Why Your Dog “Can’t Recall” How To Recall

00:00 — Kati introduces Diamond Canine’s e-collar training, off-leash obedience, reliability, and behavior modification services.

Hey everybody. Thanks for joining me today. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training for off leash obedience and reliability and behavior modification, helping people stop all of those pesky, unwanted behaviors, jumping, barking, counter surfing, and more challenging things like aggression, resource guarding, separation, anxiety, reactivity, all that stuff. And we do puppy training. That's who we are and what we do. And this podcast's, my way of sharing all of this stuff with you guys. So, <laugh>, if I sound a little off, it's because I am <laugh>.

Uh, first of all, I know it probably sounds like the podcast is going backwards and you're like, what the hell is going on? Well, we're getting back on track, but it did go backwards a little bit. Um, you know, my laptop broke and then there were a series of other unfortunate events and life just went totally off the rails.

And so this is just my little patchwork of getting life back together, back on track. Um, we'll be back to normal soon, I promise. And hopefully better than normal, than however I've already recorded this episode once <laugh>, and the quality of the recording was so poor, um, that I couldn't use it. So at least the first 37 minutes, this was a long one. It was a long recording, and the first 37 minutes were just complete garbage. Um, and I don't know why <laugh>, so, and most people probably aren't going to be able to relate to this, but talking about something for an hour and then having to start over talking about it is hard.

<laugh>, it's really, really hard, you guys. I don't have enough coffee. Um, but here we go. I'm gonna try to be just as passionate about it, <laugh> the second time around. Um, so yeah, let's just dig in, shall we?

It'll remind myself it's the second time I've said it, but it's the first time you've heard it. So, um, we're talking about recall today because man recall is important. And, uh, you know, this stuff that we're gonna talk about, it applies to any command really. But, uh, recall specifically is where we're focusing. I recently had a call with a customer about a recall issue, which I'm gonna talk about in the second part of this recording, so you'll hear that a little bit later. Um, but I wanted to start out by just talking about the dogs that really are, are pretty good.

Um, you, you know, they don't present with any serious behavioral issues and they mostly listen, but maybe you find yourself kind of in the nag zone with recall sometimes, and you're having to just tap that remote all the time, like every time you call them.

03:00 — Repeatedly tapping the remote during recalls places owners in a nagging cycle.

And you're having to look for the number. And you know, if you're falling into that place, which we often call the nag zone, um, this first part of the podcast really is for you. Um, and if you find yourself, it's more just your dog is really challenging. Like, you, you think you are doing all the right things and you're holding your dog highly accountable and all this stuff, but your dog just has this high, high prey drive tunnel vision, you know, they listened well, but then all of a sudden it's like a switch flips and things become very challenging and you lose control of the situation.

Um, I would still encourage you to listen to the whole thing. I think first of all, you may categorize yourself there, and that might not really be where you belong. Um, but also the first part of this episode really applies to everyone, but there will be some even more valuable information for you if you do have a dog like that in the second half of the podcast.

So, anyways, without further ado, let's just kind of get down to business. Um, when it comes to recall, you know, just like anything else, if you want your dog, and we consider recall to be one of the most difficult of all the commands, right? Because your dog tends to be at a distance from you, they tend to be further away, which that alone makes things harder. Um, they often are in a new environment, which, you know, having novel stimuli will make things harder. There tend to be distractions around in sight and smells and sounds, um, which will make things harder.

So, recall tends to be one of the most challenging of all the things we're gonna ask our dogs to do. And that's why it's so, so, so important that you tie accountability to it. Guys, it's really, really important. Just like any command if, if you want it to become reliable, your dog has to believe that there's real accountability for it.

So that's gonna be step number one. And the way we do that, you have to put your dog on the long line. I don't care how frequently you've been taking them off leash, how comfortable you are doing it. If you're experiencing scenarios where you have to nag your dog, they're not ready to be off leash, okay? So put your dog on the long line. And really, that's the first step to all of this is like your dog does not get off leash freedom until you are comfortable and confident you have control. So with a leash, you control them physically, right?

You're managing them. But if you're gonna take that leash off, you have to have control of that brain, and you either do or you don't. So if you're experiencing scenarios where you don't, that leash stays on. Okay? That's so, so important, uh, for safety's sake and for training's sake.

Um, yeah, your dog being in the nag zone, like that counts if you have to nag your dog, keep them on the long line. You know, I've talked about this before, but I remember going to the park, uh, to ride bikes with my husband and my daughter and just, I saw dogs there with ecos on, and they still just were running up to people, accosting people, um, quote unquote friendly, right? But doesn't matter. But things can change in an instant too, as a side note. But I saw people, I saw one woman calling her dog back.

The dog started to respond. She immediately began to brag about her dog's recall. And then the dog promptly turned around, said, fuck you. And <laugh> ran up to the woman and was, you know, like jumping on her and sticking, or no, was in her crotch and everything else.

