Consultation Files: I’m Covered In Bruises Because My “Rescue” Dog Thinks I’m The Prey

00:00 — Kati opens with a trigger warning and asks listeners to subscribe.

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Hey everybody, this is your host, Kati Peppe. Before we jump in, I just wanted to take a quick second and remind you to hit the subscribe button because that helps us so, so, so much. We appreciate every subscribe and follow, and we have so much valuable information we wanna share with you. So we don't want you to miss an episode. Without further ado, let's jump in. Hey, thanks for joining me today, guys. How's everybody doing? I hope you're having an amazing day. I'm having a great day. Except, you know, there's another business in my building that plays really, really loud music, um, and they're using a lot of like, machinery and equipment and stuff that makes a lot of noise.

So their music probably has to be really loud if they're gonna hear it. And the truth is, I don't mind the music at all.

Um, it's totally fine with me even when I podcast. Uh, the mic, you know, cleans most of that up. You don't really hear it, I don't think. <laugh>, if you do, hopefully it doesn't bother you. Um, because when they shut off the dance studio next to me starts up. And so I always have somebody playing some loud music around here. Uh, really doesn't bother me, except today they have country going. So if you guys are listening to this, anything but country, like really, I sometimes you've got classic rock. Uh, sometimes you've got rap or electronic music, um, dance stuff, nineties music.

I love it. I love all of it except the country. I can't, I just can't <laugh> and I know a lot of people love country and I hope I don't offend you. Uh, nothing wrong with it, I just, I can't do it for some reason.

I think because when I was younger, my parents were big country fans and they just played it all the time, even when I didn't wanna listen to it. And so now I just have this association, like it's just being forced on my eardrums and I hate it. I don't wanna hear it <laugh>. Um, so that's what we've got going on here today. Um, and yeah, it's gonna be an exciting day. Draco goes home today. I'm excited for his go home lesson. Um, he's done really amazing and I'm getting ready for a vacation. So yeah, I'm in a great mood, <laugh>.

Um, the truth is though, when vacation's over, like I'm super ready to get back to work. Um, I really love it. So, but anyway, let's jump in and talk about what we're gonna talk about. I wanna talk about my recent phone consultation with somebody who has not signed up yet.

I hope they do. Um, but the stuff we talked about on the call, it's, um, of course every case is unique, right? So this case is no different. It certainly is an individual case, a certain, um, it's an individual, you know, issues that they're having with this specific dog and this specific household and, and, and family. But it, overall, the general overarching theme here is pretty common, especially with quote unquote rescues being the huge thing that they are now. Because what's happened really is we don't have a lot of dogs that need homes. And so they're being shuttled here from other places.

03:00 — She frames the consultation as an individual case reflecting broader patterns.

Um, a lot, a lot of dogs coming up north from down south, and a lot of dogs coming even from overseas. Now in other countries, uh, we get a lot of dogs that aren't even from here at all. Um, but so, you know, and that's neither here nor there.

We can talk all day about whether or not we should be doing that and blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, this isn't about that. This is just some of the common themes that we're seeing from, from these places that are adopting out dogs. So dogs that come up here from the south. Now, let me start by saying the same thing. I always say that you're probably sick of hearing me say <laugh>, which is that every dog is an individual. They're all unique, they're all different. And you can take two dogs that are from the same place and they can be very different.

You can take two dogs that are the same breed and from the same breeder and from the same litter, and they can be very different, right? But over time with experience, you do start to see correlations, patterns and increased incidences of certain things.

So what I've been seeing is a lot of dogs that come up here from the south, uh, number one, a lot of times they're not accustomed to living in a human household, right? Because they've been living on the street, they've been stray. It's warmer down there. It, you know, it's really common for a lot of folks to keep their dogs outside. It's easier for them to get away. It's easier for them to have accidental litter, litters, all kinds of stuff, right? So we see a lot of street dogs coming up here from the south, and also a lot of hunting dogs, right?

So, which makes sense, right? Hunting is obviously it's a big thing all over the country, but it's a big thing down south. Um, you know, and obviously hunting dogs aren't usually kept outdoors. I'm not saying they're not usually secure, but I'm sure in a lot of cases they're not, right?

They should be, uh, I'm sure the more responsible folks have their dogs secure, but a lot of them aren't. And so we get a lot of dogs, uh, from the South that have this hunting instinct. Um, and not necessarily saying that they came from somebody that was breeding hunting dogs, but I think in a lot of cases they did. Um, and probably in some cases they don't. And it's just a natural, um, natural instinct due to their, their breed. Um, you know, a lot of terriers and things of that nature. So my most recent phone consultation, um, was a really nice lady who has adopted, uh, what they called the Beagle mix.

06:00 — The consultation concerns a woman who adopted a dog labeled a beagle mix.

