Aversive Control In Dog Training—You Don’t Have To Choose Between A Dog That Listens Or Has Fun: Live The Life Of Both/And

00:00 — Kati Peppe opens Off Leash and Unfiltered with a trigger warning and a request…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everyone, thanks for joining me today for another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. Hope everyone had an amazing Father's Day weekend. Um, ours was great. Weather was pretty good.

Um, except that I had to spend a lot of time blocking people on social media. Uh, this certainly isn't like a new thing, um, but it was exceptionally, um, it was an exceptional onslaught this weekend. So it was like a steady stream of ignorant, miserable people spewing their emotional, meaningless garbage at me and filling my page with their profanity.

And so it was like just, you know, having to block, block, block, block, block constantly. Um, yeah. And so I expect more and more on that as as time goes on, and that's fine. Um, just so you know, if you're one of those folks, um, and people think, well, why would they be listening to your podcast? Like, if they don't like you and they don't like what you do? 'Cause that's what these folks do because they have no life, right? They have nothing to do. They have no meaning, they have no purpose. They probably have no real relationships and they spend all of their time seething and stewing and ruminating and plotting, um, until they fucking die because they're miserable.

And if you're one of those folks, you should know that I care approximately this much, right? Fucking zero. Like I don't give a shit at all. <laugh>.

So most of these comments and angry reactions and all of this garbage was around the video of Phoebe on a prong collar, the little 13, 14-week-old Corgi puppy that we had here. Super, super adorable. A really good girl, did have a few issues, but, um, I did a video of her on a prong collar, and I was talking about her dramatic response, um, when she was panicked and she didn't wanna move forward and she would be very vocal. And that set some people off. Um, don't care, <laugh>. So in the end, I mean, I got a, an update on Phoebe already and she's doing so amazing back home and her owner is so happy.

Her words, she said, "I'm so happy I could cry." So, you know what, like <laugh>, if I have to care about one or the other, can you guess which one I care about <laugh>, because it's not the the weird like keyboard warrior randos that I give a shit about, right?

My client's really, really happy and the dog's doing great and that happens to me. All that matters to me. So we're just gonna keep, we're gonna keep trucking. It just fuels the fire more <laugh>. So, um, so yeah, so today's episode I thought would be appropriate to talk more about aversive control. And I know I talk about it a lot. I talk about punishment, I talk about correction. And you guys, the reason we talk about it so much is because it's what's missing. It's what everybody is missing. And even when they think they have it, even when they think they do it, most people don't or they don't do it very well.

04:00 — Kati argues that most people struggle to use aversive control, corrections, and punishment effectively.

So I'm gonna say something and I want you to not take it personally, and this isn't true for everybody, but like most people, the vast majority, okay guys, people suck at aversive control.

They suck at it. They suck at correction, they suck at punishment, they suck, suck, suck. There, I said it <laugh>, but it doesn't have to be that way <laugh>. So, and I'm here to help you, not pick on you. So if, if you think you are one of those folks, um, acknowledge it and listen to this episode so you can get better. And I'm here to tell you guys, you're normal, right? If you are, if you are one of those folks, it makes you normal, right? There's a reason people suck at this and it's because you're human, it's normal, right?

Because our emotions get in there and fuck with us and that's normal. Um, but you do have to fight those instincts, right? You have to fight those emotions, um, in order to do what really is the right thing to move you and your dog forward. Um, and so we'll talk a little bit about that and the fact that that doesn't mean you're sacrificing all the good stuff, guys. Didn't mean any of that. So I was just thinking about my own dogs. Um, people might think that my dogs are so unlucky and I'm so militant and they have it so bad and they probably are afraid of me and they don't like me, or, and none of that is true.

None of that is true.

My dogs have a great time. My dogs never see a leash, guys, unless we're going somewhere where they have to be on a leash. You know, if it's an on-leash area or it's an unsafe area, or there's traffic or there's lots of people around and I wanna keep them closer, they never see a leash. Booboo has gone probably close to a year at times without seeing a leash, 'cause they don't need it. They listen to me, right? So there are probably lots of folks out there whose dogs haven't seen a leash, but that's because they don't care what their dog is doing and their dog's all over the place and not listening and running up to people and chasing things or whatever, and they just deal with it.

