OMG! My Dog Hates Doggy Daycare!

00:00 — Kati introduces Diamond Canine’s e-collar training specialization for off-leash obedience and behavior modification.

Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog training in Biddeford, Maine. And for those of you that don't know, we specialize in eco training for off-leash obedience and behavior modification. We also do poppy training. So this isn't really my regular intro because my regular intro is stuck on my old laptop, which is broken <laugh>. So that's okay. We're just gonna wing it today. Um, it's good to be back. I haven't done an episode in a long time and I so apologize, um, for, you know, taking so long to get back into the swing of things.

Speaker 1: But things have just been nuts. So around here, um, I mean we've had a lot of dogs, a lot of training dogs, a ton of borders over Thanksgiving and into December, and I even have some over Christmas, um, and a lot of personal stuff going on.

Speaker 1: My daughter was sick and you know, some stuff that I can't even talk about yet, but hopefully soon. Um, some exciting stuff on the horizon. So it's just been absolute chaos and I'm so glad to be back. And, uh, without any further ado, I think we should just jump into today's topic. So I had an interesting conversation with a client the other day, uh, whose dog recently did a board and train. I would say he went home a few weeks ago and this dog was a really easy dog. Um, really good dog, just, you know, not super crazy inhibited his behaviors really, really easily.

Speaker 1: Like once you set a boundary with him, he was really good about it. Um, you, you know, you rarely had to tell him twice, uh, which is unusual. Like most dogs are a little bit more resilient, a little bit more, um, persistent <laugh>, you know, so just all around like an easy dog.

Speaker 1: And we since have gotten an update that he's just doing amazing, which isn't surprising at all. So he's back home and they actually live out of state. They kind of traveled back and forth between the two states and they're able to finally do what they wanted to do, which is turn him loose on the beach and know that he'll come back and he does. He's been great. And so really no complaints. I mean, their follow up was super easy because everything's going really great. But they did have a concern, <laugh>, I think, I think this is not a super uncommon thing to happen.

Speaker 1: So I thought it was worth talking about, you know, and the more I thought about it, the more wound up. Of course I got about it because that's in my nature. But the only concern, like he's doing great, like I said, back home obedience wise, he's doing wonderful.

03:00 — The dog now performs long place, loose-leash heeling, reliable recalls, and enjoys greater freedom.

Speaker 1: He's doing long places at home. He's walking in a heel. He is not pulling anymore. He's coming back when called. They're able to give him freedom. He does have dog friends, he's still doing great with them. Like everything is wonderful except they sent him back to doggy daycare <laugh>, which if you know how I feel about doggy daycare, you already know what I'm thinking. Um, and he didn't like it <laugh>. So, so, but it was obvious he didn't like it, right? So we got a dog that was kind of cowering really keeping to himself his ears, kind of back, maybe even had a little shake on sometimes and just wasn't into it.

Speaker 1: And it was super obvious. And I can see why that would be a little bit alarming, um, to someone who knew the dog before and had the dog in doggy daycare before and saw what was happening versus what's happening now, sending him back.

Speaker 1: Um, but here's the thing, the problem isn't the dog and the problem isn't the training. The problem is doggy daycare, <laugh>. So, and I mean the dog will never be able to speak for himself, right? So who knows really? But my theory in my estimation, because they're interested in that, like they wanted to know, like my opinion, what is happening? Like what does this mean? What's going on? And my opinion is your dog probably never liked doggy daycare. And that just, most people, they just totally dismiss that There's no way, like, I've seen my dog there, he's so happy when I drop him off.

Speaker 1: He's so excited. And it's like, okay, but there's a really good chance that your dog is simply over aroused and frantic and chaotic. So yes, excited, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean happy doesn't necessarily mean they're enjoying themselves, just means they're excited, right? It means they have adrenaline coursing through their veins. Um, a lot of times the discomfort comfort is masked by the arousal. So people see the tail flying and the tongue flying and the legs are moving real fast and the dog just a darting around. And to them it looks like their

Speaker 2: Dog's having a great time. But people miss things like the tight face, the real tight upturned smile, um, the big eyes, the stress pant, right? They think their dog's just running around so they're panting. Um, and maybe they are right, but maybe they're not. Um, so the signs are sometimes there, but we don't see them. 'cause it just looks to us from our human perspective, like the dog's just having a great time. We see this big mess of dogs just running around, running up to all these other dogs, you know, and mounting them or <laugh>, whatever it's they're doing.

06:00 — Tight facial muscles, wide eyes, and stress panting can reveal that a dog is…

Speaker 2: Um, and we're just like, yeah, it's a great time. A dog loves it, but we project that onto our dog. Like the things that we think our dog should love and enjoy, we project onto them. And another good example of that is Lottie, the tiny little, um, Yorkie that we had here recently for a board and train. Um, and I love her family. They did wonderful. And her dog walker was super awesome and and super committed, um, to holding this training together, <laugh> for the owners. So I think that's great. So I'm not picking on them at all.

