The Use Of Obedience, Behavior Mod, And State Of Mind Work With Your Dog

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Off Leash and Unfiltered and asks listeners to subscribe or follow.

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey everyone, thanks for being here today on this beautiful, I'm recording this on a Tuesday. I have to think about it 'cause it all kind of blends together. You'll probably be listening to this on a Friday, presumably.

Um, but today is supposed to be a scorcher. Um, and I'm not complaining. I hate it when people complain about the heat, especially when they've been bitching about the cold all winter. And I am one of those people. Um, I am always cold, always cold.

In fact, you might find me with a sweatshirt on today because even though it's supposed to be about 93 degrees outside, um, my space here, our training center is like a meat locker <laugh>. And so if I sit in this chair just flapping my gums, uh, for this podcast, I am probably gonna get cold and I'm gonna have to bundle up <laugh>. But, uh, we're putting the air conditioner in today because my mom will be at the house and she comes all the time and, and she helps me out with the cleaning and taking care of my dogs and stuff while I'm working.

So, super, super helpful. So grateful for her. But you know, I said to my husband this morning before work and we never do anything before work. We're not morning people, we're always in a rush. But I was like, you have to put the air conditioner in like this.

This has to happen. Um, my mom's gonna be here and she can't handle it. And the air conditioner in her car isn't working. She doesn't have the air conditioner in, in her own apartment yet, so she will have no reprieve. And I said, I feel kind of like she's a neglected house pet and we're, we're gonna come home and find her like unconscious from heat stroke, um, or something. So air conditioner's going in today. But anyways, enough, enough babbling. Um, let's talk about dogs 'cause that's what we're all here for. And you know, I talk about all of these things, but I don't think I ever really talk about how they all relate to each other.

Um, so most people when they come to see us, they're here usually because they want obedience or because they have a behavior that they can't stop. Um, and there's a third piece to this, which is state of mind, right?

03:00 — Kati introduces three overlapping training categories and explains why knowing commands may not resolve…

And there's always gonna be some overlap and it's all a little hazy depending on how you wanna define each of these things. And I don't wanna split hairs about how they're really defined, but I'm gonna just talk a little bit about the three distinct categories in my mind and kind of how they all relate to each other and the things we do to make progress in each of those areas, because those are things you can apply at home. And I think, I think too, this is so, so valuable because like, I think in general, when people think of training, they do think of commands.

I've said that many times before and yeah, that's a huge piece of your training, but it will only get you so far. Guys, we have dogs come in here all the time that know their commands, they know them inside out and people still struggle in certain areas with their dogs, um, depending on what their issues are because the commands just won't fix that stuff.

And so let's talk about how we do fix that and sort of when clients go through our programs, we always start out with the obedience stuff for several reasons, right? We like to lay that foundation, but also that's just the most basic piece of e-collar training. Um, but if they do their homework and they stick with the program, we're probably gonna move on to more in-depth stuff that then bleeds into these other two categories besides obedience. So in my mind, the three pieces that we have when, when we're working with a dog and they come in for their program, the three pieces that we're dealing with are obedience, behavior, generally meaning like behavior modification, and state of mind.

And again, there's some overlap, right? But the, so those are kind of the three, uh, major players in dog training in my, in my mind when I see a dog, these are the three things I'm going after.

And we have a couple of different programs for people, right? So someone comes in to do our really basic e-collar program, um, which is our most basic program is two weeks. And that's basically just enough time for us to get your dog fairly fluent with the e-collar, um, and their commands, right? So, so we're focused on obedience in that program. Program, yes, there is some behavior modification because we do inhibit unwanted behaviors, but they're generally pretty simple behaviors like, uh, barking, jumping on people, pulling on the leash. These are things we can just punish those behaviors and you know, a contingent negative consequence attached to those behaviors and those behaviors go away.

So it's pretty simple. But, so our most basic program is it's focused almost entirely on obedience. And there's a sliver of like behavior modification to just knock out some of those simple nuisance behaviors that like most dogs have, right?

06:00 — More intensive programs combine obedience, behavior modification, and state-of-mind work for fear, anxiety, reactivity,…

Really, really easy to get rid of most of that stuff. And then we have a more in-depth program which is geared more towards, yes, we do the obedience, but there's more behavior modification going on because usually these dogs are dealing with other stuff like fear, anxiety, reactivity, aggression, resource guarding, whatever it may be. So there's a, a bigger piece there to the behavior modification and that tends to be tied very heavily with state of mind. And so usually in that program, and what you would do if you're dealing with that stuff at home too, is we're leveraging the obedience in a way that helps us to modify behaviors and address state of mind.