That's not our case. My dogs listen to me. So you can have both. You don't have to pick one or the other.

You don't have to pick happy dogs or dogs that listen to you. It's both/and, guys, both/and. So my dog Booboo is about, it's hard to believe. He's like six years old now. Um, and he's not real keen on strangers. He's actually a pretty social dog and he wants to meet and he wants to get affection, but he's also nervy about it, and he gets very defensive. And if someone's staring him in the eye, he'll get really, really uneasy and tense. And so, and of course I don't allow stranger interactions like that right now. I know my dog and he doesn't have to go say hi to strangers, and, but I know after someone's been around for a little bit, it's just not a thing anymore, right?

So what do we do? We just don't allow those interactions right off the bat, and organically, I know things will just be fine, but we don't have someone walk through the door to say hi to my dog, which is stupid anyway. But anyway, my point was he's not real comfortable with strangers, but he's on place right now in my office and I was doing things, I had other dogs to bring in. I had some gear I had to bring in from the car, I had to go to the bathroom, I had to do all this stuff.

08:00 — Kati uses Booboo staying on place when someone enters her office as an example…

And he's on place in my office. And I know if somebody walks in here, he's not getting up, he's not gonna do it. Okay?

Why is that? It's not magic, guys. It's, it's like there's a reason and it's because I've taught him, if I put you on place and then you choose to get up before I say it's okay, that's gonna suck. And it's gonna suck enough that you never wanna do it again. Now, that sounds so mean, right? So, but it's not mean, and here's the thing, when we did that, and when I provided those corrections, I wasn't mad. I wasn't mad at him, I wasn't angry, I didn't yell at him, but I know I know what I need to do to fix it.

I know what I need to do to change the behavior. I know what I need to do to inhibit the behavior of breaking a known command. I know what that is. And what that is is a contingent consequence.

So I have to link an intolerable consequence to breaking that known command. And I did. I have, and if I have to do it again, I will, right? But I haven't had to do that in a super long time. Because that's the thing, if you do it correctly, you don't have to do it over and over and over and over. And it hurts me when I see people stuck there <laugh> and I get it, right? Because again, it's like, I get it, you're human, it doesn't feel good, and you worry about all these irrational things or even rational things, but they're not real.

Um, when I see people stuck in a place where basically they have just enough compliance that they can float, right? It's like they, it's just enough to keep their head above water. It's just enough to keep things sort of under control, right? But they can never really shut off because they always have to have that mental, they always have to reserve that mental space for the dog because the dog's not truly reliable. So everything they do, think about how that affects your life, right? Everything they do all day, every outing they go on, every trip they go on, every family gathering.

What, when they bring the dog to work, whatever it is, there's always this piece of their brain that's like, gotta watch the dog, gotta watch the dog, gotta watch the dog, right? And then it's, oh, gotta say no. Gotta correct the dog. Gotta correct the dog. Gotta correct the dog because things aren't really cleaned up because they haven't been willing to do it. They haven't dared to do.

So if that's you, make today the day, guys, like, let's clean things up, right? And I know I say it every time, we don't start there, right? But if you, if you know that your dog knows, right? So only you know that. I don't know that. If you know that your dog knows what the expectation is, then the only thing missing is you finding it within yourself to actually hold them accountable. And don't forget, doesn't mean you have to be mad, right? Because that's the thing too, we do start getting mad. Of course you will because you know they know and you have to tell 'em over and over and over again.

So people do get mad. And it doesn't have to be that way, guys.

It doesn't have to be that way. It's dog training. So you can keep trying to reason with your dog, you can talk to them about it, right? You can have a chat, it's not gonna work. You can keep grabbing that remote and tapping on an eight. It's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. What level? I don't know what level. Probably a lot higher than whatever you've been using. So when someone hears, right, that I'm doing like an entire podcast episodes on just turning up your e-collar and holding your dog more accountable and like using real punishment.

13:00 — Kati emphasizes that she enjoys rewarding her dogs, giving affection, and having fun despite…

It sounds like I'm just an ice queen. That may or may not have been a nickname of mine at one time. May or may not.

