I'm waking up the whole neighborhood. Yep.

And we hear that all the time. Like people, oh, I gotta walk my dog at 10 o'clock at night or five in the morning, like before there's anybody around.

And you know, I had the two of them and I had 'em in harnesses and um, they're not that big, but you know, I had like 120 pounds pulling me down the street. Oh,

Why didn't you see some roller skate? Yeah.

<laugh>. So it was a lot. And I was like, oh man. Yeah. Um,

04:00 — Joyce chose private lessons with Kati and later joined the training staff.

So, but then eventually you found like a fantastic trainer.

I did <laugh>. Oh my God. It was you. It was so great that I ended up coming to work here. That's right. Um, yeah. So that the, I did the private lessons. Um, I found that really good 'cause for me, I mean if I, if I would've done the board-and-train, but at the time, financially I just couldn't do it with the two dogs at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, I was by myself. My daughter just went to college so I was like, oh, I could do this. I have a lot of time.

Well,

And back then, I mean I don't do this anymore, like, you know, but back then if people had two dogs and went to train them both, we just did 'em at the same time. Right. Um, we worked with each dog individually, but we trained both dogs.

Right. Yeah. So I had a little bit longer than hour session. Maybe it was like an hour and a half 'cause we had to do both dogs. Right. And um,

That's why you had a lot <laugh> pile dogs.

Then I would go home and I would have to practice with each of them separately, you know, and that was hard because one's in a crate and one's out doing the stuff and the other one's looking at me like, why am I in this crate? Why aren't I out here <laugh>? Um, so yeah, I think I, you know, I struggled with like the remotes 'cause I had one remote for the two. Yes,

Yes, yes.

Yes. So I have both dogs on the one remote and, um, which is good in one hand, but bad in the other because sometimes I zap the wrong dog. Yeah.

So if you have two dogs, get two remotes <laugh>. Like, you can always put 'em both on the same remote if you want to. Um, but sometimes it's helpful to just have them each have their own remotes, less confusing. And especially if you do have a second person too, you can each have

One. So it's a little hard with the two remotes, like walking and stuff, you know. So I like when I walk, I have the one remote, so I kind of mastered that. Yeah. But, um,

You can go back and forth, though, if you have a second remote, you know what

I mean? Sure, yeah. True, true, true. Um,

But yeah, I don't even do it that way anymore because it is so overwhelming. Yeah. Like, it's a

Lot. But I really, I loved it. Um, I thought it was great. You know, I've never heard of the e-collar before, the prong collar. So the whole idea of the punishment for the dog, yeah, took me a while to wrap my head around, you know, 'cause I'm a big softie. I don't like to, I'm more like soothing and <laugh>, it's okay. And, um, so typical human. Yeah. <laugh>. So to do the, um, high corrections for the unwanted behaviors.

And now you work here. Who knew? Yeah.

<laugh>. And I think, you know, for me that was probably where I got hung up the most. And, um, I was that person that you'd say, "How's that going?" And I'd be like, "I'm working on it." You're like, "Why are your dogs still barking out the window?" I'm like, "Well, I'm working on it" <laugh>. You know? 'Cause I thought I would go high enough and I wouldn't. Um, and it wasn't really, you know, I probably came to work here a couple years after that training, give or take maybe two, two and a half. Yeah. And, um, you know, I would say my dogs were really good.

Um, but, um, it was when I came here and started working and then I was doing all of that stuff day in, day out. Um, I would see, like, the things that I was doing wrong. You know, I would had my dogs in the nag zone. And, uh, so I went home and kind of tweaked that, um, <laugh>. So for me personally, it was, it was kind of hard to get to those high corrections, but I saw the value in it and I would see with my own eyes that the behavior would go away with other dogs.

So I was like, "What's your deal? Just do it."

<laugh>. Right?

Yeah. And because it works. Um,

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and how old were your dogs when you started training?

Oh, geez. Um, four years ago. So, um, eight, seven and seven and five. Yeah.

