You Don’t Need A Single Piece Of Food

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces training challenges for dogs that reject food or prioritize distractions over…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe delivering the truth in dog training.

So what do you do if your dog is not into food? Your dog's not food motivated. Not food driven. Seems like everywhere you look, the answer to everything is supposed to be food. High-value treats, higher-value treats, <laugh>. Not all dogs are into food. Obviously all dogs have to eat. Um, but a lot of dogs are not that excited about food. Some dogs are nervous and shy eaters, so you know they're not going to eat, um, from your hand and that sort of thing. And a lot of dogs, even if they are into food, you know, when they see a trigger, the trigger outweighs the food a hundred percent of the time.

So what's the answer to that? And the answer is, find a training program that is actually good <laugh>. So any good decent training program is not going to rely on food. Doesn't mean they don't use food, but there shouldn't be a dependency on it. So right off the bat, if the only answer a trainer can give you is food, if food is supposed to solve all of your problems, if you're always supposed to be able to get what you want with food, then you should run away. You should run away because that is not an effective training program.

You have to think about the complexity of not just how different dogs can be from one dog to another, but how different a single dog can be from one moment to the next, right? At home in a calm environment, in public, in a busy environment. Low distraction, high distraction, quiet, noisy, squirrels, no squirrels, other dogs. No other dogs. So it's not gonna look the same. And the response is not gonna be the same. So if you're relying on motivating your dog purely with things that they want, you're going to continue to struggle. <laugh>, you should have things that your dog is motivated to obtain and things that your dog is motivated to avoid.

So if you have those two things, you now have a much more effective training program. And then if you can take those things and you can adjust them based on the specific dog and the specific scenario, now you have an extremely effective program. Okay? Now any trainer that's worth their salt is not gonna tell you that you can cure your behavioral issues using food.

I'm not saying there's never a case where that's the case. Um, but that's pretty rare, okay? Especially, you know, depending on what we're talking about. So yeah, if you have a dog that's just a little nervous of the vacuum, maybe you can fix that with food, okay? So I'm not, that's not a behavioral issue, but if you have a dog that really is incapacitated by fear, is really governed by fear, food probably isn't going to fix that. If you have an aggressive dog, food certainly isn't going to fix that. Um, if you have a dog that chooses to chase the squirrel instead of come back to you, food is probably not going to fix that either.

04:00 — Kati responds to social media criticism calling e-collars and prong collars tools for lazy…

So what do you do? Well, that's why my programs are e-collar programs, right? So I read something earlier today that inspired me to pick this topic, <laugh> to talk about, because this person was just going off on social media about how e-collars and prong collars are for lazy dog trainers. And I love that argument. I, I think it's hilarious, um, <laugh> for a lot of reasons. So first of all, let me just say, what is wrong with doing less work? Why? Why do we have a problem with that? I mean, assuming we're being effective. Now, if we weren't being effective, then yes, I would get your point, right?

You have the roommate that sits on the couch and the apartment is falling apart around them and the dishes are piled to the ceiling. Like, I understand why less work in that context is bad, right? Because it's not working.

Um, but if you can do less work and obtain your goals, is that really a bad thing? Of course not. It just pisses them off, um, that that is the case. So less work is not bad, as long as you're effective. Keep that in mind. But the other reason that it's hilarious is because e-collars are not less work in most cases. So it depends on what we're talking about. So if we're talking about eliminating a bad behavior, yeah, I'm going to be able to accomplish that most likely very quickly with an e-collar. I can just correct that behavior and now I'm done.

Right? Maybe not one and done, but maybe it is. I might have to correct the dog a few times. It might be something we have to chip away at for a little while, but most of the time with most behaviors, we can just knock them out fairly quickly with an e-collar correction applied properly. You do have to understand the sequence and how to apply a correction, but it's not something we work on, okay? If your dog, for instance, jumps on people, right? 'Cause that's super common. I can mark that with a no when the dog begins to jump.