But here's the thing, guys. I'm not, I'm not, um, I love having a good time with my dogs. I love rewarding my dogs. I love giving my dogs affection, right? But I don't talk about that because it doesn't fucking help anybody. Everybody already knows that. Everybody already does that. It's like when folks send their dogs to me and they're craving hearing about their dogs having a good time, right? Or they wanna see their dogs having a good time. And it's like, yeah, it's, that's not what you're paying me for though. And it's like, it's not that we never do it, you know, sometimes dogs get to go on off-leash trips.

We get to go run the trails through the woods. We get to hang out with other dogs, right? There are a select few dogs that even get couch time in my house when they come to board.

It's not something we do a lot. But if it's a real small dog who behaves stellar and has no behavioral issues, they might get couch time, right? Um, lots of dogs get to hang out and play with my dogs. They get to go out in the yard and be off leash and Remy running through the puddles. I don't know if you follow my social media, you probably saw that. Um, but it's not what I'm paid for. It's not the priority when you send your dog for a board-and-train, especially, right? Your dog is here to learn.

And we devote our time and we prioritize learning, training, every interaction. We are highly attuned to how we're interacting with the dog, how your dog is responding, how we address their response. If it's not the response we want, that's what we're doing. We're not prioritizing exercise, we're not prioritizing play. Doesn't mean there isn't any, it's not the priority and it's not your dog's whole life, right? It's two or three weeks, sometimes four, but most programs are two or three weeks.

And so it's like, it's not gonna kill the dog to have two or three weeks where there's less fun and there's more learning, right? But then kind of the cool part is if they come back for boarding, uh, the training is in place already, right? And so then they do get to have a little more fun unless they're really high maintenance <laugh>, right? So they might have, uh, they might still be highly structured and, um, treated more like a trainee if that's what they need, right? But it just depends on the dog. But anyway, that's neither here nor there.

My point is, it's both. And you don't have to pick having a dog that loves you, having a dog that you're affectionate with, having fun with your dog or holding your dog accountable, having a dog that listens, having a dog that's reliable in any situation.

I'm here to tell you with most dogs, you can have all of that, but you have to be willing to do what it takes. And I was thinking about it today, and I was thinking about the dichotomy, um, and the incongruency between the corrections and the emotions, right? So it can be challenging for someone to give their dog a higher, firmer, more intense correction when they're not angry, right? But that's ideal. That's what we wanna do. We don't wanna be angry, we don't wanna be yelling, we don't want to be emotional. It should be neutral.

17:00 — Kati frames corrections as matter-of-fact responses to behavior rather than expressions of frustration or…

It should just be a matter of fact, right? This is what I have to do to change this behavior. That's all. Uh, we don't want you to be frustrated or angry, but it's weird and hard to do that at first. Um, so telling people, like, especially if they have a dog that's really insensitive, uh, to either the prong collar, like the leash pops or the e-collar corrections, even having to turn that number way up or having to give that super, super firm leash pop.

Um, like if you'd look at Fire Blazer who was just here, um, she went home about a week ago, maybe not even, but anyway, you could not leash pop that dog firm enough that she cared. Like it was so difficult, right? So to give a leash pop that firm and not be mad, it's very unnatural. It's very unnatural to physically deliver a correction like that when you're not mad. It takes practice, right? For me to just say no and then step in and give a super firm leash pop. But with practice, you get good at it.

And with some dogs, that's really important. So take the puppy I have here right now, um, Cora, physically, she's not actually that sensitive. Um, she's kind of obtuse and doofy <laugh>, right? And so she actually needs a pretty firm pop sometimes. But if I were to not be well practiced at it, my inclination when I know I'm gonna step in and do a real firm leash pop, my inclination might be to say no and then step in and give that firm leash pop. But I, I don't wanna do that.

If I did that, she'd probably pee herself, right? Because she's a little on the emotional, she's not physically sensitive, but she's emotionally sensitive. So I can give her a firm leash pop all day long, right? And it will affect her behavior, but it won't affect her emotional state. But if I yell at her, that will, that will make her nervous. And so there's a difference. And so I, you know, if you struggle with any of this stuff, it's like I want you to pay attention and acknowledge that there's a difference between being angry, frustrated, emotional, or threatening your dog or just issuing correction.