Speaker 2: But they also fell into that standard trap. I definitely heard one of them say, you know, that Lottie loves everybody. And it's like, just because she's a really adorable, sweet, cute little dog and that you love her dearly and maybe she loves you dearly and maybe you have a great relationship with her, that doesn't mean you just project all things good onto her. And they're true because I can tell you right now, Lottie did not love everybody. <laugh> and I saw that in action. Um, she told my dog off in no uncertain terms. So it's really easy to just say, oh, this thing sounds nice, it sounds like a good time.

Speaker 2: It sounds like a good thing for my dog. And so that just means my dog loves it. It's like no.

Speaker 2: Um, and it took me a little bit to think back to when I had this dog with me, what his social interactions looked like, because of course we don't do a ton of that, but there's usually some, unless I really just can't trust the dog at all. And you know, he wasn't like that, that wasn't his case, his deal at all. So he definitely had time around the other dogs. And the more I think about it, the more I remember him not being super social and that would probably surprise his owners. But when I turned him out with other dogs, I think, I mean every memory I have, he pretty much minded his own business.

Speaker 2: So he just didn't care about the other dogs, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing abnormal about that. This particular dog

Speaker 3: Happens to be a lab. Everybody thinks labs are soup or social, wanna say hi to everybody, but they don't always, and I do remember him just kind of being neutral around other dogs, which in my opinion is fantastic. Like I'll take that any day. Um, but like I said, he is also like kind of a soft sensitive guy. Like if you correct him for something, you didn't have to do it again. Like he was very, very, um, soft in that sense. And so a dog that's pretty soft and is not super social, you can imagine in a chaotic social environment like that, that they wouldn't like that.

09:00 — The client’s Yorkie previously appeared neutral around dogs, which Kati considers an excellent social…

Speaker 3: That makes total sense to me. That's absolutely what I would expect. And so I suspect he really never liked doggy daycare. It just wasn't obvious to them until now, right? And so now he's got this training and he's a calmer dog, right?

Speaker 3: He's a slightly more respectful dog and he's also just been in an environment where all the other dogs have been under control. So he spent two weeks at my house with lots of other dogs around and they're all under control. And I'm advocating for everybody and I'm holding everybody accountable, right? So they can socialize, they can say hi. And if we have two dogs that wanna play, then you know, if they're turned out together and we deem that they're reliable and trustworthy enough to do that, and they have the training under their belt and they wanna play, they can play, uh, we allow that.

Speaker 3: Um, but he's been in an environment where there are still rules. We don't allow dogs to pester, to bully. We don't allow dogs to mount other dogs. We just don't allow any of that stuff to bark incessantly in dogs' faces, to chase them continuously when they're trying to get away.

Speaker 3: We don't allow we of that. We don't allow sheriffs dogs that freak out when other dogs are running around having fun. We don't allow other dogs to run the show. We don't allow any of that. So there's order and there's advocacy and he, that's what he's been experiencing, you know? And then he goes home to his owner's house and he experiences order there, right? Where he's held to the rules and the boundaries and he knows what to expect and every day becomes, you know, rather predictable and he knows exactly what he's supposed to do and everything's great.

Speaker 3: And then they invite their friends over that have their dog friends. And those also happen to be dogs that I've trained. So those dogs are well behaved and they're owners hold them accountable, um, and they're able to go and run and play on the beach or whatever and have a good time. Um, and everybody's listening and everybody's safe and everybody's polite. And then you take him and you just throw him back into the prison yard at doggy daycare and it's a fucking circus and it's chaos and there's no order and there's a million different personalities, some of which I'm sure are not pleasant.

12:00 — Kati warns that daycare exposes dogs to bullies, unpleasant interactions, and uncontrolled group dynamics.

Speaker 3: And you get the sheriffs and you get the bullies. Of course your dog doesn't like it. We're gonna put that in the not a problem category. You guys stop sending your dogs to doggy daycare. Like seriously. And if you send your dog to doggy daycare and your dog obviously hates it, let's not assume that that means there's something wrong with your dog, that something bad happened or that it's a result of you training him and you shouldn't have trained him. It's like, no, your dog is telling you doggy daycare sucks. Like literally, there's nothing else going wrong with this dog or in his life.

Speaker 3: He's great in every way and he's still having a great time off-leash. Time is great. Time with his dog friends is great, his walks are great, his behavior is great, his obedience is great, but he hates doggy daycare. Well, so what is the problem here?

Speaker 3: I can tell you what the problem is. It's doggy daycare. So, you know, and I would say I hate to paint them all with the same broad paintbrush. Um, and there may be some good ones out there, but I have never come across one. I don't think there are any around here. And I get it and I get why they sound like a good idea in theory. And I'm not saying that every dog hates it, although I am willing Tibet, that almost all dogs experience some level of anxiety and discomfort in these places because it can't be good all the time.

Speaker 3: There's just too many dogs and too many personalities and too much chaos.

Speaker 3: And frankly, a dog that thrives in that environment is going to be a chaotic, frantic, nutso dog <laugh>. So it's just not an environment that will nurture, um, the things that help your dog to be balanced. It is an environment that will deteriorate those things. And certainly if you do training and you do training with us, we tell you you don't wanna go there because it is going to erode all of the things that you spent money and time on to build all the skills that you tried to instill in your dog are going to, it's going to have a deleterious effect.

