Consultation Files—This Dog Is Destroying My Life With Separation Anxiety

00:00 — Kati Peppe opens Off Leash and Unfiltered with a trigger warning and asks listeners…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey, how's everybody doing today? Thanks for joining me, guys, for Off Leash and Unfiltered today. Been so crazy, so much going on. Um, I mean, we're always buried in dogs, so it's really nothing new, but for those of you that don't know, I'm also getting ready to move.

We're not going super far. Um, so I don't think any of our customers will, will really perceive that anything has changed. But, um, we did buy a nice big piece of land.

Sometimes I'm posting videos of me with the dogs there. It's a great place to go take them off leash because we have oodles and oodles of land, um, and there's a brook and there's lots of animals and it's just, it's a great place to take the dog. So I'm super excited, um, to move there and, and be able to enjoy that with, with all the dogs that come through for training and boarding. Um, but so things have been crazy <laugh> on our end trying to get all that squared away and the land prep and, you know, just everything that goes into moving.

Um, and I've been cleaning out my house and man, I'm so appalled by like the amount of garbage <laugh> that we have. Um, it's like every room that I go through, I have like three huge trash bags just full of crap that we don't need.

And I swear to God, I just did this not that long ago and had three trash bags full of crap we don't need. Um, so yeah, we're cleaning out and, but it feels so good though when you do that and you go through and you just throw crap away. I love that feeling. It's very therapeutic. Um, which is good. I need the therapy because we've had some challenging, challenging dogs lately. We've had actually a lot of puppies, but puppies can be hard. Um, and actually a couple of the puppies we just had were pretty challenging.

They were both very, very mouthy. Um, we had a Chihuahua that would get very defensive, um, and sort of alternate between defensive biting and like confident biting <laugh>, which is always a confusing mix. And, uh, we had Phoebe who just wouldn't settle in her crate and had a lot of accidents.

So we've definitely had our challenges. And then we had Fire Blazer, right, who was like super, super reactive, um, at, you know, everything triggered her at home. She would run through the invisible fence, so they couldn't even have her like out in the yard. Um, they couldn't take her anywhere. She was so reactive in the car. She would throw herself at the window, barking, growling, lunging at people. Um, she'd go after bikes, animals, like, it was crazy. Um, so she went home today and she's doing incredible. So that's really good news all around. Um, and we're already getting great updates from Phoebe's owner and how much better things are.

03:00 — Kati introduces a consultation involving a woman struggling with her dog's separation anxiety.

So things have been crazy, but they're good, you know, it's a good crazy and, uh, I love that. But without further ado, let's talk about some of the other stuff. So today we're talking, we're doing consultation files for you guys.

And my most recent consultation, um, was with a nice lady from outta state. And, um, she was considering sending her dog here for training. Um, unfortunately, I think it's just not in the cards for them right now to do a program like that. Um, but I wanna talk about that phone call because these are some of the more distressing calls we get. I mean, besides the ones where we have aggressive dogs and kids living together, like those ones are, those ones are the worst <laugh>, right? Because there's so much liability there. Um, but I kind of wanna share the story because I know she's not alone and there's just so many opinions like coming at her from all angles.

And frankly, they're all wrong <laugh>. So, um, I know there's other people in her boat, and so I want to talk about what she's dealing with and kind of what we talked about and tell you what I told her.

And this is a really common issue. We're talking about separation anxiety today, you know, and I went back through the podcast episode so I could send her, um, the episodes talking about separation anxiety. And I realized I really only had one. And it was, um, it was about prevention, which is amazing. It's an amazing episode. If you haven't heard it, go back and listen to the prevention series. Um, we did a prevention series on several different topics, this, and we did one on, um, separation anxiety. Um, so anyway, I sent that one to her, but obviously she's not in a position to prevent it because she's already dealing with it.

Um, she's up to her eyeballs in it. And I think a lot of people don't realize how serious separation anxiety can be. So when people drop off their dog for a board-and-train, we ask them about it.

It's one of the questions on our paperwork. When you're dropping off your dog, we ask you, is your dog okay being alone? Do they have any separation issues? And most people will kind of hem and haw a little bit and start describing what their dog does. And when you do that, we know that the answer is no. Hey, sorry, I've got dogs down here playing at my feet, not with my feet. They're playing with each other, but they're at my feet. Um, because if your dog had the type of issues that we are referring to, you wouldn't have to stop and think about it.

It would be a hands-down resounding yes. Um, so when we ask you that, we're asking, not if your dog kind of whines or fusses or like is a little uneasy for a few minutes after you leave. Um, we're asking if your dog goes nuts when you leave, um, and they're alone.