And I can follow that with a meaningful correction on the e-collar. Super easy at a distance. All I have to do is push a button and a lot of dogs are not going to jump again.

And a lot of dogs are going to jump a few more times and I'm going to have to correct them a few more times so that they see the pattern, that it is the jumping that is causing the correction. And it doesn't matter who they jump on, there's a correction, okay? But it still doesn't take long. We're talking about a few moments, a few opportunities to have the dog make the mistake and correct them. Okay? So the people that are saying that that's lazy are the people that want you to hire them so that they can spend hours and hours with you and the dog on a leash with treats, teaching the dog how to sit and just practicing sitting <laugh> instead of jumping.

And in the end you get a dog that may or may not do some sitting but is still doing some jumping and it just pisses them off to no end.

That other dog trainers who are honest will tell you that you can just correct your dog for jumping and they, they will just stop. But that actually is the fact of the matter. Like they, they, you just gotta tell your dog not to do that anymore. So that's not lazy, okay? That's effective. It's efficient and effective, not lazy. Prong collar, same deal. Same deal. Okay? So maybe you can build a house without a hammer and nails or a drill, right? Or a circular saw. Maybe you can do that. But why in the hell would you ever wanna do that?

If somebody asked me to do that, I would definitely turn that down. <laugh> Okay, no thank you. Do not sign me up for that. And that's why clients don't dictate the tools that I use. I use the tools that I do because they're extremely effective, efficient, and safe. They're perfect for almost any dog. I'm in complete control. I can tailor the intensity of my tools. I can use them for guidance, for little reminders to help dogs settle. I can use them for corrections, gentle corrections, firm corrections. I can do almost anything with the tools that I use.

But this person and millions of other people out there, just like her,

want me to rely on food. They want me to fail. They want you to fail <laugh>, but they want you to pay them despite failing. And we just don't do that. We're not gonna take people's money and give them solutions that don't work well, 'cause those aren't solutions. That just keeps people stuck. Okay? But the reason too, that e-collars—it's hilarious when they refer to e-collars as lazy, the lazy way of training—is because if we're talking about building behaviors, which often they are, meaning teaching the dog to do things, right? So if we're talking about jumping or counter surfing, then we're trying to stop behaviors.

10:00 — Kati distinguishes teaching sit, place, and recall with an e-collar from correcting unwanted behaviors.

If we're talking about sitting, going to place, coming back when called, these aren't behaviors we're trying to stop. These are behaviors we're trying to build. We're trying to teach the dog to do a behavior. We use e-collars for that, guys, and we're not punishing the dog when we're teaching these behaviors.

We're actually usually using a very low level that's often imperceptible to humans. And we're teaching the dog with a leash what to do when they feel the e-collar come on, on that very low level. It's not painful, it's not uncomfortable. The thing is, if you just put an e-collar on your dog and you just push buttons, they're not gonna know what to do with it. They're not magic, they're not easy buttons. I can't tell you how many people I've heard of that have put an e-collar on their dog, told their dog to come back to them, right?

Called their dog back. When the dog ignores them, they push the button on the e-collar. Sometimes it might be vibrate, it might be stimulation, doesn't matter. And the dog runs for the hills because there was no training, okay? So if e-collars were lazy, you'd be able to just slap it on and push a button.

And first of all, if that worked, why wouldn't we do that? Okay? But it doesn't, it doesn't usually work. It's not how it works. We actually have to go through a process of teaching the dog what we want when they feel the collar. We teach them the command, right? Meaning the word. We teach them the English word, what the behavior is that's attached to that word. And then we also teach them what the e-collar stimulation means in that context. So we're using these super low levels and teaching the dog. I often refer to those low levels as pressure, right?

'Cause it's almost like a tap on the shoulder or like a leash tug. Teach the dog the e-collar pressure turns on when I say come, and then it shuts off when you get to me. So I'm teaching the dog a language with the e-collar, and we do tons and tons and tons of repetition and rehearsal. We start in a low distraction, then we go and we work around distractions. We work the dog through it with a leash. We show them what we want, we show them what to do. How is that lazy <laugh>?