Because a proper correction is usually very neutral and unemotional, right? It's just a consequence. It's a physical, tangible consequence. It's not an emotional threat. It's not the release of anger or frustration. It's certainly not abuse, which is what everyone wants you to think. It's not, it's not any of that. And so you can be, okay, back to the topic here, which is you can have both. You can absolutely, in fact, you are more likely to have a dog that can have a good time, that can have fun, that can go places that you can give freedom to, right?

21:00 — Kati argues that unreliable obedience limits dogs' freedom and owners' ability to include them…

If you are willing to do what it takes to actually get them to listen to you.

But you are hampering your dog's freedom. You are hampering your ability to take them places and involve them in things. You are responsible for them running up to people, running up to dogs, not listening to you, not holding their down. You are responsible for those issues because maybe we're not willing to do what it takes. My preference, and what I love to see for my clients is when they have dogs that they absolutely stick to their guns and hold their dogs accountable for the things that they know. And not just somewhat, not just to a level where they have to watch and worry and monitor and nag, but they really, truly hold them accountable.

They really inhibit the breaking of a known command. And because of that, they can take their dog anywhere. They can have their dog off leash. They can trust their dog not to run up to people. They can trust their dog to come back when called. That's the best. And they can have their dog on the couch if they want to. They can have their dog in the bed if they want to.

They can give affection to their dog. You can do all those things. Your dog is still gonna love you. Your dog's gonna have an amazing life because they can do anything. Now, yeah, there are some dogs out there that will never be able to do all of that, that won't, won't be able to have that level of freedom. But those dogs are pretty rare. Those dogs are pretty rare. Most dogs can, but only if the human is willing to do what it takes, which is A, to train the dog, right? But then B, to really hold their paws to the fire and really hold them accountable in a way that matters.

You know? So if you're just holding your head above water, right? You're just keeping things under control enough, it's like, okay, some people choose to live that way with their dog, not me. I want the full Ben. Like, if I'm gonna do this training, I'm gonna do it right? I want the full benefits of it. It's so important to just nail it down, right? Nail it down. Because then, ironically, that's the key to freedom. My dog readjusting on his cot over there. I don't know if you can hear the cot squeaking <laugh>. Um, it is ironic because the key to being able to take your dog anywhere, to being able to trust them off leash, is holding them very highly accountable.

24:00 — Kati argues that consistent consequences accumulate across interactions and increase an owner's relevance rather…

And the thing is, guys, all of these things, they accumulate, there's a cumulative effect. And I think part of the issue is like in the back of people's minds, they think that cumulative effect is a negative one on their relationship, but it's not. Quite the opposite.

You become more relevant. You become, there's more gravity attached to the things that you say and instruct, right? Your dogs listen better. There's less wishy-washiness, there's less pushing boundaries. There's, which means then there's less frustration on your part. There's less panic, there's less. Again, you don't have to have part of your brain devoted all the time to watching the dog and nagging the dog, right? It just really makes everything easier. And with that pressure off, your relationship has room to get so much better. My dogs love me. I'll sit at home, BooBoo will put his head in my lap, and he'll sit there for an hour.

If I'll keep petting him, <laugh>, if, if I'll keep running my fingers along the top of his nose and his head and his ears, he'll sit there for hours, okay? And we can go off leash and I don't have to worry that he's not gonna come back. It doesn't matter what he sees. I call him, he'll come back. If I put him on place, he will stay there. It doesn't matter what happens, right? But that's not magic. It doesn't happen on its own.

It doesn't happen through nagging or through kind of sort of telling the dog sometimes. And the thing is, when you do that, it's not just that behavior that suffers, it's not just place. It's not just recall because it's all connected. Like I said, it's all cumulative, right? So this all goes into the file, it all goes into the big picture, right? And this view that your dog has of you, and the view isn't mean or not mean. The view is you mean it or you don't <laugh>. The view is I have to, or I don't have to.