Which is awesome because people think once their dog is over, like a year old, two years old, like there's no point in doing training now. It's too late.

Yeah. And you know, with the first dog, Bella, we taught her to sit, we taught her to, um, I would say maybe sit down a little bit, but so she knew some commands, but when we got the second dog, it was hard to teach the sec—try to teach the second dog. It was hard to teach with two. I didn't know how to do it. Um, and then yeah. Um, that reactivity just kind of took over my life. Yeah. Or took over our life, I should say, at the time. And um, so I just, I couldn't take it anymore.

08:00 — Joyce recalls asking whether her five- and seven-year-old dogs could still learn.

And um, so I wanted to change that. Um,

Yeah. And that's what

We, so I was like, and I remember even asking you that I was like, in our consultation, I was like, you know, they're five and seven. I'm like, is it, am I, am I, you know?

Right. Um,

Yeah. Behind the eight ball here, will they ever really be able to learn? Yeah,

I hear that all the time. Right? We hear that all the time. Yeah. Um, totally lost my train of thought here, but

About how old they are.

Um, what was it? Damn, I can't remember.

You're too old.

<laugh>. I know. Well, I've been doing this a lot lately and it's starting to concern me. I'm like, hmm, maybe I should get this checked. You know? And that person that's in the room going, why? Like, come in this room <laugh>, why did I sit down in this chair? What am I doing? What is this microphone <laugh>? Like, what am I doing here?

Yeah. So they were five and seven and that really didn't impact them being able to learn. Um, I think I, I think I agree with some of the things you've said about older dogs in the sense that if they haven't had a lot of structure or if they haven't had a lot of ability

To learn, they haven't had to learn anything before, then

It, it takes 'em a little longer. Yeah, of course. Um, or they get, um, it's not so much that it takes 'em longer, it's just that they're like, what do you mean there's rules now? Like,

Well, that's part of it, you know, like, but actually just

I do what I wanna do. <laugh>

Just learning too is a skill. Right? Right. So if you've never really had to learn to, like, do something you wouldn't naturally normally do, like, that in and of itself is a skill, like having to learn what a word means or having to learn what place means. Like, if you've never had to learn anything, then your body literally has to learn how to learn. Yep. Yeah. And then there's that piece too, where they're totally taken aback by the fact that there's rules and boundaries now. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's definitely

Possible. So yeah, I mean, they were really great dogs. Um, or they still are great dogs. Um, and they just had those few things that, um, made it really hard for them to be around other people. Um, so we kind of fixed that.

Yeah. And I mean, what, what we see is so many people in that same boat and sometimes much, much worse. Right? You had reactive dogs and they were hard to walk and take places. But sometimes <laugh> we see even, even worse stuff where people can't leave the dog home alone or, um, things of that nature, and it, or the dog, you know, bites them in normal everyday scenarios, guards things, what, whatever the case may be. And it just kind of becomes normal. Right? Yep. And you start to not even realize, like, how not normal it is <laugh>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Right? Right. Exactly. Or like how much better things could be. Yep.

And I guess, you know, when talking about things that I struggled with, um, the other thing that I probably struggled with, um, with the most, um, was, um, again, it has to do around the high correction aspect, is, um, you know, I listened to you talk about the high pairing of the correction, um, with the recall command.

Yeah.

11:00 — Joyce describes initially rejecting the recommended recall correction and practicing separately with each dog…

And I thought that was, in my brain, I was like, that's outrageous. I don't know if I could ever do that. And I was like, well, I'm not doing that. So I didn't do it right away. I was like,

I think a lot of people do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, that's crazy. I'm not doing that. And so, you know, I went down to the beach and I did everything that you said to do. You know, I practiced on the long line. I brought each one separately. I did it when no one was around. And then I did it, built it up to the point that I saw them, each of them coming back to me. And I felt good about it, but it wasn't super challenging 'cause there wasn't a random dog, right, to them or what, whatnot. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I did get myself into a situation a couple times where I was that person where my dog's off leash running up to another, mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Yeah.