So what do I mean by that? Alright, let's take the obedience piece, right? Maybe you've taught your dog their obedience already, maybe you're working on it. Obedience means you're gonna teach your dog what certain words mean.

You're going to take those words, you're gonna tie them to behaviors, right? Sit means put your butt on the ground. Down means put your elbows on the ground. Place means lay down on the cot. Heel means stay next to my left leg, at my heel. Come means I want you to come to me and sit down in front of me or near me or whatever your standard is, right? So you're gonna teach your dog those words and the behaviors that are attached to them or whatever commands you wanna teach. That's obedience. But you're not done then, right?

Because then at the end of all that, you still have to add in the accountability. For us that's really, really important. So once your dog knows all this stuff, now you're gonna say, okay, now it's not negotiable. And here's the thing, guys, that's absolutely necessary. If you wanna have your dog off leash, you cannot have your dog out off leash. I'm not gonna say you can't, right? But you absolutely should not have your dog off leash if you have not attached contingent negative consequences to not listening to you, to non-compliance.

It is a huge mistake. Your dog is not safe. The other people and dogs around you may not be safe. Um, safe. You're opening up the door for disaster to strike. So <laugh> and I, I'm, I think I've mentioned this before in previous episode, I hate it when people say, please do this or please don't do that because it's like they're some kind of authority on the subject and like it's their job to tell you what to do like in your home with your dog. But this is one place where I will say, please don't do that.

Or I'll, I'll, you know what? Forget being polite. Don't fucking do that. <laugh> Do not take your dog off leash if you have not finished the job, which is there is a negative consequence if you don't listen to me. It's uncomfortable if you don't listen to me. It's so important because otherwise they won't.

And yes, I know your dog is good most of the time unless, until, right? But that's the point. Unless and until or when it's important, <laugh> that did that is the point. Um, so we just hear all too often, you know, dogs off leash and running up to other dogs and running up to other people. Um, we just had Mavi here the other day. He was known for running up to people on the trail. Random people, these are people he, they don't know. He would run up to people and jump up and bite at their clothes, bite at their jacket, rip—he ripped a hat off some lady's head.

Um, guys, no, like I understand your d—like you feel like your dog needs exercise and you're trying to do what's best for your dog. Trust me, letting your dog off leash with bad behavior, with if they're not reliable coming back to you and all this stuff, that is not what's best for your dog. What's best for your dog is to be on a leash, take 'em for a walk.

Holy cow. <laugh> Right? Or like Susie that we just had here, she was known for running up to other dogs and they would almost always have a squabble. Um, it's just not worth it, guys. Don't do it. And I, I think we pin ourselves into this box where we feel like we have to, we have to let our dogs run. We have to get our dogs off leash. No, you don't have to. In fact, I would view it completely as the opposite. You can't, you cannot until they're properly trained, which means not just teaching obedience, but adding the accountability. It's absolutely necessary.

11:00 — Kati distinguishes obedience with accountability from behavior modification targeting unwanted actions.

Okay? But so that is the most basic training in the world. That's obedience with accountability, okay? And by the way, your obedience counts for almost nothing until you add that accountability, which is kind of a nice segue into the behavior modification piece, right?

Because we were just talking about dogs that have some behaviors we don't necessarily really care for, especially, you know, running up to people and like biting at their clothes, right? So, but here's the thing. In those situations, you can't rely on obedience, right? So if I have a dog that's running up to people and jumping and biting at their clothes, right? So just using Mavi as an example, but it could be any bad behavior, the answer to that is not a good recall. Yes, a good recall is necessary if you wanna have your dog off leash.

But the, that doesn't fix this problem. What fixes this problem is making it extremely uncomfortable to go run up to people and jump and nip at their clothes, right? So there's a conversation to be had there, and it's so important.

Um, just calling your dog back. See, that is the equivalent of asking your dog to sit at the door. Well, it's worse, right? Because the behavior is somewhat worse. <laugh> But, but it's the it for the same reason that we don't, we don't tell dogs to sit at the door. Guys, why not? Well, because I don't wanna have to tell my dog anything at the door. I don't wanna have to tell my dog every time we go to the door, hey, be good. Hey, be polite. Hey, be good. Hey, be polite. Can you be good?