And so in this person's case, uh, like a little background, um, if I remember correctly, and I could be off about some of these things, I don't have any notes in front of me or anything like that, but the dog is under a year old, um, and was supposedly a stray down south and is one of those dogs that was kind of shipped up north. And, um, so she ended up with this dog. The dog spent some time in foster care. Uh, foster home described some mild issues, but nothing like she's dealing with now. And so I think it's pretty obvious that there's a pretty good chance that they weren't being fully honest, um, and fully disclosing, you know, the real state of, of the dog's behavior.

07:00 — The owner lives alone and adopted the dog a month earlier, with separation problems…

Um, but maybe not, right? There's no way to know.

Um, so she adopts the dog. She's only had the dog for a month and she's already been dealing with this for a while. So it started fairly immediately, um, after the dog went to live with her. She lives alone. It's just her and the dog. Um, lots of behaviors here. So at first, this person couldn't even get in the shower, guys, because her dog would lose its mind. So a lot of people don't understand that. They don't grasp, they don't grasp the reality of how severe it is and how much that really impacts your life when you can't do simple things anymore.

If you're doing household chores and you leave the dog's line of sight, they lose their shit, right? Literally, <laugh> and figuratively. So you can't go upstairs without the dog. You can't go to the bathroom without the dog. You can't take a shower without the dog, um, because they can't handle it.

It, and when I say that, what that means is it could, you know, there's a variety of ways that the stuff could manifest, but usually the dog's vocal and restless, um, they can't tolerate being contained, right? Doesn't mean they can't be contained anytime, but not when they're alone, right? So the second there's no people in sight, the dog has to get out of the kennel and they'll hurt themselves trying to get out of the kennel, right? They'll scratch and claw at it. They might bite it at the wires. Some dogs break teeth trying to get out of the kennel.

Um, they evacuate their bowels, um, out of stress, they urinate, right? And then that's going everywhere and they're trampling it around and they're splashing it everywhere. Um, and if they're outta the kennel or if they get outta the kennel, they're wrecking your house. They might be eating the walls, the furniture, tearing stuff off the table. Um, and we have dealt with dogs like that, but we haven't gotten very many. And, um, one of the worst cases we had was Porter. Um, and that was exactly what he would do. Um, and it's not always easy to fix.

So mild separation anxiety is actually usually very easy to fix. However, you're not gonna fix it with any of the advice that's out there on the internet. And so I wanted to make sure that I imparted some, some wisdom and some resources, um, for this woman because she can't do the training right now.

And, um, she lives outta state. And so she, she's looking into some things locally. And the fact is, this isn't an exaggeration, guys. Probably 98 or 99 out of a hundred trainers cannot fix this problem. They can't do it because A, they don't know how and/or B, they don't care to know how. They would rather pretend that they know how. And then when it doesn't work, say that there's something wrong with you or your dog. Um, and so what happens a lot of times in cases like this that are this severe is people go to what we call or what they call themselves veterinary behaviorists, right?

And I'm gonna tell you right now, I hate to paint them all with the same broad paintbrush, right? Um, maybe there's some out there that are different. I'm sure there are somewhere, but I've never met one, I've never heard of one.

If you're having a behavior, this is gonna sound so bizarre, but if you are having a behavioral issue with your dog, do not go to a veterinary behaviorist. It's so misleading, right? 'Cause they're supposed to be the authority on behavior. You, and they cost a lot. They're not cheap. And so you're, you're going to someone with all of the, all this education, quote-unquote education, right? All these letters in front of their name, all of these certifications, you know, maybe they've been doing business for a certain number of years. They have all this experience and you go there with hope that they can help you.

12:00 — Kati argues that veterinary behaviorists commonly prescribe medication, which she says often fails to…

And they cannot, almost universally, they cannot. Um, they will listen to you, which might be cathartic, I suppose, and then they will likely prescribe your dog medication. And most likely the medication won't help. Right? And maybe it will, maybe some dogs benefit from medication. Our experience historically has been that most dogs do not.

And if they do, it's still not enough. Some dogs get worse. So a lot like spay and neuter, like you just never really know what's going to happen. Um, and maybe they give you, maybe they do some training with you and maybe they give you some exercises to do, but they're never enough because they're never whole, guys. So here's the thing. When you have a title like veterinary behaviorist, what that means really is that you have signed an agreement to push an agenda. You have promised the powers that be, whoever that is, right, that you will never use punishment, that you will never use aversive.

