There Are Only Two “Types” Of Training—Effective And Ineffective

00:00 — Kati introduces the confusion surrounding dog-training information, especially for new puppy owners and struggling…

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leashing Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe of Diamond Canine Dog training in Biddeford, Maine. We do eco training, puppy raising, uh, off leash obedience and behavior modification. Uh, definitely specialize in the behavior modification off leash and state of mind work. Uh, so that's who we are and what we do. Have you ever found yourself somewhat overwhelmed by the training information that's out there? I mean, especially if you just got a, like a new puppy, um, or maybe if you've been struggling with something with your dog's behavior for a while and you've been trying different stuff, and as you do your research, you know, you look on the web, you ask around like, you're just presented with all of these different quote unquote methods of training or types of training.

And I gotta tell you, I frigging hate that language,

So it makes my skin crawl almost when I hear type of training. So, and there are, there are types of training, but let me tell you what I think of when I think of types of training. I think of sport dog training, I think of agility training, I think of protection training. I think of obedience training, I think of puppy training. Um, so in my mind, when you say types of training, it refers to what sorts of things you're doing with your dog and what, what are you trying to teach them, right? Are you teaching them a specific sport, a specific skill?

Are you teaching them to listen to be a good family dog? That's what I think of when I think of types of training, but that's not usually what people mean when people generally say

Types of training. They're referring to positive reinforcement or punishment, punitive based training, which for the record really doesn't exist. So just because training includes the use of punishment does not make it a punishment based training. Now, I'm sure there are people out there that try to do that. So I'm not standing here saying, oh, there are no trainers that do that. But I can tell you there are no effective trainers <laugh> that do that. Okay? So if you take a dog and you actually try to teach them something that they don't know using punishment, it's probably not going to work.

03:00 — Kati argues that no effective trainer relies exclusively on one training approach.

I'm not gonna say it's never going to work, but generally speaking, it doesn't work.

Okay? That's gonna yield problems and it's not gonna yield what you want. Um, nobody does that <laugh>, okay? Like I said, I'm sure someone out there does, but we're talking about the crazies. Like it is just not real. Um, that's what people usually mean when they say types of training or quote unquote clicker training, right? So again, that's not really a type of training, it's just training. Um, what else? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but, uh, there's the nepo po. Like that's a common one in, in more like with the sport dog people.

Um, but you know, lots of people use it, but you know, what will happen is trainers will kind of come up with their own special name, um, for training with their methods. But you know, the, the fact is nobody really owns any method, right?

Um, and they just, you know, they just stick a name on it to make it sound fancy and to make some money off it. And that's fine. I don't have any problem with making money off, you know, your, your style of training, your methods, your tips and tricks that you have found that works. Like, that's totally fine. So I'm not standing here either taking a big stance against doing that sort of thing. I'm just saying that really there's just effective training and there's ineffective training, and it's really that simple and there really is nothing else to it, <laugh>.

So when I have a dog that is struggling with our training,

Sometimes people that are, you know, close enough to see what's happening will at least consider that it's quote unquote the type of training. And here's why that burns my ass, because there are no types of training. There is just training, right? So if you are an effective trainer, you use all sorts of tools and methods, right? Or maybe you don't, maybe you have a pretty tight window of tools, but your methods are going to depend on the dog in front of you and the circumstance. So an effective trainer, they do what works to accomplish the goal.

06:00 — Effective trainers adjust their methods and tools to the dog and circumstances instead of…

Correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, is there anything else that actually matters besides that the goal is to reach the goal, right? So you do what gets you there. So when we do have a dog that struggles with our training, which we kind of have right now, and I think that's why I was kind of thinking about this a little bit.

Uh, we have Maverick with us and he's, um, a handful, and I hate to use the word stubborn, but boy, if there's a stubborn dog out there, it's him <laugh>. So once he decides he's not gonna do something or he is not gonna do it anymore, damn it, he's not doing it. Like you're gonna have a really hard time <laugh>. And that has been our experience so far. Um, but he's really starting to turn some corners and he's actually come a pretty long way since he came in. We're, we're trending, we're trending in the right direction for sure.

Uh, and I don't wanna get too off track talking about Mavi, but um, you know, it's really easy for somebody to look at him on a bad day or in a moment where we're struggling with him and say, well, that training doesn't work. That type of training doesn't work. And it's like, no, you're looking at this from a really ignorant perspective because you're not con nowhere in there. Do I hear anything about this? By the way, you're not considering the genetics of the doc.