Can you be polite? Can you, we don't do that here. We have expectations, which means I'm going to tell you when you're too forward at the door, you're crowding the door, you're spring-loading at the door, you're moving through the door, any of those things, I'm gonna let you know because it's gonna be uncomfortable. And when you don't do those things and you're very polite at the door, I'll let you know that too. Hey, good job. Good, okay. So there is a huge difference between setting an expectation or just asking your dog to perform a trick every time they're about to do something bad.

And you can see how one results in a much more respectful dog, who also, by the way, is just much easier to manage, right? Because you don't have to manage them. They now just make good choices.

So it's draining for the owner every time we go to a door. I have to pay all my attention to the dog. I have to tell 'em what to do. Um, you know, every time we go out on a trail, I need to watch for people and dogs, and I have to call him back and all these things. And it's like, no, you need to teach your dog not to be a prick. <laugh> So that, my friend, is behavior modification, right? It's like unwanted behaviors go away 'cause we attach negative consequences to them and we set expectations.

So avoiding those conversations will never result in modified behavior. Guys, what it will result in is maybe your dog kind of listening sometimes and performing whatever silly trick it is you ask them to do in those pivotal moments. But without a doubt, sometimes they're not going to, and it's gonna get by you, right?

You're not gonna see the person coming, or you're not gonna get the right sit at the door or whatever it is. And, and it is just, you live your whole life that way and things don't change. You need to set standards and expectations, and you need to have those difficult conversations with your dog where it's like, no, I'm not going to read you an instruction manual every time we go to a door or every time we're out on a trail and someone comes along. Now there are some dogs that are highly reactive, and I'm not really talking about them.

15:00 — Kati distinguishes pushy behavior from serious reactivity and describes correcting unwanted actions while rewarding…

Those dogs are work. Um, at least sometimes they are. And sometimes that lasts a little longer and it takes a little longer, and we're gonna get into that in a minute.

Um, but dogs that are just clowns, like everything's a game. They just, they like to be pushy. They like to use people as their own personal toy. Um, that's a hard no <laugh>, okay? So the command, the obedience is nice and great and necessary, but it is not the thing that fixes unwanted behaviors, okay? That's behavior modification. And that requires some direct conversations with the dog about those behaviors in addition to the obedience piece, right? Correcting unwanted behaviors and then cementing and rewarding better behaviors. And I, for one, really, really enjoy that. Not because I'm sadistic and I like correcting dogs, but because, again, I've said this a bazillion times, that information is just hard to find.

And it's what everybody I meet needs help with. Everybody I meet needs help with this. Nobody is doing it. Nobody is good. Some people are trying, but no one's good at it.

Um, there's so much conflicting information out there, there's so much false information out there. And it is the thing that is lacking in almost every human-dog relationship. When I meet people, their relationship with their dog is almost always wildly imbalanced. And there's tons of excitement and there's tons of play and there's tons of food and there's tons of affection and there's tons of freedom, right? And there's nothing else. There is no discipline, there are no boundaries, there are no consequences, there are no corrections, there is none of that. There's no structure, right? The dog's fully autonomous and everything is fun and games, fun and games, fun and games, fun and games.

And sometimes this creates a dog who's just out of their mind frantic, right? Whatever the worst stuff is that's in there starts to come out, they get really pushy.

Um, like those dogs that if you don't feed 'em fast enough, they jump up and they bump you with their nose or they nip you. Like, just feed me, just dispense. It's your job. Servant <laugh>, right? Um, so guys, you gotta balance things, right? It has to be, you have to have some expectations, you have to have some standards because if you don't, there really is no reason for your dog to listen to you anyway, right? But also you are not doing them any favors, guys. It is not kind to your dog. Just like it wouldn't be kind to your children either or anybody to live with.

No structure, no rules, no boundaries. I mean, that is insanity. It's insanity. And it leads to bad stuff because we would all be, if we lived with no structure, no rules, no boundaries. And some people more or less try to live that way. We would all be the worst versions of ourselves. <laugh>.

I mean, it would just be awful. Um, there has to be expectations on you. There has to be standards for you. There has to be, and there has to be for your dog. They're no different, right? And again, I always say this, they're just doing what comes naturally. Um, and yeah, sure, sometimes it's fine for your dog. Just be a dog. We're gonna get into that too. Um, you know what, maybe I'll even save that for another episode and I'll do that one next because that's a really common question I get because again, everybody I meet, guys, everybody, they need help with the discipline piece.