Speaker 3: So we spend all this time not just teaching your dog obedient stuff, but all those other things I mentioned about order, about balance, about handler relevance, about default

Speaker 4: Calmness, impulse control, right? And you can still have fun and you can still have treats and you can still run around, but it's all at handler discretion. And there's always rules and there's always boundaries and they're always enforced. And then you send them into this environment where there's just none of that and it's just fucking chaos. Like there is nothing else. They see other dogs, other dogs are going to be used like their own personal treadmill, right? All the other dogs are just objects to be used, right? And they all have different personalities and some of them are meek and some of them are overpowering and some of them are bullies and some of them are nervous and you throw 'em all together and you just hope for the best.

Speaker 4: And on the outside it might look like it's all just a good time, but it usually is not.

Speaker 4: It usually is not. And your dog is learning that other dogs are either pure stimulation and excitement and just objects to be used, or they're learning that dogs can be assholes, right? And they're probably learning a little bit of both. And also as a side note, it only takes one dog having a bad day to end up with a big group fight. So there's that too. Um, but I mean, I think it just goes without saying if you spend time and money training your dog, like people say they understand the importance of consistency and they say they understand the importance of their own personal accountability and how they have to be consistent, but then they go and they just send their dog off to another handler who knows nothing of this and won't do anything with it.

16:00 — Daycare can teach dogs that other dogs are either stimulation objects or threats, increasing…

Speaker 4: So how does that calculate <laugh>? Like how does that, um, how does that result in maintaining your training and being consistent?

Speaker 4: It absolutely does. Not everything will fall apart. Your dog will rehearse their old habits, um, and they will learn essentially that rules and boundaries aren't real. They're not all the time. Maybe they're contextual, right? And then they might come home and all those old behaviors are now just kind of part of their repertoire again, because they're still rehearsing it when they're in these other environments. It's just a silly thing to do. And I understand sometimes people kind of have to like, if they have a really demanding job, I have some clients that have to work like 24 hour shifts, things like that.

Speaker 4: If you don't have anyone to help you if you don't have a dog walker. But man, let me tell you last resort, I stand by this. I just don't think it's good for your dog. And even if your dog quote unquote does like it, I don't think it's good for your dog.

Speaker 4: I just don't. Now it's personal choice, right? People can do whatever they want with their dog. There's no law. I'm not, I don't think we should outlaw doggy daycare <laugh>. Like that's not what I'm saying. I'm a big proponent of free choice people. But, um, you know, people like to talk outta both sides of their mouth. They want a dog that listens and they want a dog that's calmer and can still have a good time, but can be safe and under control. And you know, they want all these things, but then they also want to be able to send their dog off to doggy daycare and tell themselves their dog's having a great time and that is not gonna affect their training.

Speaker 4: And it just isn't real. It's a fantasy. And I just think it's so funny that even when the dog tells us, Hey, I fucking hate this place, the first place we go is, oh my God, there's something wrong with my dog. It's like, no, there's nothing wrong with your dog. There's something wrong with you <laugh>.

Speaker 4: No, there's nothing wrong with your dog. You know, and I did an episode once too on cause and effect, and people tend to always look for a reason, look for an event, look for something that happened, um, that affected their dog's behavior. And it's like, it's not always the case. Sometimes it's just who your dog is. Like you're just seeing the real dog. Also, this dog happens to be coming into close to a year old, and that's when you start to see things change. 12 to 18 months, the dog's maturing. You're starting to see the real dog.

Speaker 4: So it's very possible you send him off somewhere as a puppy at four months, six months, he might be having a great time. Maybe he was right. And then you start to see the real dog as he comes into 10, 12, 14, 16 months. It's like, oh, my dog actually doesn't really love other dogs that much or meeting new dogs and that's normal.

Speaker 4: Nothing wrong with your dog, right? It doesn't mean you did something or something happened. It's like, no, your dog is telling you this place sucks. I don't like it. <laugh>. So that's it. Um, but I thought, I thought that was worth talking about. I don't think they're alone in their experience, but I, I do think seeing that contrast for them was alarming. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, something must have happened while he was training. Um, that changed, you know, changed him for the worse, right? Like made him not trust other dogs or, and it's like, no, he is just telling you now, like, I don't like being in this environment where their dogs are nuts and that is normal.

20:00 — Kati says the dog’s daycare avoidance may reflect emerging preferences around twelve to eighteen…

Speaker 4: So, um, think twice before sending your dog into an environment like that. Guys. Um, get a dog walker instead. And if you have a good one who wants to learn how to use the equipment, send them to me <laugh> so I can teach them and I can refer people to them because we are looking, uh, for people to work side by side with. So my customers have people to walk their dogs.

Speaker 5: Thanks for joining us today, guys. It was a rather short episode, but I'm gonna be doing another one again real soon. Hope you're enjoying your holiday season. I'm so glad to be back again. And, uh, hopefully you'll be hearing from me again very shortly. Bye-bye guys. See you next time.