So don't overcomplicate it. Don't clutter it up with all these emotional, theoretical concerns. It's all imaginary, guys. So yeah, of course you don't want to run around just correcting your dog randomly, turning that thing up and ringing it like a doorbell. Nobody's doing that. Nobody's doing that. The correction is tied to your dog's behavior. And actually, I did a follow-up yesterday with somebody, um, and her questions were, uh, really good questions. And I think some of them very, very common concerns that people have. One of which is, you know, if my dog breaks command or does something naughty, and I say no, you know, if I don't have the remote on me, it was like sometimes I let it go.

You know, because like, I don't know if she's gonna know what it, what the correction was for. And that's a mistake, a common mistake, right? So now she knows, but I said, think of it this way.

28:00 — Kati addresses owners' fears that dogs will not understand corrections, describing confusion as part…

Confusion is always part of the learning process. Is there a possibility that your dog won't know what the correction was for? Yeah, maybe, probably not, right? Once your dog has done a program here, they're pretty, they're usually pretty well versed in the fact that you're gonna hear the word no. And then there's gonna be a delay before you experience the correction. But let's just say that in that case, enough time went by, or because it was a different environment or whatever, they, they didn't connect it well. So what? It goes in the file still. So your job isn't to always make sure they understand. Your job is to keep the pattern the same.

So that ultimately, eventually in the end they understand, okay? So if you say, oh, well I don't know if she'll understand what it's for, so I'm not going to do it.

You've changed the pattern now. So now you've just entered into the pattern. Sometimes I say no, and there is no correction. So that's a huge mistake. And that will not make things better. It will not make things more clear, right? It will make things more unclear, more inconsistent, more unpredictable. So now you're creating the very thing you're worried about. The best thing you can do, if you want your dog to be certain about what's happening and why, is to keep your pattern 100% the same, right? So even if they don't get it in that moment, over time, they go, oh, hey, it's always the same.

It always comes, it always, always, always comes. When I hear the word no, it's coming, right? So your job in that moment is to not worry so much about whether or not they know. Your job in that moment is to worry about teaching them. This is the pattern.

Be consistent. But also if it's something your dog knows, guys, it's like be, don't just be consistent. Be meaningful. 'Cause here's the thing, if you are not, then you're going to have to do it all the time. And so then you end up in this position where you have to be consistent. Consistent, right? Every day, every day, every day, every day, every week, every month, every year for the rest of your dog's life. And nobody's going to do that because it's exhausting. So eventually you need the behavior to change. And it won't do that if you don't provide a catalyst for that to happen.

So again, it's like you can stay stuck in this place where you just grab the remote and you just tap it on those single digits, right? Where you turn it up a little bit, but you're like biting your nails because you've never been above this number. And it's like, or you're using the level that's just enough to get your dog to stop jumping in the moment. And it's like, okay, but your head is barely above water and you're gonna stay there treading water for the rest of your dog's life. And everything is going to be harder.

Everything is gonna be more chaotic. Everything is going to require a larger portion of your brain. So you can't be fully present with whatever else it is you're doing or whoever else you're with. Um, and you're gonna be torturing yourself forever with pushing that button, right? Because you're going to have to constantly, because it's too low, <laugh>. So, and I'm not saying this is always the problem, right? There are some things that are more complicated than that, but we see this so, so often, um, that it's worth talking about.

This is by far, and probably half the people listening to this episode have already tuned out. But that's a mistake. <laugh>, that's a mistake. Because I know from talking to people, guys, that 99% of the people we help, there's at least a period of time where they're stuck in this place because you're human and because you worry and because you don't know and you haven't done it thousands of times and you're not an expert, right? Because that's why I do this, is so right now, you know, right? You can, you don't have to worry about all of these human things, right?

33:00 — Kati addresses fears that corrections will cause dogs to hate their owners or damage…

You're, you're worried your dog's gonna hate you, you're gonna damage your relationship. Your dog's confused. They're not gonna understand, okay? The best thing you can do for your dog, for you, for your relationship, um, for your dog's learning and the sake of consistency is to be consistent and meaningful.