They need help with setting rules, setting boundaries, issuing consequences. People suck at that stuff. Like, no offense, I'm not picking on you, like, and I love my customers. I have the most fantastic clients. Um, but people just in general, we suck at this piece and I get it.

We love our dogs and we think of them as being like innocent and good and all these things that they're not <laugh>. No, I'm kidding. Like they're not bad. They're just, they're dogs, they're animals and they don't have the human stuff that you have. They don't have the prefrontal cortex stuff that you have. They're not thinking like you are thinking. Um, they're just doing what comes naturally. And you know, bullying, pestering, pushing around, around teething, like all these things come naturally to dogs just like they do to some people. And so they'll just do that, right?

And you just kind of become like the weakling littermate who deserves to be pulled over or used for fun. And it sounds awful, but it actually doesn't make your dog a bad dog. It's just dog stuff, right? But it's up to you to say, okay, like we're gonna stop sweeping it under the rug and we're gonna balance things and I'm gonna learn how to have boundaries and, and standards and like enforce them.

Because that's the other piece. If you don't enforce them, guys, they're not, they're not real rules. <laugh>, I always say they're rules in your head, right? They're not real. But, so that's the behavior modification piece is, uh, really has very little to do with obedience. So here's the thing, if you are a person who didn't want to teach your dog all that stuff, you don't want your dog to walk in a tight heel. You don't want your dog to lay on place for hours. You don't want your dog to know how to hold a down when someone comes through the door.

Here's the thing, you don't have to do any of that. You really don't. I mean, if you have a dog with some serious issues who's really, really has no respect for his own family, has aggressive behaviors, like we're gonna do all that stuff, like there, <laugh>, I mean we do all that stuff for most of our customers anyway.

But, um, you can't afford to skip that stuff because you need all the leverage you can get, right? But if you have a pretty good dog who just has a few bad behaviors, you don't have to do any of that obedience stuff. So I think that's a really good point that I'm not sure I've ever really articulated on the show before, but like no one really gives a shit. Like if your dog can sit or go to place or walk in a heel and if you don't care, guess what? You don't have to do it.

22:00 — Kati argues that door bolting and jumping can be addressed through consequences without teaching…

And you can still address the behaviors you don't like because they're unrelated, guys. You can teach your dog standards and you can tie negative consequence to unwanted behaviors without teaching any obedience at all. So let's say my problem is just that my dog bolts through the front door and they jump all over people. Well, I can fix both of those things with no obedience. None. You don't need any, there's no commands involved, right? Those are both conversations where it involves, hey, don't run through the door. There's a correction for that. Don't jump on people. There's a correction for that.

And guess what? You do that properly. You might have to do it two, three times, something like that if you do it right. And guess what? Your dog doesn't do that stuff anymore. And if you're happy with a dog who's pretty friendly, pretty laid back, pretty social, doesn't have any bad behaviors, really, right?

And you, you've knocked that other stuff out, well, good for you. Great. You probably still shouldn't take your dog off property off leash, right? Because they don't have formal training. Like they don't have a good recall, which I, I still think that's just non-negotiable. If your dog's gonna be off leash, you need to be able to call them back. And I'll never budge an inch on that. <laugh> Never. But my point here is behavior mod and obedience are not the same. And sometimes obedience is totally unnecessary for it, okay? But when we get into state of mind, obedience does become necessary.

So let's talk about that third category, which is state of mind training. And guys, this is my favorite stuff. Love the show? Well, I have great news. We are offering an inexpensive subscription to our new premium content. This is content that isn't available to the general public.

We make it just for our subscribers. We're gonna cover a variety of new topics in these episodes, and I think it's gonna be a ton of fun. So you can jump right down into the show notes to get that website address and then skip over there and sign up for this premium content. Just wanted to take a second to let you guys know about that. Thank you so much for your support. And now on with the show, <laugh>. You know, and it's funny because, you know, I'll talk on social media about the state of mind stuff that I'm doing with the dogs, and I think sometimes the owners get panicked because they seem to think that I am, I think there's something like dramatically wrong with their dog or that their dog is like, quote unquote, a really bad dog in some way.

And I don't at all.