Person with their dog. And I'm the one saying, oh my God, she usually listens to me. I'm so sorry. And it was horrible. Luckily nothing happened. She's

Friendly. Yeah.

<laugh>. But, um, and then, um, I did the, the high pairing <laugh> from the high correction, and, and it stopped that. Yeah. So now I go down and I don't ever really worry about that.

Yeah. Yeah. Great. And so, I mean, what I'm hearing is what I think is true for a lot of people is like, until you have to, until you feel like you've exhausted everything else, you don't actually take that leap of faith, that <laugh>, right? Like that high correction is the right thing to do. Um, and we're talking about it in the context of recall, but obviously even unwanted behaviors, like, um, really, really common, you know, things like jumping or like reactivity especially, um, the loading, um, things like that. We tell people

Jumping at the door, so easy

To fix, counter surfing, getting into the trash, all that stuff. We tell people, you know, high correction, just eliminate that behavior so you don't have to struggle with it for the next, you know, six months, 12 months, the rest of your dog's life, whatever it is. Yes. But people won't do that right away. They'll go home and they'll, they'll try, um, even just saying no, right? Or a really low tap on their e-collar <laugh>. Yeah. They just grab it and tap and it's on a five, right? And sometimes it works in the moment, but then the dog's gonna do it again.

Um, like, you know, and so then they become those folks, right? We see them at the next lesson, at the next lesson and it's, well, we're working on it. Um, but until they see that, like, it's not, it's not going anywhere, um, they don't find the courage to actually follow the instruction, which is to just pair that, right?

That high, right? That high correction. It's really, really common. Um, so that's definitely something people struggle with for sure. Um, another piece that I think is really unnatural for folks is the structure. Yes. That we talk about. I think number one, it's hard to understand what we mean by that. Um, but it's also just really unnatural, right? Nobody lives with their dogs that way. Typically, um, people just let their dogs typically roam around, just be part of the family, part of the household. But obviously the problem with that is some dogs have unwanted behaviors or, um, they're just accustomed to kind of ruling the roost.

14:00 — Kati and Joyce explain structure through the difference between allowing couch access and dogs…

And so it's hard to change that without that structure piece.

Yeah. I think people miss the point. Um, hundred percent. Not intentionally, but I think they're hearing it and because it is so unnatural, um, they're probably in the back of their mind thinking, well, my dog doesn't need that. You know, my dog's fine. It's, it's not a problem. But they're missing the point that it's about, it's that period of time where you're, it's a new relationship where the dog's learning, they're listening to you always, right? That they're not just making decisions, right? And that's the part that's lost. You know, because it's like, well, I'm gonna let my dog run around the house.

They're not gonna do anything bad. Well, it's not really about that. Exactly. It's about, you know what, they just went over and they got up on the couch and maybe you don't care that they're on the couch, but for a short period of time, it's not really about whether they're on it or not. It's that they got on it 'cause you told them they could versus they got on it just because they want

It <laugh>. Exactly. It's you, like, changing your role, it's changing the dynamic, right? That's what it's about. Right. Right. And if your dog is just fully autonomous, then you lose all of that ground, right? You don't get the benefit of any of that.

Right. 'Cause it's like that's building the muscle for them where they're thinking before they act. It's almost like they're looking at you like, is this okay?

Yes. They're checking in, right? Versus they're just irrelevant now. Just

React. Yeah. To the situation at hand. And sometimes it's a good reaction and sometimes it's maybe not. Yeah. But, um,

I think another piece to that too is people getting actually used to giving their dog instruction and rules and boundaries as opposed to just letting the dog be autonomous. Like it's practice for the human as much as it's for the dog.

Yeah. And that, I would say that that's something too over time, um, you can get pretty lax about because the dog is great all the time, you know, so you're not thinking, oh, we're gonna do some down drills today. You know? Right. Yeah. Or we're, you know, I'm gonna put you on place, um, and make you stay there while we watch this movie. It's like, why? They're sleeping over there in the corner. But it's not so much about the fact that they're over there being good. It's just about, well, if you don't have them practice that, then they lose.