That is a huge piece to this guys. So the great thing about truly effective, efficient trainers is genetics can vary widely and they're still gonna get traction. And that's what we do, right? So we have dogs of all sorts coming here. We have really fearful nervous dogs. We have super soft sensitive dogs, we have really big strong, pushy dogs, aggressive dogs, and we're very effective and efficient with all of them. But they're all different. Even if you pull one of those categories out and you look at all the dogs that fall in that category, each one of those dogs is different.

None of them are going to end up the same. None of them are going to learn everything at the same rate into the same level. They are all different. And so sometimes you're going to get a dog that just struggles. Sometimes you're gonna get a dog that just can't be helped. And I had one of those the other day. FYI, uh, it's rare. That's super rare, but it happens occasionally and I know when I see it <laugh> and it was pretty ugly.

Um, but if you are not even considering the genetics of your dog, then I mean, you're basically, you're looking at the world through a lens that is faulty. You cannot attribute all of the results to the training, especially the quote unquote type of training, okay? It's always the training plus the genetics yields the results. And sometimes you're gonna have genetics that are so ugly that the results are ugly. And it doesn't matter what you do because there is nothing you can do, you will never be able to change that. Dog's genetics. And there's always a genetic component.

So for instance, Maverick, um, he's been a little bit of a struggle, but I see the progress, I see the learning, I see the changes every day. Uh, he's gonna be in a much better place when he leaves. I'm really excited about that, you know, but a few weeks ago, I had a really super easy, soft, sensitive dog, didn't want any trouble. Um, he's not gonna look like that dog when he goes home. It doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't matter if I'm using a clicker or an eco, it doesn't matter.

He's not the same dog as that other dog. So you have to consider that with your result. Now, if you are married to only using positive, right, or only using negative, which doesn't mean just punishment, by the way, all right? So I don't like to get super sciencey. I don't like to talk about negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, um, positive punishment. Like I don't like to break things down that way, but when I say negative, right, there's still a spectrum. It could be like mildly annoying. It could be really painful, right? Those are both negative. If you wanna be really effective and efficient, then you need to get really good at using whatever it is in that moment with that dog that teaches the behavior and then maintains the behavior and makes the behavior reliable.

11:00 — Kati rejects committing exclusively to positive or negative methods and emphasizes choosing what produces…

Or if we're talking about stopping behaviors, then the opposite, you need to use whatever will stop the behavior and inhibit it from returning, right? And there are certain things we know to be more or less rules about that, right? So you're never going to inhibit a behavior with a reward. Just doesn't work that way. Yes, I can teach the dog to do other things, but I can't teach them not to do the thing. I want to stop by using a reward. It's just not possible.

So if I have a dog that bites me over a resource, I'm not trying to fix that with a reward, it doesn't mean I won't use any rewards in that process for different aspects of it. I very well may, I often do, but you can rest assured there's going to be a punishment for guarding that resource, right? Or for not giving that resource up. When I ask you to, once I've taught you that behavior, I'm going to expect it, right? For instance, I teach dogs the out command to give up the resources when I ask for them.

There may very well be rewards during that training while I'm teaching them the out command. But once they know the out command, if they don't do it, there is a correction for that. If they guard that resource, there is a huge punishment for that. So you can see how if you're only choosing one method or the other, you're only providing your dog with half of the training. And I don't care how good or bad quote unquote your dog is, it doesn't matter. They still go by the rules and principles of behavior. So you have to have both.

14:00 — Effective training demands adaptability, an open mind, and honesty about whether the chosen approach…

You have to have a spectrum. You have to have an open mind, you have to have a variety. You have to be able to adapt. You have to be able to do what's right to achieve your goals and not lie to yourself.

Don't lie to yourself about how effective you are or what your dog is capable of increasing a sit will never stop jumping. It's just not gonna happen. And those lies result in people and dogs getting hurt, right? I was just on Ian Dunbar's page on Facebook, and there is some ungodly information on there, and I don't generally like to use trainer's names, but when it comes to people that are considered to be an authority on dog training, people that have thousands or even millions of followers and they're just spreading lies, I will absolutely use their name.

Um, this isn't just a trainer that I am, I don't agree with, um, or that is, you know, making mistakes or is uneducated. This is somebody who is spreading lies and harmful information. Um, and I see it every day, and I'm not here to like launch some kind of war against him, but I was just on that page. And, uh, I see some, some things and, and you can see how you end up in the situations you end up in with, you know, off leash, dogs, you know, charging you. And they're just not under control because the information that these people are spreading, people believe it, and they believe that they can just put in the time with some high value treats.