This is just what I do. This is what I love to do is state of mind work. And so if your dog needs some of that, I get really into it. <laugh>, I get really into it. And you're going to, um, see that probably on, on my social media 'cause I, I like to do it and I like to show it and talk about it. But that does, I'm not gonna say require, but it's pretty darn difficult without any obedience foundation because you're really going to leverage that obedience to help chip away a state of mind.

25:00 — Kati frames fear, anxiety, aggression, and high reactivity as nervous-system issues requiring more than…

So when we are dealing with things that involve more nervous system, right? Dogs that are highly reactive, dogs that are aggressive, dogs that are fearful, dogs that have a lot of anxiety, like this is nervous system stuff. And it's not as simple as just correcting an unwanted behavior.

Yes, there will be some of that just like there is with all dogs. Um, but mostly when we're dealing with that stuff, we have a strong obedience foundation laid, right? And of course we overlay the e-collar. I'm sure you know that if you've listened to any of my other stuff or watched us at all, um, a strong obedience foundation. And then what we do is we're able to take the dog and go into whatever those triggering situations are, and we're going to leverage the obedience foundation in a way with the accountability in a way that basically, I'm gonna use an ugly word here, you ready?

Forces <laugh>. Everybody hates that word. Ooh, force. She's a force trainer, not a force-free trainer like me. <laugh>,

Yes, we use force here, guys. It's an ugly four-letter word. No, it's five-letter words. Oh, it's early, I get up early on Tuesdays, but it is an F word, the ugly F word in dog training, force. Um, <laugh>, okay, I'm way off track. I'm getting in the weeds here. Um, we take that obedience foundation that we have moved into non-compliance training, meaning we have added the accountability to it, right? We've taught the dog. This stuff's non-negotiable. When I ask you to do it, you do it <laugh>. And if you don't, I'm going to get you to do it with accountability, usually with e-collar stim or maybe leash stuff, just depending.

And we go into these triggering situations for the dog, right? So if you have a dog that's afraid of strangers, we're gonna go work around strangers, right? We're probably gonna start with it a little bit easier where we have more room at a park or a parking lot. But we're going to ultimately be working right in the mix where it's busy. We're gonna go to downtown Portland, we're gonna go inside of Tractor Supply where the spaces are tight, we're gonna go to the pet store, we're gonna do all these things where there are people because you're afraid of them.

28:00 — Kati describes using e-collar feedback to redirect attention from triggers toward maintaining a proper…

But now, instead of focusing on them—ready for the F word?—I'm going to force the dog to focus on a proper heel.

And guess what? Their brain can't do both of those things at once. So if you are skillful in the use of your e-collar, you'll be able to grab the dog's attention and pull it back to heel every time it starts to migrate. And a beautiful thing starts to happen where the dog starts spending time around triggers, not focusing on them but doing something else. And that something else is focusing on their commands and engaging with their handler. And after you spend enough time doing that, guess what happens? It starts to become normal and easy. So you see, forcing dogs to do things they're not comfortable with is for their own benefit.

Because a little bit of episodic stress going into a situation you find uncomfortable or having to do a command you don't want to do, having a, an uncomfortable correction sometimes because you don't want to do it. Those things are brief and fleeting, whereas just allowing your dog to stay fearful of people forever is insanely cruel because you can't eliminate people from the world. Guys, you can't modify the world and modify reality to fit the dog. Nature is pretty harsh. And guess what? Nature doesn't care. It's not going to modify itself for the benefit of your dog, okay?

Your dog has to fit into the world and they have to fit into your life and they have to be able to exist in normal reality, normal situations.

It doesn't mean they have to love it, it doesn't mean they have to be perfect, but they have to be able to at least tolerate normal everyday situations. And that will require the use of force, right? But ultimately in the end, most dogs, it becomes easy. And that's the magic. Like that's the beauty of it. That's why we do it. We don't do this stuff to be mean, to be bullies, right? Which is what other people would like you to believe. And there is a ceiling sometimes because we haven't gotten into this yet, but genetics play a role.

31:00 — Kati says genetics influence training effort, progress, and a dog's eventual comfort around triggers.

So how far your dog can go, um, how much work you're gonna have to put in, how much feedback you're gonna have to give them. Um, ultimately where they land and and their comfortability being in those situations, there's a genetic component that you can't do anything about. And there is no way to know until you just do the work and you take the dog as far as you can. But 99% of dogs can be incredible. Like so much better, so much better.