And it's just not okay. Even if your dog is quote unquote friendly, it's not okay. Not everyone wants to meet your dog. They shouldn't have to meet your dog. Your dog should not be physically touching people getting in their bubble. It just, it's just not okay. Like, you should be able to control your dog without a leash. And if you can't, then they should be on a leash, okay? And I think oftentimes this stems from, 'cause tons of people when we meet them, they're taking their dog off leash even though their dog's not reliable and they know their dog's not reliable.

07:00 — Owners must prevent dogs from entering strangers’ personal space, even when dogs are off…

It's why they're here, right? But everyone's got this. Oh, they listen good. Unless, until except, and it's like, okay, but if you have to make those qualifications, if you have those exceptions, then, then your dog is not trained and you're not confident and your dog isn't safe.

And you, you shouldn't do that. You should absolutely keep your dog on a leash. Please, please don't take the leash off if you don't have control of your dog's brain. And I rarely will say, please do this, or Please don't do that, because I find it condescending in most contexts. I don't think it kind of, it makes people sound like they think they have authority over you. Um, especially in regards to, you know, if someone's asking for advice and you tell them, please do this or that, um, I absolutely adore that. I don't like it.

Um, but in this context, I will do it because I think it is appropriate. Your dog should not be running up to people. Um, not me, not anybody else. So, um, because this is just a viol, it's a violation of rights. Like to have your dog charging up to strangers, people that you don't know getting in their space, doesn't matter what their intent is, it's just not ever, okay.

Um, and accidents happen sometimes and I'm, I'm not saying everyone should be perfect all the time, but if you know that your dog does this and you can't control them, that's really just not acceptable. So, you know, hopefully you're not one of those people. But if you are, rethink that, 'cause I think it comes from a place of guilt where our dogs are concerned. Oftentimes I think we feel a deep sense of obligation to let our dogs run and take them off leash and get them their exercise and, you know, quote unquote get their energy out.

Um, but that is a lie. You are telling yourself, yes, of course we want our dogs to get exercise. Yes, of course we would love to let our dogs run, but if it isn't safe, then you can't and you shouldn't. And guess what? Your dog will live.

And so you can find other ways, right? Um, if you can find a place that's fenced in, uh, where there's no one else around or, you know, worst case scenario, put your dog on a 20 foot line or even a 50 foot line so that you have a physical means of control. Because you have to be able to either physically manage your dog or mentally have control of them, right? If you don't, then you cannot let your dog run. Now, what if your dog tore a ligament, right? They wouldn't be able to run for eight weeks, 10 weeks, something crazy like that.

And we would all understand that and we would agree that it's in the dog's best interest. Um, but for some reason, having to keep our dog on a leash for a week, two weeks, even a month, or however long it takes until their training is in place, just seems like unreasonable, unimaginable, right? Which is silly.

So stop viewing this freedom as something your dog has a right to something that you're obligated to give them and start viewing it as something you cannot give them until they're totally trustworthy and you're comfortable and confident with how to control their behavior. Um, I think that's huge, huge, huge, huge. So get your dog on the long line if they're not a hundred percent. Um, and you can usually get there quickly, right? So this episode is mostly aimed at people who have done the training with their dogs, but they're still experiencing some issues in certain contexts or things have unraveled a little bit.

11:00 — Dogs with recall problems should return to the long line while owners rebuild reliability.

Um, this is gonna help you get it all cleaned back up. Or, you know, folks that have done training themselves. Um, but you know, and they know that their dog knows what to do, but they just can't seem to get over that hump where they get their dog to just do it reliably all the time.

Um, and stop nagging like this episode is, is for you folks. Um, and then of course the really drive you dogs that just get that tunnel vision. We're gonna talk about that a little bit later, but so dog on the long line guys, okay? That's step number one. And they stay there until you're good and you know you're good. And then <laugh>, then you can take it off, right? So if you put the wagon before the horse, you will struggle. Okay? Now, now that your dog is back on the long line, tie that accountability to your recall.

How do you do that? Well, you're gonna provide a very high consequence for not coming back when calls. So it's pretty simple, right? Sounds pretty simple. Um, yeah, here we are 'cause people struggle with it. Um, now what this looks like will be a little different for every dog.

And again, this is for dogs that no, what's expected, right? So there's two things that need to be in place to have a good recall or any command, right? Take a pick. The dog has to know the behavior. They have to know how to do the behavior, and they have to know what command or cue should trigger that behavior. So, so they have to know how to do the thing you want, and they have to know that they're supposed to do that thing when you give a certain cue. So you have to teach your dog that.

And that's a process. And we're not covering that today. That should already be done.

So in other words, you say, you know, rufuss come or here, or maybe you don't say any of that. Maybe you just beep the collar. Whatever it is you do that tells your dog to come to you, that should already be established. Your dog knows the behavior, they know the command, and they know when they hear the command that you expect that behavior that should already be out of the way. Now, once you have that, the second piece of the training is there's real accountability if you don't do it right? So now it's an expectation and there's an intolerable consequence if you choose not to do it.