That you will never make a dog more uncomfortable than necessary, that you will always use the least invasive, blah, blah, but whatever, whatever, whatever. Um, and the problem with that is it doesn't work.

It just doesn't work. So let me tell you, if people could love their dog out of separation issues, no dog would have them. If you could love your dog out of reactivity or aggression, they wouldn't have them. If you could love your dog out of getting into the garbage, barking out the window, jumping on people, they wouldn't do that stuff. Hey, sorry, my dog <laugh>, my dog needed to hear that. Uh, this is being a little impolite with the puppy, so it doesn't work. So you pay all this money and you get your hopes way up and you spend, you potentially spend all kinds of time doing these exercises or whatever it is they tell you to do.

And in the end, it just doesn't do anything. It just doesn't work. You don't get there. Um, and then at that point in time, people start to lose hope and they assume something's just wrong with their dog.

And there's, there's no hope and it can't be fixed or something's wrong with them, right? Um, and usually it's neither, right? Some, yeah, something's definitely wrong with the dog, but it's probably something that can be modified. It's probably something that can be better. Doesn't mean it'll be perfect. Doesn't mean the dog's gonna love being alone. Doesn't mean any of those things. But it can probably be better, right? Like nine outta 10 times, even more than that, probably nine, 9.9 outta 10 times it can be better. But pe, some people never get there 'cause they never talk to the right person.

So if someone says they're a veterinary behaviorist, I'm just going to say it, you should walk away. You should run, run away, okay? Because they're not gonna help you. And I don't mean to sound mean or judgmental or cocky or any of those things, guys. I'm just telling you exactly what I've seen historically, okay? Because the way we fix separation anxiety is with all the things that they tell you are bad and evil and harmful. So do the math, okay? And our experience has been that it's not harmful, in fact that it's extremely, extremely beneficial.

17:00 — Kati claims a 100% success rate for separation-anxiety board-and-train cases while noting uncertainty with…

And that is what we've seen time and time again. And as a side note, dealing with separation anxiety, so far with the dogs we've taken on, we have a 100% success rate, okay? As far as I know, certainly with the dogs that have done board-and-train. Private lessons are always a little more iffy 'cause people can kind of go home and do whatever and they don't necessarily tell you if it's not going well, right?

Especially if they know it's because they're just not following the protocols. Um, but we haven't had a ton of separation anxiety cases go through private lessons. Um, because I don't recommend it. I recommend you do board-and-train and I recommend it because we have a hundred percent success rate. And yes, we've had dogs go home and regress and struggle, but those people reach out when that happens and we help them get things back on track. And it's not usually difficult because the dog already has built the skills necessary, right? There's just something awry in their day-to-day living or their interactions with their owner.

And if we can troubleshoot that and pinpoint that, we typically get dogs right back on track.

And that's truly life-changing because we're talking about, like I said, you can't take a, she, you can't leave the house without a babysitter for your dog unless the dog comes with you. And even then, if you leave them in the car, that could be a problem too. And in her case, her dog won't go to the bathroom anywhere other than home <laugh>. And usually it's inside the house. She's finally got him going in the yard. Uh, but he'll only go in that yard, he won't go anywhere else. Um, he'll go in the car, right?

So she says, I can take him on a field trip, take him out with the family, right? Take him out somewhere and we're, we can be out for four hours outside and he won't go to the bathroom. We get back in the car, he goes in the car.

Um, and who knows why? And I haven't met the dog, so I don't wanna theorize too much about what's happening there, but, um, it takes over your entire life. So I just wanna point out, 'cause this isn't quote-unquote a rescue dog, right? So this woman adopted somebody else's problem, supposedly a stray dog. But was it really? We don't know. We don't know. There's no way to know. So she paid money to adopt a dog, right? Which according to society is what you're supposed to do. You can't go to a breeder anymore. And I'm not saying she thought that because she didn't, she just happened to see a dog that looked and sounded like a good fit for her and she adopted it.

But so now she adopted this dog, did not get a full picture of the dog's behavior, which, by the way, is pretty fricking common. I could name a hundred clients like that. Oh, surprise. Your dog wants to kill everyone that crosses its path. Oh, surprise. Your dog will shit itself in terror and break its teeth trying to get out of the kennel if you take a shower. Surprise, congratulations on your new dog.

21:00 — Kati praises the owner for seeking help rather than returning the dog.

Okay? No one gets a dog for any of that stuff. <laugh> Um, people want a companion. Um, but what she got, so she's committed enough to try to do something to fix it rather than just send the dog back, uh, which I admire. So what do we do when we have a dog like that? What would we do if the dog came here? What should she do if she's going to do it on her own? Well, that's what we're gonna dig into. If you have a dog with separation issues, whether they are mild or severe, this episode will be really helpful, I hope, um, because I think these things are applicable in any of those cases.