And like, they think they should be able to go off leash with their dog out in public where there's other people and dogs around. And, and then you end up with a catastrophe. And that's not, in my head, that's not imagined, that's not fiction. That happens every day. Every day, right? Or that dogs should always be free and should never be on a leash, should never be in a crate.

My husband got his lip ripped off a few weeks ago, and he didn't even go into the person's yard or house, and he still lost a piece of his face because of these kinds of beliefs, because of that ideology. So don't lie to yourself about how effective you're being. Your dog is capable of more. If you're, if you've been married to a quote unquote type of training, right? And your dog just isn't quite getting there, yeah, that's normal. Your dog can do better. You're just not, you're not doing it right. You're not being effective.

But so part of my point here is that people will hear of another type of training, right? Some new name someone has stuck on to their program, and they'll think it's something new and fancy and that they should try it with their dog. And it's like, no, you, like, you're missing the point, right? So I've even had clients that while they're here dropping their dog off, you know, we kind of get off on a side conversation and they'll turn to their partner and say, Hey, I wonder if our dog would've responded to clicker training. And it's right then that you just wanna put your head in your hands and say, no, you're, you're missing the point.

18:00 — Clickers are merely markers; replacing one with another does not create a fundamentally different…

It's not about the clicker training is training is training is training.

Markers are markers, rewards are rewards. Punishments are punishments, right? There isn't a magic device out there that has fairy dust that's just going to turn your dog around. You have to use the rules of behavior and you have to adapt to the dog. And what I mean by adapt to the dog is, look, here's a good example. I had Louis the other day, Louis's a a pit bull, um, used to be highly reactive, aggressive. And uh, I did private sessions with his owner. He'll still walk all over you if you let him. Um, but for me, he's great for his owner, he's great, and he can take him places now and he can do things.

And he learned to control his arousal a great deal and control impulses. And he's just in a, a much, much better place. Super proud of these guys. It's one of my, uh, top success stories that comes to my mind.

But anyway, I had Louie in the car the other day and we're riding along and I've got, I turned on the air conditioner in the car and, um, he kept like sticking his nose in the vents and smelling the air for some reason. And, and I don't care by the way, like that didn't matter to me. Um, but every time he did that, his head would come closer to me and I would get the urge to pet him. <laugh>. So that's right. I pet dogs. Oh my God, who would've thought? Um, so I pet him on the head and he would immediately pull his head away.

'cause guess what? Louis doesn't really like petting. And so normally I don't really do it if they don't like it, but in this case, I, you know, I just did. Um, and after about twice he stopped sniffing the vent. Now why is that? Because head petting was a punishment. So I actually punished a behavior by touching him on the head with affection, right? So we have this preconceived notion in our head about, first of all what punishment is. So you have to remember from a behavioral definition standpoint, punishment just means something that reduces or eliminates the behavior.

And in this case, that did. So that is a punishment, a hundred percent,

Right? So you can't classify affection as a reward. That's not how this works. Guys. If you do that, you are missing the point.

21:00 — Affection is not automatically rewarding because its value depends on the individual dog and…

You have to look at that dog that's in front of you and what they like and what they don't like, and which is also gonna change in every context, by the way. And then you look at how it affects their behavior, and that is how you classify something as reward or punishment. So you really can't look at the thing at just face value and say, now food is not a reward to a lot of dogs because they don't care about it, right? Eventually they'll care about it. All dogs have to eat. But a lot of dogs, especially if they're fearful, they don't care about food.

It's not a reward, right? And so when you look at a dog and you think, oh, well that training didn't work. That training doesn't work because that dog's struggling. That's just not right. That's, that's not, that's not a statement that can be proven true or false by looking at one dog because they're all genetically different, right? Just like you can't determine if something is a reward or a punishment, generally speaking, you have to see it applied to that dog in that context to see what is it.

So a lot of us are just thinking about this from the wrong point of view. So I just thought that that was an interesting, um, point worth making and reminding everybody that, you know, if you're struggling with something with your dog or you're just looking into starting training with your dog or your puppy, um, stop thinking about what type of training. Okay? Just get good effective training from somebody that knows what they're doing. Stop paying so much attention to the tool or the name of the program or the, the quote unquote method, right? The method should be what works.

That's the method. That's my method. That's what I use guys. I what whatever works. Okay? That's part of the reason that I love e-collar so much is I have a huge spectrum, wide variety of tap on the shoulder. Annoying, uncomfortable, super uncomfortable, right? And by using constant pressure, I can also turn that into a reward by shutting it off and I can use food. 'cause there's no law that says I can't, okay? I use it all. That's effective training. So if you're looking to do some training with your dog, guys, get some effective training. <laugh> listening and.