That's the piece everyone fails at, right? Because it's not fun <laugh>, right? So the initial part of the process where we're teaching the behavior and we're attaching that behavior to the word, and we're doing lots of repetition with food and praise and affection, that part's fun, right? And we do tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of it. But ultimately that isn't enough, guys. You have to graduate from kindergarten at some point your dog does. We have to move in to that second phase of training where it's like, okay, now it's expected and it's gonna suck if you don't listen.

And if you don't do that, then it just won't be reliable. So if you're struggling with your dog, assuming that first piece is nailed down, right? And if it's not, maybe you have to revisit that and that's fine. But if that first piece is nailed down, it's that second piece you need help with, right?

So with your dog on the line, you're gonna call your dog the second they hesitate, you're gonna provide a very high consequence. Most of the people listening to this probably have an eco that is the easiest way to provide a high consequence. How high, higher than what you're thinking <laugh>, right? Because the goal here is to create change. It's not to keep doing the same thing we've been doing. It's not to find the level your dog feels. It's not even to find the level that motivates your dog. We've already done all of that, right? We're talking about cleaning things up with a dog that's already been trained.

15:00 — Kati recommends a significantly higher consequence for ignored recalls, commonly delivered through an e-collar.

So you are gonna provide a consequence that's probably 2, 3, 4 times what you're thinking in your head, right? Because I want you to be clear, I want you to actually send the memo home. I want your dog to actually get the message. And a lot of people make the unfortunate mistake of creating a very great experience for their dog. You've probably heard me say that before, where it's like our levels are just always kind of middle of the road. Like a lot of people even lock the remotes on a certain number. That's garbage. Don't do that.

You are shooting yourself in the foot. So we use very, very low reminders to help our dogs settle, to remind them to maybe put their head down or to like lay down when they're in the crate, if they're just a little too escalated or maybe to stop tracking things when they're on place. You know, things like that. Gentle reminders. And then we have times where we're saying, I never wanna see that again. And that level is, you know, 20 times that level, right? We might be on a four or a six, depends on the dog, of course, I'm just pulling numbers out of a hat.

But it might be like a whisper, whisper, whisper, just helping the dog settle. Or it might be, you know, 86, don't ever do that again.

So whatever it looks like for your dog, 'cause they're all very different, we want you to use something very meaningful. So call your dog in the moment they hesitate, provide that very meaningful consequence. And now you've got your dog on a long line so that if they do have a little freak out for any reason, right? And they shouldn't. If your dog's already been trained, if they're already familiar with the e-collar, if they've been properly patterned, they shouldn't, but have them on the long line in case, especially if you haven't been providing high accountability for things they might be surprised by that you don't know.

So we always recommend the long line while you're establishing this accountability, right? And you provide that high consequence. And then if your dog does need, need some help coming back to you, you've got that line on, you can tug it, you can give them some guidance, right?

And they come back to you and you have a little party with your dog. All the affections, all the loves, do all the things. Um, because we want to create contrast and we want to create patterns. And we want that pattern to be, Hey, my, my recall carries real accountability. My recall can knock your socks off it. Absolutely, and it will suck, but my recall can also be great, right? And that's gonna be up to you, dog. When I call you, you come back, we'll have a little party. And you don't have to do that forever, right?

Things can just become a little more neutral and, and natural and normal. And you don't have to. But like, when you're trying to clean things up, when you're trying to create change, go a little off the deep end on both ends, positive and negative, right? So you can create that real stark contrast, high consequence little party. And then you also become the safe place, right? So your dog learns, they're away from you, you recall them, that's dangerous unless they come back to you. And then it's amazing, right? So you become the safe place.

19:00 — Pair accountability with affection so returning to the owner becomes both necessary and rewarding.

Um, really, really important. So when people go home, people don't really go home. The dogs go home from a board and train, right? But they go home with their people. Um, we instruct people to bring their dog out on a long line and attach that accountability to their recall because we can't do that for them. Like, there is nothing I can do in a board and train or any format that's going to teach that dog that somebody else's recall carries accountability. Can't do it. It's an impossibility. They have to do it themselves. And so we send them home with very explicit instructions to put their dog on the long line, again, for safety and for patterning sake, and to go home and call their dog and just correct them.

And people go, wait, what? That sounds mean. And it's like, I get it. But you have a very 2D view of training. Very two dimensional view of what's happening. So we do different things for different reasons. And this is just another tool that we're putting in your tool chest. That is the point. It's not something you're gonna do over and over and over again. But once or twice we want you to go home, go outside with your dog on the long line. And when they're sniffing around and things are calm, calm, there's not much going on.

We want you to call your dog and then immediately provide a high correction.

Why? Just to tie gravity to your recall. 'cause it has to be done at some point. And we, we don't wanna wait until the dog sees a trigger and then it's much, much more difficult or, uh, you don't have the long line on. And if that's the first time your dog experiences real accountability with you, what if it goes sideways? You now have no control. So the smart thing to do is to see what that looks like with the long line on and to do it when things are calm, because then it's going to create a real lasting memory for your dog, which then works in your favor in the future, right?