Some dogs do one eighties, some dogs do them right away. Some dogs it takes longer and some dogs they struggle a little bit maybe forever, but that's pretty rare. But that state of mind work, right? Is dealing with the stuff that's more nervous system related. And when we're doing that stuff, we are heavily leveraging non-negotiable obedience. Um, but we use it in a way that really desensitizes the dog to triggers. Um, 'cause here's the thing, the mind and the body are not separate guys. Not entirely. They're absolutely tied together, right? You get nervous in your mind, your heart speeds up <laugh>, maybe you get the nervous parts.

We have dogs that do that. Um, they are tied together, but it's not always that the body follows the mind, right? So if you listen, most people think that you think something or you feel something and then you do. And I don't think that's always true. Yes, it's true a lot for humans, especially when we're talking about again, that cognitive thought process, right? Like you think, you think, oh, I'm hungry, I want pancakes, and then you go make pancakes. But not everything is like that. Not everything is that simple or cut and dried.

I really believe, and I don't wanna get too deep in the weeds here again, but I really believe that emotion is largely like smoke to fire. Like it's a byproduct of the thing that's happening. I don't really think that emotion causes dogs to do things. Now when I say emotion, I use that term loosely because they, I don't think they have emotions like we do, right? 'Cause our emotions are tied to thoughts, and dogs, I think largely it's not, right? It's just a neurological process that's happening in the brain. And so there's an overwhelming kind of sensation, right?

That you could call emotion.

But I don't think that is the basis for their behavior most of the time, right? But most people have a pretty two-dimensional view of behavior and they think the dog feels this way. So they do this. And I just think that's the wrong approach. And even if you're right, it doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter. Um, 'cause ultimately at the end of the day, you can't like lobotomize your dog and do some magical brain procedure <laugh>. You make them feel different. Um, the only way that's going to happen is to make them do different and then the feelings can follow.

35:00 — Kati introduces advanced state-of-mind work using the example of a nervous dog lying down…

And we absolutely find that to be true. So here's some examples of some of our, um, more advanced e-collar work and state of mind stuff that we do, right? If we have a dog that's laying down but they're up on their haunches, that might be fine.

But if we're working with a dog who tends to be very flighty, very nervy, very stressed in a situation, and we put them in a down and they lay down like that where they're right up on their haunches, right? They could just spring up at any moment, we are going to ask them to roll those hips to the side and relax a little bit. And we're usually able to do that with just a little bit of really low e-collar stimulation, right? And some dogs in the beginning, we have to help them a little bit physically by showing them what to do.

Um, but not usually. You'd be surprised like how naturally they'd pick up on that. And so by helping that dog just pivot their hips to the side, they're now in a more relaxed position, which kind of tells their brain there's no immediate threat, right?

Because those are incongruent. If there's an immediate threat, if your life is in danger, you don't relax, you don't go into a vulnerable position like that. So if you can get the dog to do that, if you can physically manipulate them to do that, that increases the likelihood that their brain shuts off the whole threat anticipation business. Okay? Maybe not completely and maybe not immediately, but it's going to have a dampening effect on it. And so, and again, this is cumulative, right? So the more you do this stuff, right, we go out into places where the dog's little uncomfortable and we, okay, I'm gonna have you lay down.

I'm gonna have you pivot your hips to the side and just relax. And we're just gonna hang out here and see that nothing bad is happening, right? And I'm not gonna put tension on the leash. Um, I'm not gonna act nervous and anxious and pacing around, pulling on the leash. Uh, I'm not gonna be talking to you nonstop. I'm gonna be quiet, I'm gonna be calm, and I'm gonna be assertive, right? If I want you to do something, I'm going to tell you and you're gonna do it.

Um, and what we find is, is as we move through the program and we do more and more and more of that, the dog starts to exhale and it's so amazing. But that's not born of just obedience, it's obedience with accountability and knowing how to use it in a way that will help the dog. And there are some more subtle things too. So if you have a dog with a reactivity history, um, or who just tends to be really uncomfortable and you see them staring at the thing that makes them uncomfortable, tracking people or animals or bikes or whatever it is that makes them uncomfortable, we can actually use low e-collar stim to teach the dog to avert their gaze away from the thing that's causing them distress.

38:00 — Kati distinguishes casually looking at triggers from sustained staring, which she discourages in reactive…

And again, the dog's brain can't really be split like that, right? So dogs can't really react to things that they can't look at.