It's like anything. Right.

Exactly.

You lose your, um, proficiency.

<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the relationship never evolves, which is what we're usually really trying to do.

Right.

Yeah. Um, corrections are definitely, definitely hard for people. Structure is definitely hard for people, but it's like these aren't things we ask people to do to be militant. And I think it's really, really hard to explain that. And that's kind of why I love having you here <laugh> to help with that because, well, because you've been in their shoes.

Right.

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And now on with the show. Right. You've done this before. Um, and I actually haven't. Yeah. So I never had a trainer, um, tell me to do these things. I just, you know, I did my research and I found out myself and I DIYed everything. And then I ended up going down the whole rabbit hole and going to the seminars and workshops of the people that I admired and, you know, watching the videos and getting dogs and just working hands-on and getting the experience. But I never was the one, I mean, I went to trainers 'cause I had a terrible dog.

Right. Um, but they didn't know what they were talking about <laugh>.

So. Right. I, I think what you're saying is that you didn't have a different point of view about whether something should or shouldn't be done because

Like you. Yeah. Well, I never got people. Right. I never got a trainer that recommended an e-collar. I never got a trainer that recommended structure. Um, I never got a trainer that even understood why my dog was so terrible. <laugh>.

Yep.

Right. Because the trainer I got told me my dog was a blank slate. Um, which is silly, of course, because dogs are born with genes and personalities and they're all different. So you can have two dogs grow up in the same house and be completely different because they're not born a blank slate. But at any rate, neither here nor there, I just, I never had somebody look at me and tell me, hey, you should use your kennel more. You should take away some of the decision-making for your dog. You should maybe not let your dog on the furniture for a little while.

You should, you know, any of those things. Yep. And you have, so it's really nice to have you here and tell people, hey, like, I totally understand this is what I thought, this is what I did. Yeah. Um, and now on the other side of it, you can share what that looks like now, which is really awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I love that for sure. So many things.

19:00 — Joyce identifies excessive leash reliance as a common struggle during e-collar training.

Oh, leash management.

Yeah. That's a good

Call. Like they use it more than they need to.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and in the beginning it's actually

Like they go to that versus their first reaction is to, is to do something with the leash versus doing something with the e-collar.

Well, yeah. And I mean, even if you are using the leash, like let's say you don't even have an e-collar, um, just restraining the dog versus telling them something with your leash. A hundred percent.

Yeah.

Um, like if you have a nervous dog that wants to run away and you're just holding them in place with a leash while they're trying to run away, like nothing's happening there. Right. Nothing good. Versus

They're actually getting worse because, right.

Yes. Because they're rehearsing trying to flee. Right. So it's like instead of just giving them the information, whether it's through the leash or the e-collar. Yeah. Um, but definitely when people are e-collar training, like just staying too heavily reliant on that leash. That's a big one. Yeah.

Well, and the other thing too, like if you talk about like, the simple things, right. Um, doors, right. And, um, you see people, like when they come back here, even if maybe they're coming in for boarding, right. And they've already gone through the program months or years ago and they come back and sometimes it's perfection and other times there's the dog that's just coming in and they're not even in tune to it because they don't, it's not, the dog's not really pulling them, it's not a big deal to them. They're missing that, um, small moment of, and you were kind of saying it to the woman yesterday in the lesson.

It's like, it's less ab—it, it is about them physically being forward, but it's more about the problem with them being mentally forward.

Mentally, yes.

Because they, they're so in tune to be like, you know, just, what's that? What's that? I gotta get that. Versus being calm. Right.

Exactly.

So you might not care that your dog just kind of went through the door ahead of you because it's really in the grand scheme of things, they didn't bully you over, but they were. Right. You weren't relevant to them in that moment.

And that's the point, right. It's not actually, we don't give a shit who actually goes into

The door first. Right? Right. Exactly.

It's more about like, are you relevant to your dog? Like, are they learning that they're not fully autonomous all the time?