And a good portion of what we're gonna talk about is great as a preventative measure. So even if your dog is pretty comfortable being alone, you can help make sure it stays that way. Um, and you'll know what to do if that starts to change. So let me lay out what we do.

So all of the dogs that come through here in our programs, we're going to lay a very solid obedience foundation. Um, even if it's a behavior-centered program, we still teach all the obedience because that's gonna be part of the recipe. We're gonna leverage the obedience commands in a way that help us overcome some of these problems. Now, obedience alone is not enough. You can teach your dog obedience all day long. And if you don't know how to address state of mind, you don't know how to chip away at things, you don't know how to inhibit behaviors, the obedience will not do you any good.

Okay? So

If I took this woman's dog and I, I taught it sit and down and heel and place and all those wonderful things, that would be wonderful, but it would still have severe separation anxiety. So that alone is not enough, okay? But we do lay a solid obedience foundation, all those things I just mentioned plus recall, meaning coming back when called. And once we teach all those things, we also make them non-negotiable, right? We train the dogs with very high level of reliability. We get the dog to a point where there's, there's now a correction. There's a downside if you don't do the thing that I ask you to do.

And that's so, so is so important, guys. 'Cause again, if you're going to leverage these things to chip away at your dog's state of mind, they have to be non-negotiable things. Otherwise you don't get any of that magic.

I'm just gonna apologize now if you can hear him. Pug trying to breathe in the background. <laugh> He's playing with another dog right now and he's just, he can't breathe, right? He is a pug, he's a flat face and I mean, he sounds like he's gonna drop dead of a heart attack if he does like a couple laps around the kitchen. <laugh> Might need to lock him up and let him rest for, for a little bit. Um, but they're being pretty good and he is having a good time. So I was just letting him go.

But his breathing is honestly starting to annoy me. Um, he might need to catch his breath. Anyway, the non-negotiable nature of these commands is super, super important. Um, so just teaching the dogs the commands, guys, that's not gonna help you that much. You have to take it to the next level.

And there has to be a downside for non-compliance, okay? And I'll give you one example of how that helps to chip away. Okay? I could go on all day, uh, I'm not gonna do that, but I do like to give examples and explain why, like what's happening, right? Without going too in-depth, right? Because I could carry on about things and like kind of make up like what's happening in the dog's head and why exactly this works in this stomach. And it's like I don't wanna make things up, right? I try to really be direct.

I try to be honest and I'm gonna tell you like if I don't know, I don't know, right? Maybe I don't know, but I just know it works because I've done it a million times. Like there's some of that, right? Um, and sometimes I do have a pretty good idea and then sometimes I'm, I have theories, right?

And so I'll share those. But a lot of dog behavior's not that different from humans, right? The principles are kind of the same, right? The difference is the dog doesn't really have the cognitive abilities that we do. They can't reason like we do. Um, and they obviously don't understand the English language like we do. So those are some pretty major differences. Um, but the way the brain like forms connections and discovers patterns and those things are largely the same. They're nothing different. But anyway, one example of how obedience, non-negotiable obedience helps chip away at separation anxiety.

26:00 — Kati introduces the place command as a way to practice staying put when an…

This is just one example, the place command. So if you have a dog with severe separation anxiety, chances are they don't like it when you leave their line of sight at all, right? You don't have to leave the house. Even you, you can't even leave the room.

All right? Well, so now you put your dog on place, they're not allowed to get off the place spot and you are gonna leave the room and your dog, they're gonna screw up at first, right? But that's the training. You're gonna fix that and you're gonna provide a high enough level of accountability that the dog goes, well, shit, I'm not doing that again, sorry. But that's like, that's, that's how that works, right? Because if you don't, then your dog is just gonna get off there and follow you and that's a fail. And your dog never learns to resist that impulse and try something different.

And that is the key, right? Like you could tie your dog in a room and leave the room, but the dog's not learning anything that way. Guidance because they're going to be at the end of that leash trying with all their might to get to you to follow you to see where you are.

So you have to understand the way behavior works is getting the entity to voluntarily. And when I say voluntarily, I don't mean they love it, but the brain is choosing to do it. So you have to get their brain to choose to stay on that place spot, to choose not to follow you, right? So they're making a very uncomfortable choice. And the only way to get a dog to do that is to correct them high enough when they make the wrong choice. And it's going to be high because your dog is so uncomfortable not being able to follow you.