And that's why the key when we're dealing with highly reactive dogs is we don't let them stare at things. Not, not things that tend to be triggers anyway, right? If you're dog-reactive, you cannot stare at other dogs. Doesn't mean you can't look at them, but it should be a casual look and look away and no big deal. If you're staring at them, bad news, right? So we can use, and that's sometimes that's higher stim because they're so stimulated. But usually we have a dog that's laying down that's fairly calm, but we see them like looking at something in the distance, staring, kind of tracking it, their eyes are moving with it.

We can use e-collar stim, right? And it's gonna be at a level that's just low to maybe annoying and it's going to tell them, hey, why don't you peel your gaze away from that thing?

Now they don't know that, right? They don't necessarily, some dogs pick it up very naturally, very quickly. Other dogs, it takes us a little bit of time to teach them that. But when I say a little bit of time, guys, it's still usually one lesson. Like this is not something that takes forever. It takes a long time to rehearse it and have that cumulative effect, but just teaching the dog how to do it. So I had someone here the other day with a dog, I think I talked about this on a recent episode, who has, um, Mr.

Diggy has some TV reactivity and I was showing them how to teach him to avert his gaze so that they can put him on place in the living room, by the TV, and just run that TV all day, right? No, he's not gonna be there literally all day without moving. But when he's in the house <laugh>, he's mostly gonna be on place with the TV going, right? Because we're gonna fix that shit. That's why. But so now they're gonna have some tools to help him because he knows the place command, he's going to be held accountable for the place command and they can use lower stim to help him avert his gaze away from the TV.

Okay? If you have a dog that's frantic, is a busybody, can't shut off, we're gonna ask you to do lots of duration work where they have to hold a down, hold place, but it goes deeper than that, guys. 'Cause again, just commands won't fix this stuff, right? So you can put your dog on place and they can stay busy. What do I mean by that? Frantically sniffing, nibbling at the cot. Maybe you're softy that gives them a bone to chew on. It's like those are the things that avoid fixing the problem. So we're gonna teach your dog an off switch, right?

We're gonna really work on helping them calm down so they have to lay on place and they have to not do those things and not find ways to stay busy, stay concerned, stay excited, whatever the problem is.

And we can take it a step further, right? Maybe they're the type where every time they hear a noise, they perk up. Maybe their excitement is on a hair trigger and it's like, okay, well if I see my dog on place and you know, they hear a pin drop in the other room and those ears perk up, I can use really low e-collar stim to just tap, tap, get the ears to come down. This isn't a punishment, guys. This isn't a high correction. Dog's not jumping out of their skin. This is really low. I'm talking levels you can't even feel on your skin, okay?

And that's just those tiny moments that seem so innocuous that don't matter. That state of mind work where it's like, hey, don't worry about it. Like I know you have that radar running in the background all the time. Let's start to shut that off.

Let's start to turn that down a little, right? The e-collar becomes, and as you're moving through the program and doing this stuff, your dog is developing this really deep relationship with the e-collar like this, this amazing understanding of it. Like they become one with the e-collar, right? Like they just know when they feel it, it's like automatically a calming sensation. Now, yes, it can be punishing too, right? But they come to know it does all of these things and it's tied to their behavior and they know exactly what it's tied to and how, because you gotta be skilled when you're using it.

43:00 — Kati claims low e-collar stimulation can produce calming responses and describes a kennel example.

But this low stim will automatically start to generate a calming response. It's amazing, right? Your dog's in their kennel and they're a little too up and they're a little too like, "When are you coming to get me? When are you coming to get me?" A little tap, tap at a four—again, I can't even feel a four. And they just lay down and go and they fall asleep, right? So if you can start doing things like that with a dog that's afraid, with a dog that's anxious, with a dog that's a busybody, you start to help them turn all that down.

And I think it's one of the most amazing things we do that people miss. Like they don't get it <laugh> and I don't expect them to get it because like it's a whole other world and it's a world most people aren't talking about. But just so you know, if you didn't know, these are things you can do. Like if you have a dog with any of these issues, these are things you can do, um, that will really help you to cultivate long-term change. Not just some kind of a Band-Aid, not some kind of surface-level, like teach your dog to sit.

Um, this goes way, way deeper than that and it's really, really cool stuff. But so hopefully that kind of clarifies the difference between obedience, behavior modification, and state of mind work and how they're all kind of of tied together. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time.