So the thing that's hard to explain to people is if you wait until your dog sees another dog or person or whatever, and they're all excited, things don't land the same way. They don't feel them the same way. They don't internalize them the same way. You're not getting the same thing when that happens. Don't wait until that happens to try to have your first learning experience for the dog. Do it when things are calm and easy. It's gonna make it easier for you. It's gonna make it easier and more clear for them. So you're just using that moment to use a tool to create a memory that's going to become part of a long lasting pattern that creates safety for you and your dog.

So we do, we tell everyone, go home. And when things are calm and you've got your dog outside on the long line, not a lot going on, go ahead and call your dog. Provide a high correction, not over and over again, just once or twice, right? And you have to evaluate your dog's reaction in that moment. We want it to be kind of like a holy crap moment, right? Just for a moment. And then they come back to you and you have a party, right? And you've got them on the line in case they do need some help, they come back to you and you all the loves, all the affection, all the things.

Do it. Great. Yes, we're trying. We wanna have a moment in time with our dogs where we solidify both of these things that my recall has immense gravity that you didn't know it had.

And also that I am your safe place and it is Disney World when you're with me, okay? Both things. That is how you create the most reliable recall, the strongest impression that stark contrast high gravity recall with tons of immense accountability. And I am your safe place and I am fun and affectionate, and I praise you and I feed you whatever the things are that your dog values, okay? And the thing is, you don't have to do this stuff all the time forever. We're talking about creating a unique moment, a unique experience that actually means something, right?

23:00 — A stark correction followed by celebration teaches both consequence and reward contrast.

It's not something you do over and over again forever when we're talking about training. None of that stuff is stuff you should have to do over and over and over again forever, right? It's what it looks like in the moment.

It might be something you have to do a few times. It might be something you have to make some adjustments, right? But then the change should be made and you should be set off on a different path where things look closer to what you want. If you have to do it every time, every time, every time, every time, every time, then that's not training. That's standing still. Ultimately, where our recall should land is that you call the dog and they come back, you call them. Once they come back, you can say good, and then you can move on and release them or leash them up or whatever.

It's you have to do, and that's it, right? But in that training process, especially if we're trying to clean things up, you gotta pull that contrast back in and you gotta make sure you've got both ends, okay?

And the hard part to explain about that to people is if you wait until your dog sees the dog, the bird, the person, whatever it is that gets them all excited and they wanna go up and say hi or whatever the case may be, if you wait until that moment to try to do this, you might fail miserably, right? That's like worst case scenario and everything just gets away from you. Or you might get your dog back, but you're not creating the moment we wanna create. You're not creating the memory we wanna create. You're not creating the pattern we wanna create.

It's, it's going to be something different. Because when your dog is excited, nothing hits the same. They don't feel it the same, they don't remember it the same, they don't internalize it the same, they don't respond the same. Your number's gonna need to be higher and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. List goes on. That is not what we're trying to do. So I mean, yes, if your dog gets excited and blows you off, you're going to use your e-collar to get them back, of course. But if you create that moment in advance when things are calm and you do it properly and meaningfully, chances are when your dog sees the bird, the person, the squirrel, the dog, whatever, it's just not gonna be a problem.

Now, which one do you prefer? <laugh>.

Right? Because what's gonna happen is you create that memory when things are quiet and calm, and then when your dog sees the thing that gets them excited, that memory is still in there. So when you call them, they're gonna pull up that memory most likely if you did a good job making it a meaningful memory, okay? Most people don't, just to be honest, because they're afraid to, right? But that is a valuable tool and it can save your dog's life. Make no mistake about it. The more seriously your dog takes, your recall, the better they're gonna listen to it.

27:00 — Consistent e-collar use can make recall reliable enough that the device becomes a safety…

Right? And they don't know if it's an emergency situation. Every situation is the same to them.

So if you wait until it's an emergency situation, guys, that's too late. That's too late. You have to have the gall to do it Now, <laugh>. So, so once or twice you go out, you connect that very high consequence to your recall, and then hopefully that's it. And what will happen is you'll just have a dog that when they hear you recall them, they'll remember and they'll just come back, right? And it's not gonna be a hundred percent perfect. Your dog's not gonna be a robot. That's not how behavior works. It does wiggle, it does change.

Things pop up suddenly. Um, so you'll have your eco there as a safety net, but you probably won't need it, right? Because your dog now just believes, I gotta go back when I'm called. Right? And that's what we all want. Nobody wants to have to push buttons all the time to get their dog to do things or to come back.

I wouldn't either, right? And I may say this again later, I can't remember because I have the second half of this podcast already recorded <laugh> because my equipment did something funky. But my dogs, he'll just spin around and come back. Doesn't matter what he sees, right? And he's, he just turned six. Um, but he wore his eco all the time for probably a year and a half, maybe two years. And I sent that memo home to him, and I would do it again, right? If I, he wears his e-collar most of the time, he doesn't have it on all the time.