And so you have to make that consequence valuable enough. And um, this is not day one stuff, guys. This is what we do after our foundation is laid. Your dog's on a place cot, they can't follow you. They know that the correction isn't worth it. So the brain chooses to stay put on the cot. And guess what happens then? You're one step closer to your dog learning, oh, I actually don't have to follow this person all over the place. I actually can choose to hang out here and this is fine.

I don't explode. The sky doesn't fall, nothing eats me, right? It's fine. And it takes a lot of rehearsal. It's rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat, right? But that's one example of how we can leverage obedience to chip away at state of mind. And then the next step for separation anxiety would be something like putting them in the crate and leaving, just leaving the room, right? And then pretending to leave the house. And what do we do then? We pretend to leave the house. We have cameras up or we have a window open where we can see and hear. Well, we're going to correct the behavior that indicates the discomfort, right?

30:00 — Kati describes using e-collar corrections for fussing, pacing, and pawing at doors rather than…

So it's not directly the discomfort or the anxiety that we're correcting, it's the behaviors associated with.

So if the dog is fussing, if the dog is pacing, if the dog is pawing at the door, those are things we would correct for on our e-collar, would be an e-collar correction, okay? And usually we're starting at the lowest levels of distress. Meaning if I put the dog in a kennel and that alone is upsetting to them, then we start there. If I put the dog in a kennel and me walking 10 feet away, if that's the beginning threshold where they're uncomfortable, I start there. Right? If I have a dog that just can't even stand a kennel, I'm not putting him in there and going down the driveway, we'll get there.

Might not be in the next 10 minutes, okay? So whatever the dog's threshold is, that's where we start and we start telling the dog right away on the e-collar, hey, you gotta settle. And yes, we do this on day one of training. Why? Because what else are we going to do? So all this garbage about building up your dog's tolerance and taking it slowly and leave the gate open and let him go in and out and have him do 30 seconds and then do one minute. And how much fucking time do you think people have?

They have a life to live. They have to go to work, okay? And I'm not saying that the dog should be fixed overnight, but I'm saying you can't wait 30 days to actually start having these conversations with the dog. That's not realistic. And if your dog comes to me for a board-and-train for separation anxiety, I can't do that. My life's crazy. Your dog's gonna have to start learning right away how to settle in the crate. And frankly, that's a good thing. Don't you want your dog to learn to be comfortable in the crate?

Sure you do, right? Everyone wants their dog to learn to be comfortable in the crate. But other people who have all these stupid, uneducated, no-experience opinions, all these armchair trainers are like, oh no, you can't do that. Your dog's gonna hate the crate. Your dog's gonna hate you. And they don't know what they're talking about.

They don't know what they're talking about and they don't care, right? They just have this idea in their head that sounds good and that's it. Then that's just the way it is. Like, you, you should be able to fix this and you should just have to just take your time and love your dog out of it, right? Time, love and patience, that's all it takes. No, that's not all it takes. It actually takes skill and gumption, <laugh>, that's what it takes. Um, so most dogs that come in here with separation anxiety, we get that under control.

33:00 — Kati says easier cases improve within days, while harder cases may take weeks to…

Lickety-split within a couple of days.

Some of the harder dogs we've had, like the dog I'm describing now, um, couple of weeks to get them to a place where we're really turning a corner. And that's hard stuff. It doesn't sound like it. It's like, oh, two weeks in the grand scheme of things, that's nothing. It's like, yeah, that's true. Um, but especially when you've dealt with like hundreds and hundreds of dogs and you know how rare that is and how quickly you're usually able to get it under control, when you spend two weeks losing sleep, um, running to the store and coming back to a hundred barks on a bark collar or, you know, poop and pee and just, it's hard.

It really, really affects your life a lot. Um, obviously it does the owners, but I mean even me as a trainer, it takes up a lot of my bandwidth. When you have a dog like that, uh, it's not easy.

And so this idea that you're just gonna have your dog spend one minute in the kennel and then two minutes and then you're gonna walk outta sight for two and a half minutes, it's just stupid <laugh>. Like you have to fix the problem. And we do. And I'm just sharing how we do it, right? So we correct those vocalizations in the kennel and, you know, what we see happen even with the really difficult dogs like I'm describing, what we see happen is they settle, they give up and they go to sleep. Um, the difference is the easier dogs, the ones that are at the easier end of the spectrum, um, they'll kind of give it up right away after that.

Like they might pipe up every now and then, but it gets less and less and less and it's hardly even a thing anymore after a few days.