So, so when people say that's the lazy way to train, they just clearly either they just don't know what they're talking about, they're ignorant to the process. Um, and more likely they're just bitter liars, <laugh>. So, uh, if you have someone discouraging you from e-collar training,

you, you should probably just tell that person to go screw themselves and you should find yourself a good trainer or do lots of research and DIY it, that's fine too. The information's out there, guys. Um, but hands down, most effective tools, efficient tools, safe tools. And guess what? It doesn't matter if your dog's food motivated. And guess what, you can still use food. There's no rule against that. I do it all the time. So when I'm first teaching a dog what sit means, what lay down means, what go to place means, I'm using food for that.

14:00 — Kati combines food rewards with e-collar training so dogs learn how their behavior turns…

And I'll start bringing in the e-collar and I'm still using food for that. So then your dog can actually learn too that when they feel e-collar pressure turn on, they learn that, that means you're asking for something and they learn how it's tied to their behavior. They learn how to shut it off and they learn it's an opportunity to earn food, which is great.

There's no law that says you either use e-collar or you use food. You can use both. And that's how you're gonna be the most effective, is if you learn to use a variety of techniques and methods and rewards and corrections. You need to be effective in the moment and you need to be effective long term. And that's gonna look different for every dog. And if you just handcuff yourself to treats, yeah, there are some dogs out there that you might be very effective and, and get them to a very high level of reliability. But those dogs are pretty rare.

And then most dogs are gonna be very iffy still, 'cause everything is remained optional, right? They get to choose, is what you're saying. So if all you have is rewards, then the dog in any moment is gonna choose, well, which one do I prefer? And then they're gonna pick whichever one they prefer. The squirrel or the treat. This is basic math, okay? So everything stays optional and most dogs are gonna be iffy. They're not gonna be reliable. Then some dogs are gonna be very unreliable, right? So again, everything's a spectrum.

So you wanna learn to use the things that work for your dog and you're gonna want to use the tools that give you the most flexibility. That's how you are successful. But if you're married to an ideology that says you should never do that, that's bad, then you're just not gonna be that effective. So I <laugh>, there's a very good trainer out there, um, genius of a man, and he says, "Tell me what you won't do and I'll show you what you can't do." And it's so true, it's so accurate. So the moment you incorporate that into your vocabulary, "You can't, you, you shouldn't, I won't, I refuse."

That's bad. You shouldn't do that. Then you're just, you're not gonna be that effective. You're, you're gonna fail. You're not gonna reach your goals.

And the e-collar is fantastic because it gives you a physical layer of communication. It's so important because when your dog sees distractions, you know, especially if you have a really drivey dog, a prey-driven dog or a very nervous dog, a fearful dog, right? Everyone says, "Oh, you can't use e-collar on nervous, fearful dogs. That's just horrible. You're gonna shock a nervous dog." They don't know what they're talking about. So it gives you a way to tap your dog on the shoulder, gives you a way to apply leash pressure literally without a leash.

You need a physical layer of communication with your dog because they hang up the phone, guys, and you're just back there screaming and yelling like a buffoon, dangling the chicken legs, bribing your dog to come back and they're not gonna listen. Right? Or maybe they will, but if they will, then you're probably not listening to this <laugh>. So, um, you need to use tools that give you flexibility. So if your dog isn't food-driven, there's plenty of hope for you. Plenty of hope for you. I train dogs that are not food-motivated all the time.

18:00 — Kati says she can train without food, although she likes using it initially to…

So I like to use food in the beginning. Um, you know, if dogs are into it to help build up behaviors and build enthusiasm for the behaviors, that's great. But we don't have to, we don't have to use it at all. I can train a dog without using a single piece of food and regardless of how much food I use, which I generally only use it early on, but regardless, when dogs go home from a board-and-train, I almost never use any food at all, 'cause it's so important for the owners to see it.