And for the love of God, if you know your dog knows something, then hold them accountable like they know it. Not to be mean. Not because you are mad, just to fix it, just to make things better, right? So give yourself a reprieve, right? Because I couldn't do it. I couldn't go through my whole, like if I wanna bring my dogs to work, which I'm lucky I can, right? And we have a lot of customers who are lucky enough, they can bring their dogs to work with them, right? But how are you supposed to be present in your job if you're constantly, where's the remote?

Gotta watch the dog. Where's the remote? Gotta watch the dog. Where's the remote? Gotta up, up, up. You can't, you can't go through your day like that.

And with most things, once your dog knows that it's a real meaningful consequence, they just change their behavior, guys. And then when it's time, you can reward the dog. You can shower them with affection and praise. You can go play Chuckit, throw the ball, what whatever it, it's, right? And you can have both a dog that listens like stellar, like listens really, really well, like fancy listens. It's not that hard. And a dog that you have an amazing relationship with that you can enjoy, that you can have a good time with. Both, guys. Both.

You're not choosing one or the other, I promise you, <laugh>.

Um, but it is difficult to, like, deliver meaningful consequences when you're not angry or frustrated. And it just takes practice. It just takes practice. So I want you to practice saying no in a very neutral way, right? It says no. And then, then turn your remote up. Push the button when it's warranted, right? Whenever your dog does the thing it is that they do that they're not supposed to do. And I'm sure you know what that is. I don't know what it is. You know what it is, right? <laugh>, they've all got their things. Um, yeah.

And that is, that really is the key. And I, you know, I talk about this because, like, when we do follow-ups, this is our follow-up. This is what our follow-up sounds like most of the time. So what I always say is people get really, really good at getting behaviors and sort of interrupting behaviors, right?

And, and gaining a much better sense of control with their e-collar, with their remote. And that's a good thing. Like, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but the reason we really wanna see people back for their follow-up appointment is because we want to make sure that you're not staying stuck in that place where your head is just above water and you have some semblance of control, right? But things are still kind of at a simmer. We wanna make sure that, hey, if your dog was here and they spent three weeks, four weeks, like holding place, walking in a heel, holding a down, then you shouldn't be at home nagging them to stay on place, nagging them to walk in a heel, nagging them to come back when called.

37:00 — Kati says owners need to give their commands the same gravity established during the…

Right? You should be going home and instead attaching that same level of gravity to you and your commands that we did when your dog was here.

Because otherwise it's like, yeah, the training is helpful, but you're not actually getting, you're not reaping the full benefit of it. 'Cause you have to hang on to that remote, like a fricking Life Alert device. And your brain has to constantly be scanning for threats, right? Is my dog doing what they're supposed to be doing? Are they thinking about getting up? Are they, we want everybody, our customers or otherwise, we want everybody to reap the full benefits of a trained dog. If your dog knows, then they know, right? And usually the thing that's missing is just that accountability.

Now, if your dog doesn't know, they don't know, right? You need to go back. You need to do the training. And so we can't tell you that only, only, you know, depends on what you've done with your dog and how much you've done.

Um, but certainly dogs that have been through our programs, they know, they know these things, right? But they know them with us. And what happens when they go home, we can't control. Um, that accountability piece is always what's missing, guys. It's always what's missing. And you know, again, I talk about it. I decided to talk about it today because it's garnered so much negative attention on social media. Uh, granted it was a puppy, but nonetheless, it doesn't matter. Um, and honestly, in the video, I wasn't even talking about punishment. I was just talking about a prong collar and using it as a communication device and leash pressure and asking the puppy to move forward when she was uncomfortable moving forward, right?

And she had a very independent, strong-willed nature, and she wanted to go do her own thing where she, she was afraid to go down the stairs and she would be vocal, right? On the first day. On the second day, guess what? Flying down the stairs.

And if I didn't think she could do them, then we wouldn't have done them, right? If I didn't think it was safe or she wasn't physically big enough, she didn't have to do them, but she was, and she was flying up, right? So it wasn't the stairs, this is going down, made her nervous. So what did we do? We got her over it. So we literally made the puppy more confident over the course of a couple of days. So on day one, she saw a thing and it was terrifying. On day three, she saw a thing and it wasn't an obstacle at all.