The harder dogs, they might pipe back up in 10 minutes, right? And then 10 minutes after that, then an hour after that, then 10 minutes after that, right? So it's really a rollercoaster ride and really, really requires a lot of experimentation and consistency, which sound like conflicting things, but they're really not. Um, the consistent piece is every time you start to fuss and vocalize or paw or do those things, like there's going to be something corrective, right? But you can experiment with, um, what kind of a correction, what intensity of a correction, different tapping patterns on your e-collar.

36:00 — Kati discusses varying e-collar intensity and correction duration, emphasizing the skill required to assess…

Sometimes it's a quick tap, sometimes we're holding it down for a little bit. Um, the level is different, right? So there are things you can change to see what does this dog respond to. And that's kind of where the skill piece comes in. And that's the scary part if you're doing this on your own, is like people are afraid of it, right?

Of course they are. It's like novel. They've never done it before. They have no idea what's happening or what's going to happen or, you know, if they're gonna hurt their dog or ruin their dog. And look, <laugh> things can actually get worse, right? They're already about as bad as they can get. Um, and unless you're doing it randomly, right? If you're just turning that thing up to a hundred and ringing it like a doorbell and it's seemingly random to the dog, like that's about the only way you can really do it wrong, okay? Most people are gonna start lower 'cause that's what they're more comfortable with and that's fine, it's just probably not gonna work.

And it might, for some dogs it does, right? For some dogs that will drive them up and make them worse and then people really panic. But like, that's not that uncommon either. 'Cause if your dog is already upset and escalated and you come in with that e-collar at a lower level, which is almost like just annoying them, right? You can actually drive them up more.

That's known to happen with reactivity too. Um, so it's just a matter of like, hey, I'm gonna try some things. I'm gonna see what my dog responds to and I'm gonna be consistent with it. And you know what else helps, guys? A made-up mind that'll help you with everything in life because once your mind is made up, you're gonna get there. You say, you know what? I'm gonna do whatever it takes. I'm gonna get there. And there's so many resources today online and yes, most of them are garbage. You have to mine for the good stuff, guys.

But it's out there. There are some trainers out there that are very good at this and they charitably share all this information. So I share things as well, but I don't have social media that's as organized or thorough as some of the other trainers out there.

At least not yet. Um, I wish I did. I would love to have time to do that, um, something I'm working on. But you can find resources out there where people do, they share their skillset and it's free. And you have to do the work, you have to watch the videos, you have to invest your brain in it and think about these concepts so you understand them a little better. And sometimes you have to piece the stuff together. It's like a puzzle. And of course the behaviorists, <laugh> and many other people out there would tell you not to do that.

That it's a terrible idea that you're gonna fuck everything up. Um, and fuck them because they're just, who are they to say? And what is it you're gonna do that's so bad? Like, your dog is already miserable <laugh>, okay? Like, what are you gonna do to make that worse? Your dog is miserable. You can leave it that way or you can do something and I don't know about you, but I choose do something.

39:00 — Kati describes repeating corrections when fussing resumes after a dog settles or sleeps.

So we correct the fussing and the dog lays down and goes to sleep and you just have to be prepared for it when they pipe back up and you're gonna do it again. And you have to try your hardest. If you do have a challenging dog, you have to try your hardest to just, when you, if you get frustrated, um, or if it's emotionally overwhelming, just take a second and breathe. Even if you let the dog bark for a minute to take a second and breathe, it's okay <laugh>. Um, and you have to be willing to step outside your comfort zone though.

So especially if you set, if you are using e-collar, right? And there's really, that's the best way <laugh> to tackle this for sure. If you have a number, a set number, a set level in your head and you're like, that's the highest I can go or that's the highest we've ever been. Or you are tying your hands. So I'm not telling you, you have to turn it way up because I can't tell you that. Only the dog can tell you that.

But you have to be willing to try things to succeed. So if you are not seeing success, if you're not seeing a change, then you need to change. You need to do something different. And it's when we are too uncomfortable to do that, that we get stuck and we plateau or we fail and we get discouraged. But you can't expect to get results, different results doing the same thing over and over again. So you have to be willing to step outside your comfort zone and try some stuff. Now I will say we like to use a marker, okay?

And usually when we're correcting anything on an e-collar or correcting anything with any tool, we mark the behavior with a no first, and then we correct the dog after we say no. Separation anxiety is no exception. I would highly recommend marking the vocal behavior or whatever the behavior is your dog is exhibiting, and then after you mark it, correct it.