Um, but I like it to be on, right? Just in case. It's what we're talking about. It's like you never know what your dog is gonna do. It's, it's good to have it on. Um, but I don't use it that often, right? But let's just say for whatever reason, I let him out this afternoon and I call him and he is like, ah, I'm sniffing this trash can, or I see a skunk over there, or whatever the case may be. I'm not gonna tap at a 15 guys.

I'm gonna be up at the top of the dial. Why? Because he knows what he's supposed to do. And I now am left with two choices I can provide a and I'm not mad, I just know how behavior works. I can provide a consequence that makes it much less likely in the future. He's gonna do that again, plain and simple. Or I can provide a consequence that barely taps him on the shoulder, that barely gets his attention, that barely convinces him he should come back. And maybe I have to turn it up 2, 3, 4 times before I even get him to come back.

And we can go through that nagging process and then we can do it again next time and next time and next time. And then when he sees something that's really interesting, he just gives me the finger and takes off because that's the relationship I've built. And that's the pattern we've set. I don't wanna do that. It's that simple. I don't, that's not what I want, right? So none of this is about being a bully or being mean. It's about, hey, here's how behavior works. Here's the pattern I'd like to set. Here's the level of safety I'd like to obtain.

And that's that No

Dakota deciding to pipe up for some reason. Um, but that's a pattern you want to initially establish with your dog on a long line so you can ensure their safety. So you can ensure the pattern of your outcome that they come back to you, um, get that done. And then for the folks that have the really drivey dogs, uh, we're gonna talk about that next. Um, but the other piece I will say is make sure you're holding your dog accountable for things even in your house. Um, because if you don't mean what you say, you know, in the house, then like, forget it, outside the house guys where it's harder.

31:00 — Owners should establish the recall pattern on a long line before addressing highly driven…

Like make sure you're enforcing the things you ask for from your dog. If you ask them to heal and force the heal, if you ask them to place enforce the place, um, because you just can't have it both ways and then say, oh, my dog won't come back when calls. It's like, well, they never do anything you ask them to do, or they don't do it for very long, right? So you have to make sure, so you're literally on training your dog, you're, you're teaching them that your words are meaningless. So again, like your dog, well always tell the truth like they don't know anything else.

They will always respond to whatever you have taught them, whatever pattern you have set, whatever consequences you have provided. Um, they just don't know how to do anything else.

So if you teach them, this is what place means, and you teach them, this is what heal means, but then you say place and they don't do it, and you let it go because it doesn't matter to you in the moment. Well, well now they learned this is what this thing means, but I don't have to do it. This is what this thing means, but I don't have to do it. This is what that thing means, but I don't have to do it or I only have to do it for a minute, right? And so of course that bleeds into everything.

So make sure you know, if you, I'm not saying you have to do these things all the time, right? But if you ask for them, follow through and be consistent and do them and hold your dog accountable for them. Because if you don't, you teach your dog, my words are meaningless.

The commands we learned are meaningless, right? So you are creating the inconsistency, the instability, the unpredictability, it's creating chaos. We're gonna talk more about that in a minute here. Um, going into talking about the dogs that are more drivey and get that sudden tunnel vision and people lose it. So let's talk about that next. So I'm gonna go ahead and say for those folks, all the stuff we just talked about applies to you too. You should still do that stuff. You should put your dog back on the line. You should not be giving them freedom until you feel you can trust.

And you should be making sure you've tied that high level of accountability to your recall. Which by the way, I just wanna circle back to that real quick. When we send dogs home from a board and train, we do tell people to go home and tie that high correction to their recall.

34:00 — A beep becomes effective when the dog has learned that it consistently carries meaningful…

Um, but here's the thing, A lot of people will end up using that beep recall with the tone on the dog's collar. Uh, and the reason that that works better for them is because we tied accountability to that, right? So when the dog's here, we beep their collar, there's high accountability tied to that beep. If they don't come back on call and they know that, and when they go home, that beep still sounds the same and still carries that same association at least until they undo it, right? And so the dog tends to respond really well to that.

However, they won't respond as well to their owner's recall. And the reason being is because we can't do anything about that. We cannot tie accountability to somebody else's voice. They have to do it right? But that beep sounds the same across the board. It's uniform for everyone.

And so at least for a little while, it's going to carry that same accountability, right? So the dog has learned that that beep carries accountability in every environment and when they go home, that doesn't change right away. People can change it over time, certainly. Um, but we just hear that story over and over again that the dog responds better to the beep. And that is why, right? So if you want the dog to respond that promptly with that sense of urgency to your verbal recall, with your voice, with you personally, you have to tie that accountability to your recall.

No one else can do that.

Um, so do all those things, right? But if you've got a drivey dog that you feel you suddenly lose control of the situation, I'm gonna say a few things. Excuse me. So first of all, if you have a nutty dog that's really, really that drive and intense, especially if you have like a working dog, a lot of like shepherds, malis, a lot of those dogs, um, their drive can be so intense that they actually need two ecos. We call that double boxing. Again, this is a thing that's pretty rare, but it has been known to happen.