Right. Or the car, you know, it's like getting in and outta the car. It's like, just 'cause you open the door and they fly in, um, they're, they're in tune with the car door more than they're in tune with you.

Exactly. And that's a good way to put it. Uh, for sure they see that physical environmental cue and it's like that's what determines their behavior. And it, it's so tough sometimes to articulate to people why that's important, but it's like you either teach your dog, um, to respond to the things they see in the environment or to you. Right. And you really can't have it both ways.

Right. And I think that's the thing. 'Cause it's like the more you're around it, you start to understand like the value of that. Right. Because in the grand scheme of things, I think you're right. People are thinking, oh God, it's, you don't have to be such a hard-ass. It's like, I don't really care if I open the door and the dog goes in. But it's not about that. It's about the fact that you want the dog to be listening to you so you don't get to pick and choose when he listens or when—exactly.

She listens to you. Exactly. And then when, you know, when the other dog comes along or the squirrel, then they want the dog to listen to them. Right. And nevermind it's

All or nothing. And I think it's like that gets lost on people just because they're not doing it all the time. Like they—right. And you have like, what, an hour or two hours to get all of those points across to people and some of them hit and some of them don't.

<laugh>. Right. That's true too.

Yeah. Um, so it just, it's, it's really about, yeah, how they can move about their day.

It makes things so much harder, um, though, if people missed those moments and it's like we said yesterday, it's like those are the moments that actually comprise your day and actually impact your dog the most. Right. We can talk about the moments that you struggle with, like when a bike comes along or your dog's afraid of cars or they chase squirrels. But those things don't happen in the grand scheme of things nearly as often. Yeah. As you open a door and go through

23:00 — Joyce proposes follow-up group classes focused on small daily moments after obedience training.

It. We should even think about doing some type of like a, like I know we do a follow-up session with individual people. Yeah. But, um, it might be valuable to have like a, a follow, like a follow-up class or, or multiple ones where, you know, maybe it's multiple families come back. Oh my God. And you have to—that's a great idea. You know what, now you've been through all of the obedience, you've been through all the unwanted behavior stuff, but now these are the small moment things that I bet none of you—yes.

Are

Doing. See, now you started to go down that road and I knew where you were going with it, but now my brain has turned it into my idea <laugh>. Well, you can. So I this great idea. Um, no, I think that's amazing. Right? Yeah. We're gonna do that.

'Cause if you

Maybe for

You have to listen to a hundred percent of what is shared with you at a go-home session. It's a lot. So if you come out of there retaining 85% of it, that's considered a success. Right? Yeah. So what gets lost is that 15% of all of that stuff about the doors, the kennel, the, the little, the s small moments,

We're so gonna do this. I'm

So amped up and I think people would find value in that.

Well, yeah, I can think of a lot of things

Because it's like a fine, two good points. You know, you might think, think you it that way mastered the dog training, but now have you fine-tuned all these little things <laugh>?

Yes. Yeah. 'Cause that's gonna help that. I think that's a great idea. And then if we had multiple people at once, we could make them a little bit longer. Yeah.

So then

Everyone something would actually get

A longer know. It's like, I think the collaborative conversation would be more valuable. It's more like a group class. Yeah. Yeah.

So cool.

Because, you know, you might not be thinking of something and someone else says something and then it's a great idea. Everyone's like, oh yeah.

So I was thinking last night, um, when we did the go-home lesson, because the dog obviously that was going home is a little bit tense and, and she's easily stressed. She doesn't really like doing the work and she actually got really good at it and was very comfortable doing the work most of the time for us. Um, and that was fine. But then her owner came back and obviously she got really excited and we worked her through that and then we're doing the go-home lesson. Um, and you could see her kind of regress back to like being stressed doing the work.