42:00 — For extreme separation cases, Kati uses the e-collar beep instead of her voice to…

But with separation cases, especially extreme ones, we don't usually use the word no. Instead we will use the beep function on the e-collar. And that's for a couple of reasons. Um, but one of the biggest ones is because when you say no, your dog hears your voice. And so that alone might affect their behavior. So we prefer the marker to be the beep on the e-collar. So just an example of what that would look like is whenever you're gonna stim your dog for being vocal or pacing or any of those things, you would beep your e-collar then maybe wait one second and stim, adjust your level if it needs to be adjusted first, right?

So don't panic and rush to the stim. Make sure you're on an appropriate level. Um, and I'm gonna tell you guys like that, that's like the biggest piece.

Is there more to it? Yeah, I think there's more to it. I think how you live with your dog every day makes a difference. So adding structure, I know I'm a broken record, but the structure, adding structure into your life. Now, when I say structure, I don't mean a routine. Like you have a mealtime, you have a bedtime, you have a walk time. That's not what I mean, that's what everyone always thinks. I mean, it's not what I mean, what I mean is your dog doesn't have freedom, right? Now, that is structure. Structure is order.

It's saying, I tell you what to do, I tell you where to be. I tell you to relax. I tell you to go to place. I tell you to go to your kennel, I tell you to heel, right? But you don't get to walk around all day making choices anymore.

That structure does not mean that your dog can't have any free time. Although some can't <laugh>, it does not mean that your dog cannot have playtime. It does not mean any of that. But those things are going to be minimal for a little while. And they're only going to happen at your discretion when you say, okay, we're gonna take a break from the kennel and from place. We're gonna take a break from walking in a heel, all these things and we're gonna just, just go throw the ball around. Or I'm going to give you a few minutes to just hang out in the living room with us while we watch TV.

Fine, but probably don't have a snuggle fest when you do it. I'll tell you right now, some of the most challenging dogs that we've had with separation issues, they go home and they do regress a little bit. And they, I'll tell you why they regress. It's not just because they're back home in their old environment. It's not just because they're pulling up their old files and doing what they used to do. It's because the owners revert back to treating the dog the way they used to treat the dog, the way they used to live with the dog, which is very soft, very playful, very affectionate, very touchy, um, always talking to the dog, always stroking the dog.

And when you do that, you, you super jog those neurological connections, right? And it all keeps it's rushes back, kind of like when you remember the dream you had last night, right? It just all, oh yeah, right? And suddenly your dog is right back in that needy, codependent state of mind again. Um, they're more aroused and it's just all these things are kind of glued together and so they all start coming back. So we do tell people, like that's one of the harder parts when you're dealing with something this severe is you have to dial back on that stuff for now.

46:00 — Kati suggests gradually reintroducing affection after improvement, adjusting according to the dog's response.

And for a lot of dogs you can filter that stuff back in once they're doing better, just slowly filter it back in. Don't do it all at once. Uh, and most dogs are okay, but some of them aren't. And the only one that can tell you that is your dog.

I can't tell you that. So long term, how much structure you need to provide for your dog, how much you need to stay dialed back on the softness and the affection. We don't know. Um, you need to just execute now to the best of your ability. And then over time, let your dog tell you, hey, like, I'm slipping backwards now because like we're not using place anymore and we're doing lots of snuggle time on the couch. And, and they'll tell you, I can't do it. I'm just—right. They start getting whiny, they start getting needy, they start doing their old stuff again.

And you know, you're like, okay, we're, we're too loosey-goosey, right? So you have to be able hopefully to recognize that pattern before it gets too far off the rails. But the good news, guys, is even if it goes off the rails, you can always get it back on. You just have to be willing to do the work. Your dog doesn't forget.

Okay? Um, but the obedience helps you with the structure piece, right? Because now you can tell, tell your dog, walk in a heel, stay on place, stay in a down, all these things. So you also become different to them, right? You become a more relevant entity in a different way. 'Cause right now you might only be relevant in the sense that you're a Pez dispenser, an affection dispenser, you know what I mean? And you're not somebody that your dog sees with any real firmness, right? You're like a, a pile of Jell-O, no offense. Like I'm not picking on people, I'm just saying from your dog's perspective, like the whole world is Jell-O.

Like everything's kind of soft and wiggly and uncertain and they need firm ground and they need clear instruction, right? Because anxiety is a lot of question marks, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of arousal, a lot of, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, right?

And so to quell that, we need order, we need clear instruction, we need to know what's expected. We need to have things be predictable and understood. And that's the gift you give your dog when you teach them obedience and it's non-negotiable. And now you can tell them all day when they're like, what do I do? What do I do? You, you can say this is what you do. That's what you do. This is what you do. I want you to do this. I want you to do that. I want you to go there, right? And everything gets so much easier for the dog and you become a person who's now worthy of something besides just excitement.