Um, I've had a couple of dogs, a couple of dogs. So I, you know, I would say I've had a couple that probably should be double boxed, but aren't. And, um, I had one dog that actually was a lab that needed to be double boxed just for a little while when he was in his kennel because we just could not shut him up in his kennel.

Um, weren't asking for anything fancy, just wanted him to be quiet. And this isn't a dog that either was like afraid or, or fearful of the kennel and had like extreme anxiety. He was just having a fit, just wanted to come out just being a rambunctious lab. Um, and the e-collar, uh, he just brushed it off even on a hundred, didn't care, hardly flinched and just kept woo woo, woo woo, woo woo. Um, but, you know, we put two ecos on him. We actually got him to settle down and, uh, we only needed that for maybe a couple days.

And then ever since then, he's been on one collar and he's been fine. But I, one word of caution like that, again, that's rare, that's one dog I'm talking about in my entire career. But I will say, if you need two collars on your dog in any situation, you have to keep in mind that even if you overcome that situation and things get better and you don't need two collars anymore, your dog is still the same dog. And so you may very well encounter another situation like that spontaneously that you didn't expect an unrelated situation.

And so here's kind of what I mean by that. The dog I'm talking about, although he doesn't need two collars anymore in his crate, he goes in there and he's very good. And if every once in a while he decides he's gonna pipe up, we can just tap on his e-collar and and shuts him right off, he's fine. He settles right down. He is great.

There was a time, and this was off leash where his owner had him off leash on a trail in the woods. And a very unfortunate thing happened where four unruly off leash dogs charged at him. And who knows what would've happened? Um, this freaked him out. He ran and she couldn't get him back. Now, she did eventually find him, but it took a long time. He did not come back, uh, when called, he did not come back even with the eco. And so that's a perfect example. Even though this dog was great in pretty much every aspect and had been recalling wonderfully, a situation did eventually formulate where that level of intensity kicked back in.

39:00 — A dog’s intense drive can override even high e-collar levels when the environment becomes…

And he said, holy crap. And he went to a level 12, right? Of 10 <laugh>. 12 of 10, and the a hundred on the eco didn't matter and he left.

Now with most dogs, most properly trained dogs, that's not gonna happen, right? But the word of caution here is if you have a dog who has exhibited that level of intensity before, they have needed that level of intensity from an eco before, that's like double. Even if you overcome that in that context, that doesn't mean you're not gonna see it again in a different context, right? An off leash is the time you have to think about that because you don't know what's gonna happen. We don't live in a Skinner box. It's not a controlled environment.

You cannot control the environment. You cannot control reality. You do not know what's gonna happen. And so in my mind, if you know your dog is sometimes very high on that dial and in the past has even needed two collars, then just put 'em on. Just have two collars on guys.

Like, it's not the end of the world. You can usually put them both on one strap if you want to. And oftentimes what will happen if you do that is the numbers you're using most of the time will just be much, much lower, right? Because you had now have two receivers, so double the stimulation, you don't need the numbers to be as high, they're just much lower, right? But in the event something actually goes off a cliff and go sideways, you have the power in your hands if you need it. And I don't know, I mean, in this case it might be a good thing he didn't come back because she couldn't have controlled those other four dogs.

And the truth is, she couldn't have protected him from those other four dogs short of having a gun on her. And I'm sure she didn't.

Um, so it might've worked out for the best this way, but something to think about, right? And again, you're probably not one of those folks, guys. I mean, we're talking like one out of a few hundred dogs, right? It's, it's, it's a very, very small, small number and you probably don't have one of those dogs. But this is a segment where we're talking about drivey dogs. So maybe you do, right? And so if you have one of those dogs where they just get this intense drive, uh, rather suddenly when they see a trigger double box is something you might wanna think about, right?

But before you do that, or in addition to that, there are some other things, right? All the things we talked about in the first segment of the show, make sure you're tying the accountability to your recall. So, and do that before they see the trigger, right?

42:00 — Recall accountability should be rehearsed before triggers appear, while the dog is calm and…

Just go home, go outside, call your dog, knock their socks off. Oh, sounds so mean. It's like, yeah, I know, but it's not. We're putting a tool in your tool chest. We're making your dog safer. Like, there's always a reason for this stuff. We're not mad at the dog, we're not angry at the dog. We're just trying to change a behavior. And this is how you do it. So if you have a dog that you already know you can't trust, you need to do this. Go home, go outside, put your dog on a long line, even if you're in the yard, put him on a long line.

'cause you want to control the outcome. Call your dog, provide the high accountability, get your dog back to you. Have a party, okay? Don't wait for them to see a deer, a rabbit, a coyote, a dog, whatever.