Um, and that's another thing I think people have a hard time with, um, is when they have a dog that just looks stressed, right? Quote-unquote stressed. Um, and maybe they are, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

Right. Right. But you can have dogs like <laugh>. I had a customer, um, with a dog who was a coonhound of some kind, I think, who I would put her on place and literally she could be there for hours and she would still just be sitting up and panting. Like, unless I really followed through repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly. And like made her lay down and she'd still be stressed, she would still be panting, but I mean, she would be up, she would be stress panting. Um, that can be really tough for people. Right. Um, but sometimes that's just who the dog is.

26:00 — Kati and Joyce argue that visible stress does not necessarily indicate failed training and…

Right. So I think it's important for people to understand that like, that doesn't mean that you are doing something wrong or bad just because your dog is stressed.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, sometimes the shaking too.

With the adrenaline. Well, right. I think, I think what, what it's people need to realize is that that will dissipate in time. Right. Because if you work them through that discomfort, yeah. Usually they will stop. You know, like, um, we've had many dogs in here like that, that start like that. Yep. Um, and you know, if it doesn't go away in the two or three weeks they're here, it goes away as their owners work with them and work with them over time.

And then they're better for it on the other side. Right, right.

Because people have dogs come in now. Like even, um, can we say people's names or

No, I don't usually use people's

Names. So, um, this was a client that had private lessons and two of them and you know, I think one, maybe one was they either both were private lessons or one was. And um, and they come in now every, almost every single group class. Right. Yeah. And you would never look at those dogs and think, oh my God, they were like nervous Nellies, anxious like shaking all the time.

You talking about Erica? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Erica, we're using your name <laugh>. Sorry. I was trying so hard to like go around it.

Right. But I mean, because I, I experienced, um, the, the second dog I, the, I don't think

Yeah. Milo. Yeah. I think, well, the other one was private lessons. Okay. You were, you were here.

Was I there for

<inaudible> first? Yeah. 'Cause Milo was first.

Okay. Alright. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But they both, you know, they both would, um—oh yeah—for be very rigid on the, on the place cot, you know, and just very uncomfortable, um, during their training. Right. And then they worked through it, but now you see 'em in the Saturday classes and I mean, maybe there's a little of that, but I mean, just an average person just looking at the dogs, you wouldn't a hundred percent would see it at all. Sit outside of Dollar Tree and Milo would be

Shaking like

We quivering. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, he doesn't do that now.

No. Yep. And Phoebe goes away. I was surprising that Phoebe, 'cause she was like even worse, but I wasn't expecting.

So the point being that, you know, you can be very, as an owner, um, tuned into that and thinking, God, what's wrong? Is this training right for the dog? I don't know. They, they seem so uncomfortable. But then over time you work 'em through it. Like if they don't like the vacuum cleaner, you do the vacuum cleaner around them every day. It's just

So hard.

It doesn't matter anymore. Exactly. You know, and then they don't care about the vacuum cleaner <laugh> or anything. Right. You know, whatever. It's

29:00 — They discuss building nail-trimming tolerance through repeated practice, including working on one nail at…

Yeah. So you're actually building confidence. Right.

I mean, you

know, you know, which is so counterintuitive. I just, I think it's so hard for people to see that and see their dog in that state and not feel like they're causing it and that's bad.

Or even like some of the dogs with the, um, nail trimming, you know, where they're screaming and pulling away. Same thing. So I loved your concept of, yeah, of taking and doing it. You know, usually you trim your dog's nails once every so many months. Right. Um, but you were doing, building up that resistance or the resilience where, you know, you're doing like a nail at a time. You need to do one nail and then the next day or later on that day, you know, when you're just kind of making them realize that I'm gonna come at you like 12 times a day <laugh> until you don't care anymore.

That's right.

Um,

And then it becomes not a thing. Right.

And then

they're like, here, which makes sense. Take my paw <laugh>, take my paw, cut my nails, take, cut my nails, please. Before you know, the dog ask, begging you to cut their nails. No, we don't usually get there. <laugh>

No. Get, that's so much better.

That's a tall order

where maybe they don't have to be in a muzzle,

but yeah, where they can just totally tolerate it. Right. Right. They might never love it, but they're fine with it.