40:00 — Kati rejects accusations of abuse and asserts that aversive control is necessary in dog…

If you can see that and think that that's abusive, there's something wrong with you, okay? Not me. There's something wrong with you. And yes, there is something wrong with these people. Uh, aversive control, which is mostly what we've been talking about on this episode, is 1000% necessary in dog training. There is no exception, and there aren't many things I'll say that about. There's no exception. So aversive control doesn't always necessarily have to be an e-collar, but that is far and away the most practical means of aversive control. We also do a lot of other things with it, right?

We can help dogs settle, we can give them little reminders, we can get their attention, uh, but we can also provide real tangible corrections that matter.

And an e-collar is the easiest, most efficient, effective, and safest way to do that in most cases. And there might be some other ways, um, that are even more effective and efficient when we're dealing with things like reactivity or aggression. Um, but that's neither here nor there. The e-collar far and away has been an absolutely lifesaving game changer for our customers. Um, and you know, I, one of the things that I, I love so much about it is it is so easy and it can be so neutral and unemotional, right? If you are neutral and unemotional and you're just pushing a button, right?

And it's, it's a correction, and it might be uncomfortable sometimes. It might be really uncomfortable sometimes, but it's not emotional. You're not mad, guys. You don't have to be mad.

And the word punishment has become synonymous with abuse, and it is not. I actually got into an argument about this with a customer the other day, um, <laugh> then not really an argument, but I, I just disagreed with something he said and that kind of upset him. So I'd be more careful moving forward. But point is, um, you know, his point was, and he was right, his point was that punishment doesn't mean you're being mean. It doesn't mean that you're mad. It doesn't mean that you're harming the dog. And that is true, and I should have left it at that <laugh>.

That is true. Um, but also his point was that what we were doing wasn't punishment because punishment meant those things. And so I get very passionate about all that stuff. And so I had to pipe up and say, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what punishment is, right? Because that's the problem today. The word punishment has been stolen. And people want you to think that that's what punishment means. That it means abuse, that it means you're mean, that it means you're violent, that it means you harm the dog. It doesn't mean any of those things.

It literally means you stop a behavior. That's all it means.

So if you have a dog that doesn't like to be pet on the head, and every time they come over to you, you pet them on the head so they stop coming over to you, guess what? You just punished the behavior of coming over to you. That's what punishment is, guys. It just reduces and eliminates behavior. Doesn't mean you're mad, doesn't mean you're angry, doesn't mean you're violent, doesn't mean you're taking out your frustration on the dog. Doesn't mean you're hurting or harming the dog. It doesn't mean those things. It means you're stopping a behavior.

44:00 — Kati says punishment can take different forms depending on the dog, including a loud…

And so, yes, it is a hundred percent necessary. If someone says to me, "How do I stop my dog from…" there is no question. It is with punishment. What that punishment looks like can vary wildly from dog to dog. For some dogs it might just be a loud noise. I don't use that, but it could be, right? It could be a gentle leash pop, it could be a very firm leash pop. It could be a high e-collar correction, it could be a really high e-collar correction. So yes, it varies a lot from dog to dog to dog because all dogs care about different things.

They have different sensitivity levels, they have different motivations. But what's true for all of them is it's punishment.

Because that is the meaning, that is the definition of punishment. Stop a behavior. So these folks that are like to shove treats in the dog's mouth, treats in the dog's mouth, it's like, you know what, that's fine if it works, and it would be a punishment if it works, but it doesn't <laugh>, it doesn't. Even if you can kind of get something to work on the short term, it's not going to stick. I promise it's not gonna stick. And that's that, guys. It's like both. And I want you to have a dog that you love immensely.

I want you to have a dog that you can shower with affection when it's appropriate. <laugh> I want you to have a dog that you can have on the furniture if that's what you want. I want you to have a dog that you can take out for endless off-leash fun.

Take swimming, take camping, um, go to the park, throw the ball around, um, walk the trails. Whatever it is you love to do, I want you to have a dog that you can just lay there on a rainy day and enjoy their company. I, I want those things for you. And I want you to have a dog that when you tell them to come back, they spin around on a dime and they come back. I want you to have a dog that when you put them on place and guests are coming through your door, they don't budge.

I want you to have, oh, hey, guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time.