And then do it. Like do it when there's nothing going on. Why? If you have a drive intense dog that gets into that tunnel vision, that's not the time to start trying it. It's too late. You've already missed the fucking boat. Do it when things are quiet, your dog's outside, he's sniffing a dandelion so he can take a whiz on it. Whatever, right? Then call your dog. High correction, not a million times in a row, just once or twice, that's it, okay? We're not asking you to go home and light your dog up over and over and over again.

Again, variation, right? We want your dog to experience something different and meaningful and impactful. So go home and do that. But then I also, so the conversation that I told you I was gonna tell you about that I still haven't brought up, um, was really, really a, a great conversation with a great customer.

Um, they have an interesting dog who has a really fun personality, um, but he can also be a little bit of a jerk sometimes in certain contexts. Um, he definitely has a drivey streak in him, which I like, by the way. I I like drivey dogs. I think they're fun, but you gotta be prepared for the challenges also of having a drivey dog. Uh, so his dog's doing great now, you know, and, and they've been taking him off leash and he's been reliable and everything's good. But I did notice when he would come to my house for boarding, which was a very short boarding stint, it's usually like a day or two, um, that I had to correct him for things.

I didn't feel like I should have to correct him for like just automatic manners at the door or staying on place. Like he seemed to think he could just get off place.

And so I knew already. I'm like, well, at home they're probably not enforcing things really the way that we should be. Um, and I always say people have to live with their dogs however they want, right? But in, in, in this case, no <laugh> because they wanna have their dog off leash and their dog's not being reliable off leash, right? Because that's what the phone call is about. It was, hey, all of a sudden we're having this problem where we're outside and it's nighttime and he'll just take off after some coyotes, which is super dangerous, right?

45:00 — Nighttime coyote chases illustrate why unreliable off-leash recall creates serious safety risks.

And it's like, okay, well I've noticed X, y, z when he is with me. Um, so again, it's like you're putting your dog in the Mount Everest of situations and you want him to listen, but he thinks he can get, just get off place five minutes after I put him there.

So my thing is, you can't, yes, we want you to address that recall directly, like we talked about, like we've been talking about this whole time, and tie that accountability to it that's so important. But man recall is relationship. Guys. If you don't have, if you don't build a relationship with your dog of respect and accountability and you have a drivey dog in a triggering situation, you're just fucked <laugh>. Sorry, I'm just gonna put it bluntly, like you're screwed. You, you can't be done, can't be done. You have to have a relationship with your dog where they just listen to you.

So again, you're in your house, things are laid back, your dog's pretty good, right? Maybe he's getting under your skin a little bit, so you tell him to go to place and he does, right? And then five minutes later what they would say is he calms down and gets off.

And so it's fine, you know, because he is calmed down and so it's fine, but it's not fine because you didn't tell him he could get off there. So what are we doing? The thing is like, to be frank, like in a sense it's, we're selfish and kind of self-centered. We're focused on ourselves and what works for us, right? And the problem is when we do that all day, all day, all day, we're not actually doing what works for us in the long run. We're doing what works for us in the moment, right? Sending him to place worked for us.

He calmed down, he got off when he wanted to, but he was calm. This all works for us, okay, sounds good. But what we actually end up doing is building a relationship with our dogs where we don't mean what we say, we don't enforce the rules, we don't have any rules and boundaries.

Um, yeah. And that's the relationship we build. So when you go out into the Mount Everest of situations and your dog sees a pack of coyotes or deer or a skunk or whatever it is, they don't have that, they don't have that relationship with you, they don't have that history, they don't have that experience to lean on. None of it is there even inside your own walls where it's easy. So now we're outside where it's hard with somebody. The dog has no relationship of respect and accountability and they, they go into drive. Well, it's just over at that point.

I mean, it, it's over. Like there's nothing you can do.

So my advice to them was you have to start enforcing what you say first of all, right? If you say something, if you tell your dog to do something, you have to follow through with that. You have to stick to that, you have to enforce that, right? That doesn't mean he has to be on place all day, but it means he damn well better stay there until you tell him he can get off. Otherwise, what are we even doing? Right? So that's why I say commands, don't fix your problems, right? It's not the commands that fix problems, it's the accountability for them.

It's the requirement, it's the respect that it garners. It's the relationship that you build by making things non-negotiable and also by doing them when they're challenging. So that was the other thing that, that I mentioned I would do. So number one, just holding 'em accountable for the things we actually tell 'em to do, right?

49:00 — Build reliability by enforcing known commands and practicing them in challenging environments.

At a minimum we should be doing that. Um, but in addition to that, are we challenging our dogs? So if you have a drivey dog who's intense, especially if we're talking about pre drive, right? Or any kind of reactivity or any of that, um, or aggression, especially when you wanna be able to have your dog off leash reliable, you better be challenging your dog, not just off leash, right? But before they're off leash in the house, in the yard and wherever you take them, are we challenging our dogs? Right? And the answer is often no.

Because again, we're just doing what works for us, what works for us, what works for us. And what works for us is to just let things go and to just go through our day with our normal daily habits and not do anything different or hard for us.