Or they can go to the vet and they don't have to be put under.

It's just a thing that happens. Yeah. Because we've had some dogs like that. That sucks. Like who used to put their dog on their down their nail? It's a lot.

'Cause then, you know, it's emotional for everyone.

Yeah. Keep the dog to chew 'em off before you bring them, bring them to the vet. My God. Um, yeah, for sure. It's just that's that was one that stands out. Um, to me it's that stress stuff because it's so, so common, but it's like that's episodic stress in it that, and it, the end justifies the means. Right. It's like we're actually teaching the dog how, yeah, to not be stressed. And that is stressful in the moment, but that's healthy stress. Right. Whereas if you don't do that, the dog stays stressed forever. Right. Forever. Right.

And it's like, okay, that's not any nicer <laugh>. Right, right. That's not compassion in my opinion. So, uh, but yeah, really, really common one. And a lot of dogs, they just, they're uncomfortable. Like you start doing the work with them and they're just like, what is this? I'm usually like queen of the castle. I do whatever I want. Like I go over here and I lay on the couch and I chew on my toy and I demand attention when I want it. And I guard things when I want, whatever the case may be. And then you're like, actually we're gonna do a few downs.

We're gonna do a few places, we're gonna walk in a heel. And just that makes them uncomfortable. Right. It's not that we're doing anything bad to the dog. Right. They're just like

Inconvenienced, <laugh>,

Inconvenienced and uncomfortable. They're like, holy shit. What is, what is this, um, whole dynamic like, 'cause they've just never done that before. Especially when they're, they are older dogs, you know, and they've just kind of been, especially small, small, older dogs. <laugh>. And, you know,

I think it's good when dogs are like that to to, to give them that work to do. It's, it's almost like it's the same thing with kids. You know? Like if you have, you know, it could be teenagers that are, uh, you know, aren't behaving and acting up and causing all this ruckus. Right. And then you put a lot of structure in and you give them chores to do and you give them things that they have to do when they don't want to. And you're just holding them accountable. You know, you're not being mean, but you're holding them accountable and they learn there's consequences.

32:00 — Kati introduces owners’ difficulty moving away from food rewards once dogs know commands.

You, you act right. And things are good. You act bad and things aren't good and, and they respect you more.

Right. A hundred percent. Which actually reminds me of another point, um, that we see folks have kind of a hard time with and that is, um, paying the dog. Right. So we have no problem with doing that. But the idea is you wanna get your dog to a point where you're not relying on that. Right. 'Cause that's a bribe. And people have a really hard time sometimes with like, well, do we give them a reward? It's like, well, once your dog knows it, they know it. Right. Right. I start expecting it at some point. It's like, my daughter's 10 years old when I tell her to go brush her teeth.

I don't give her a quarter <laugh>. Go do it. <laugh>.

That's true. Yeah.

<laugh>. Well, really, I mean, it's like if you do it every time, it just, it's really a bribe, but more than it is a reward anyway, so that's bad. Um, especially since your bribe is going to lose out at some point.

Right. Well, we had that, I think, um, one of our Hanks, right? Um, where, um, he had a lot of the treats in learning, um, which is fine, you know, to a certain point. But he was so good and so fast. Right. So he like sailed through the conditioning so quickly. Um, so sweet. And then we started to get to the point we were doing non-compliance. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And when you switch over to non-compliance, you don't feed every time. Right. Right. And he would do like two or three and then he'd look at you like, well, what the

Flip, what the, what

What doing? That's woman normal.

And that's of course normal.

He got onto that right away. I need to find it now. He's a superstar, but, um, yeah. It's like I want my food.

<laugh>

Retreat, not doing it. Yeah.

Well, with all that being said, I think your mic is dying, so we should pro—is that, I mean, we're not, we should probably wrap it up. Um, and Drake was going home soon, so we have some work to do. All right. But thanks for joining me today. Good session. It was nice having you.

It's nice to be here.

<laugh>. Bye, guys.

Bye.

Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show, and I look forward to next time.