It's okay to use it, it's okay to reward your dog, but you shouldn't have to, you shouldn't have to keep your pockets lined with food just in case, 'cause that means two things.

It means your dog's not reliable, which means they probably shouldn't be off leash anyway.

Okay? And it means that it's only a matter of time before your bribery fails and you're not able to get the behavior you want. And if that's recall, that could potentially be very dangerous.

And as far as prong collars are concerned, it's all leash handling. And why do I wanna invest hours and hours of my time

Critter back and forth, up and down the street with food, bribing my dog, begging my dog, when all I have to do is give a little wrist flick and say, "Hey, don't mind that dog over there. Hey, don't pull on the leash," and then we can just go about our business and everything is cool. I had a client start, actually I had two clients start on the same day last week. One had a Lab and one had a Lab-pittie mix. They both had the same problem. One was a little worse than the other. The Lab, uh, extreme, extreme pull, and I mean one of the most extreme I've ever had.

So she didn't just pull, but she had learned to do this bulldozing behavior where like she would just run to the end of the leash and pull with all of her strength all at once, just, just put in every ounce of effort she could dredge up. And she was wearing a prong collar. By the way, when she did this, her owner already had her on a prong collar <laugh>. And the pittie-Lab mix was also a puller.

21:00 — Kati describes improving two dogs' pulling through proper prong collar fitting and leash handling,…

And these are both people that had put in all kinds of time with their dogs trying to fix the pulling and it just wasn't working. So they tried a prong collar and guess what? It still wasn't working <laugh>. So because they weren't fitted properly, they didn't know how to handle the leash properly. Um, and once I introduced them to those things, things got better. The Lab still needed a little more, we added e-collar to help her get responding to the pressure a little bit better, 'cause she had already been conditioned to just pull right through the prong collar.

So if prong collars are so scary and awful, why is it that so many dogs come in here just pulling right through them?

'Cause they're not that bad, guys. <laugh> They're really just not, they're not nearly as aversive as people think they are. You have to learn how to handle your leash. But once you do that, you can actually communicate with your dog now so much easier. And the bribing goes away, which is good because bribing fails. Guys, you cannot train a behavior to be reliable with bribing. You have to draw some boundaries with your dog and you need to have a way to talk to them to tell them when you disagree with something. And again, if you're just bribing your dog while you're walking down the street with treats and every time they see a dog with treats, everything stays optional.

Everything. So none of this is about being mean or bullying your dog, it's just about the principles of behavior. Rewards are great, they're fine. But you need to balance that with real boundaries, with actual negative consequences too. You need to disagree with things sometimes. Otherwise you have literally never told your dog not to do the thing that you don't want them to do. I mean, I wouldn't expect much.

So if you're feeling frustrated and you feel like, you know, you're putting in so much time and effort and you're dedicated and you're trying so hard to be consistent, um, but all you're using is food or your dog just isn't into food, so you have no idea how to train them, there are options. There are absolutely ways to train your dog that are very effective and they're probably not nearly as terrible <laugh> as the sources out there lead you to believe. So I highly encourage you to check out my social media, Diamond K9 Dog Training on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and take a look at some of the training that I'm doing.

And there's other trainers out there too, take a look at their, their pages, see what they're doing. There's more than one way to train with an e-collar.

Um, but you know, the way that I do it, uh, we often are using food as well in the beginning. So there's no hard and fast rules about it really. And you gotta be open-minded and you gotta be effective. So it's one of the most gratifying things for me is getting in dogs that are not food driven because people are at their wit's end and they don't know what to do. I mean, their dog literally will just turn their nose right up at the food or they'll take it and just spit it out. <laugh> Oh, if that's your dog, have no worries.

You can train them up. You just need the right information. Alright, guys, that's it for today's episode. Don't forget to hit subscribe so we can do this again real soon. In the meantime, happy practicing and I look forward to seeing you next time. <silence>.