But it doesn't have to be hard. If you can make a little change in your habits, it can make a huge change in your relationship with your dog for instant. It, it might be easy for you to just come inside, take the leash off your dog and go about your business. Well, how about you go put your dog in a down for two hours, not on place just in a down in the middle of the kitchen while you're making dinner, just tell him to lay down and he has to hold that down while you're walking around and making dinner.

Kids are playing, you know, have someone knock on the door if you wanna, all these things like can your dog just hold it down for two hours, right? Or go to a busy place and walk in a nice tight heel. No exceptions. There's no sniffing the floor, there's no craning our head around. There's no going to sniff people, there's no walking ahead of me.

But do it where it's hard instead of in the same old neighborhood, the same old road, right? Are we asking our dog to do things that are difficult for him? That matters guys. Because if you're not right, even if your dog listens fantastic and everything's great, if you're not asking your dog to do things that are actually hard for him, then when you put him in a situation where things are really hard, he has no experience doing hard things, right? So we talked about time, the accountability to the recall, and we talked about tying accountability to other things in general so that you build a relationship with your dog where they know they have to listen to you and things aren't negotiable.

But then that last piece is challenge in your dog, right? I'm not saying you have to do hard stuff all the time every day, but I think a lot of us just never do anything really hard, right?

And having your dog do something hard doesn't necessarily mean it has to be hard for you. Like I said, just having your dog in a down in the house, the dogs that we train do this. We put them in long downs at the office, at home. We don't do a ton of them because I don't have the dogs that long, but we do them. However, I think nine outta 10 of them, if they came back for boarding, maybe not nine outta 10, but at least half and probably more than half, if they came back for boarding and I put them in a down, they're gonna break it.

53:00 — Regularly rehearse behaviors that are difficult for the individual dog, regardless of how simple…

I know I'm gonna have to correct that because we don't prac they don't practice things like that at home and no judgment there, you know. But if you're not happy where things are or you're experiencing an issue in a specific context with your dog where they're not listening because it's quote unquote too hard, then you should be challenging your dog with that stuff, you know?

And we like to do that anyway. Like I said, we do that with all the dogs when they're here for training. We recommend you do it when you go home. We send people home with a checklist and that's on there, right? It's in there as kind of a fun thing. So you can make sure you're challenging your dog and that you're not letting things deteriorate and that you're doing things you might not have thought to do. Um, it's not a requirement. People don't have to do it, but that's why it's in there. It's a helpful tool to make your dog as good as they can be, even if they're a challenging dog, right?

But, so you have to ask. If you have a dog that gets super drive and intense and takes off on you and gets tunnel vision, you need to be rehearsing regularly. Things that are hard for them. It doesn't matter what it is. It might be something super stupid and simple, but if it's hard for them, that's all that matters.

That's all that matters. That might look like anything. It might look like holding the place command while you play with the other dog. It might be, um, going to the dog park, not inside, but outside and having them hold it down there. It might be walking in a heel in a busy environment, like a really nice polished heel. It might be, who knows, right? Your specific dog. You know their challenges. You know what they struggle with. You know what they're used to doing. You know, what is outside their comfort zone. You know what is unusual for you to ask for, right?

If you have a normal route that you walk in the neighborhood, just change it. Do something different spontaneously. Ask your dog to lay down. Ask them to lay down, walk away from them. All these things. There are so many things you can do, right?

Because the thing is, we get engrossed in our own habits. And as we do that, those habits, those routines, those things we do get easy for the dog. And so if you don't go, Hey, I'm gonna do something a little different today so that I can challenge my dog, then they just don't get that rehearsal. And then again, you have them outside at night, they're a drivey dog, they get triggered, they get that tunnel vision and they have no relationship with you where they've been held accountable for anything even in the house. They have no history of being challenged and rehearsing that impulse control when it's really hard and it's just a recipe for disaster and your dog is gone.

So that's it guys. Tie that accountability to your recall. Keep your dog on a long line until you know they are safe and reliable. Create a relationship of accountability. So if you ask for something, follow through, okay? Um, it doesn't mean your dog can't have any fun and any freedom, but if you say heal, mean, heal, if you say come, mean come. If you say place, mean place, right? So you say be enforcing this stuff. And lastly, challenge your dogs. Do stuff occasionally, at least occasionally that is hard for them. And that means doing something different.

56:00 — If owners say heel, come, or place, they must follow through and make those…

It might just be something simple, but you need to have some time where your dog practices doing stuff that's different and difficult for him so that when he is in a situation where it's important, he could potentially go sideways, um, he's already got some experience to lean on doing things that are counter instinctual to him and are difficult.

That's it for today, guys. That was a long one. Uh, thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me. And, uh, I'll have something hopefully new and interesting for you. Next time, jump on over to our support page. If you wanna support the podcast there, you can, uh, donate, but you can also subscribe to get access to our premium content where we talk about some of the more interesting behind the scenes stuff, specific cases, um, stuff we're dealing with, with our clients, and all kinds of, uh, new and interesting stuff for you there. All right, thanks again for joining me guys, and we'll see you next time.