'Cause most people, when we meet them, even with dogs that don't have separation anxiety, their dog just sees them as pure excitement. There's nothing else. And that can't possibly be a great relationship. It might feel good to you that your dog loves you and needs you and is excited to see you. That's great, but your dog doesn't listen to you <laugh> because you're—why would they?

And so you can help quell a lot of the arousal, the shenanigans, the monkey business, the anxiety by just being a person who actually does have expectations and draws boundaries, right? It's not about being mean. It's not about being a bully. It's just like you have to change the way your dog views you and the way they go through the world. And the only way to really teach your dog to, to be okay and to gain confidence is to have requirements, right? To push them to do things that are hard and you won't be able to push them to do things that are hard.

50:00 — Kati summarizes her approach: enforced obedience, extensive kennel time, daily structure, and corrections for…

If you're not a person who enforces rules and boundaries, your dog needs that from you.

So anyway, that's what we do, guys. We lay that obedience foundation, we make it non-negotiable. We leverage it in every way we can to help. We do tons of kennel time, tons of structure. We correct fussing, whining. Uh, we try not to leave the dog genuinely alone until we know they're doing okay. Uh, but if we have to, a bark collar goes on and it's a bark collar that counts barks. So we can see what happened while we were gone. And um, the first time we do that, we don't actually leave. 'Cause we need to make sure that the dog responds appropriately to the bark collar because some dogs will have a complete panic attack and uh, just set the bark collar off over and over and over again.

And we don't want your dog going into that kind of a tizzy, um, when you're not around.

So we wanna make sure, um, that they're not having a panic attack when it goes off. And so generally the way you're gonna pick the level on the bark collar is you're gonna start somewhere low or middle of the road and you're gonna see how many barks it registers. And if there's still barks on there, more, more than one, then maybe you need to bump your level up. If it's 99, you probably need, probably need to bump your level up, um, until hopefully you find a level that is effective. And that can be a huge game changer.

Like just that. Because the other thing is the bark collar's super consistent, right? I wouldn't use it alone as your separation anxiety tool. And the reason being is because there's no versatility with a bark collar. So it's great when you're not around 'cause it can fill that gap when you're just not there to address escalation.

But ideally, we really wanna get the dog before they bark, right? When they start whining. And so only you can do that, um, with an e-collar, with the remote and the control in your hand. Um, and we also sometimes wanna play with the intensity. We might go higher, we might go lower, um, depending on what's happening. And the bark collar can't do that either, right? Set it and forget it, and that level is the level. So you have a lot more control with the e-collar and that is strongly our preference. But if you're not gonna be home and you're not convinced your dog is a hundred percent ready for that, a bark collar might be the right tool to fill that gap.

Um, that's it, guys. We dial back affection and excitement, lots of structure, all this stuff that sounds unfun, right? And it's like, yes, you can still have fun, right?

But that isn't the goal right now. The goal is rehab. The goal is to get better. And that's hard work. You can do the hard work and then once you start seeing the results, maybe you can start doing some of that stuff again, right? But we just, we like to tell people to take it slow and then, and to really pay attention to how it impacts their dog, right? If you start giving your dog freedom and things are going okay, okay, right? But if you start giving them freedom five, six hours a day and suddenly your dog's getting whiny again, your dog's pacing all around again, your dog acts up a little bit when you leave, it's like maybe you need to take a step back 'cause you don't wanna let that spiral.

Um, but what we have found with this recipe, um, is everybody out there will tell you that it's bad and wrong, <laugh>, but then it actually gives us a hundred percent success rate with the dogs that come through <laugh>.

54:00 — Kati invites listeners to send questions and suggest topics for future episodes.

So, um, do with that information what you will, but hopefully we help somebody out there and, uh, would love to hear from you guys if you have questions, um, or if there's topics you guys wanna hear about, please reach out and let us know. Um, you can contact me at Kati at Diamond K9 dot com. I know I'm about to say that again in a minute. Um, at the end of the show I have an automatic piece that plays that will say that. But, um, would love, love, love to hear from you guys and, and the stuff you wanna hear about.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And your questions on separation anxiety because it's such a serious topic and I can't believe I haven't, um, haven't really talked about it before. Um, but I'm glad I got to share our process with you guys and the results are, um, they're priceless. So good luck with your dogs, guys. Let me know if you have questions. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes.

That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time I.