And it, it does look like it's probably a beagle mix, but the beagle, honestly, I think takes a backseat to, um, the other breeds that may be in there. So looked very kind of terrier to me in the face almost Jack Russell.

Um, they told her fox hemp, I don't know, but neither here nor there. But you could see it, you know, you could see it in, in their build and her face, you could see the drive in her eyes. So you can tell a lot from a picture, which is funny. I I will often ask people to send me a picture, um, depending on what our phone conversation was about, just so I can see the dog, because, um, although you can't be a hundred percent sure, right? And judge a book by its cover, I can often tell a lot by looking at a picture.

So I, I often enjoy getting pictures from people so I can see, uh, mostly what their dog's eyes look like, what the face in general. So she adopted this beagle mix, right? And this is a dog, um, where they don't really know the history, but was picked up on the street. So probably a stray dog who knows where it came from, or if it was born and raised on the street, we don't know. But most likely this is the first time the dog has had to live in a human household.

And people, you know, when they quote unquote rescue a dog, they're not expecting it to be all cupcakes and rainbows. And she told me she wasn't expecting that. Um, most people are expecting to have some obstacles and things they have to help the dog with, and they're ready and they're committed to do that. Um, she gets the dog home and the dog, you know, is settling and okay, but there are some red flags, right? So as the dog starts to get comfortable, some of this drive is becoming more apparent. Um, she's very, very mouthy, you know, biting and nipping, and it seems like it comes from a playful place, but sometimes she's kind of unsure, which makes a ton of sense to me, and we'll talk about that.

Maybe you've seen this with your dog. Um, but she's covered in bruises, right? So it's like this is something that actually needs to change.

And so what will happen is if she's petting the dog, sometimes the dog will get too stimulated and that will trigger the mouthiness and the biting, or, but sometimes she might just be sleeping and she doesn't even dare to move, because if she moves, it might trigger the dog, um, to become aroused, to become stimulated and start like tracking and, uh, biting. And she'll go after her toes and she's, you know, she's tried all the stuff people try, right? All the stuff you find online, all the garbage about redirection and, and toys. And, and she'll stick a toy in her mouth, and sometimes that'll work for a minute.

09:00 — Redirection and toys interrupt the biting briefly before the dog resumes targeting the owner.

But generally, the dog just loses interest in that, doesn't want the toy, she wants the warm body <laugh>. And then that's instinct, guys, that that is a hunting dog, right? Give me the warm body. And what will happen is she likes to go after the feet and the toes. So if this person sits like Indian style, right? Like on top of their feet, the dog will burrow their head right down into their legs trying to get to those feet. Um, and you can picture it, right? It's like a dog going into a burrow in the ground or in a tree just trying to get that vermin.

And you're seeing this play out with the owner.

Um, so very, very real thing. And not livable. Not livable. And for all the folks that say do your research, it's like, okay, but sometimes we don't know what the breed is, and sometimes it just doesn't matter. So what happens to the dog that no pet home wants because it's a hunting breed or it has hunting instincts, but no hunter wants because it's not quite right for the job. What happens to those dogs? And I'm not saying that any particular outcome is right or wrong, but these people that sit on their high horses and blame the owners for not doing their research are the same people that will turn around and bash you for not adopting the dog that's sitting in the quote, unquote rescue in the shelter.

Same folks, right? So you can't do anything, right? Um, you're always, you're always in the wrong, in their eyes.

But anyway, <laugh>, don't get me started, right? Um, so that's what she's experiencing, um, with this dog. And then, so this sounds like a really confident drivey dog, right? With these hunting instincts and going after her owner. And surely her owners tried to redirect her and her owners probably expressed some displeasure, right? Because this gets frustrating and irritating and maybe even scary. And I am sure she's tried to set boundaries. I'm sure she's said no, I'm sure she's used a firm tone. Um, and clearly it doesn't work, right? But what might surprise some people is if she takes this dog outside the dog, cowers, right?

If they're gonna go for a walk, she can't really take her for a walk because she tucks her tail, she puts on the brakes, she's really uncomfortable and doesn't wanna go. We see this combination a lot, a lot. Um, and it's, it's difficult to articulate, but it does make sense to me. If you've worked with enough dogs, you start to see, um, this pattern, right? Where there's this personality type, there's this genetic, um, sort of <laugh>, I don't know what to call it, but you get a dog that is actually at its core, really uncomfortable, really unsure, right?

12:00 — Kati describes dogs whose strongest instincts emerge only after they become comfortable.

Maybe we can use the word anxious. Uh, just really unclear, uncertain, and uncomfortable all the you's, right? You, you, you unsure, uncertain, uncomfortable. I'm sure I'll make something out of that. It's very clever.

Um, and what happens is once they're in an environment or with a person and they start to get comfortable in that environment or with that person, then you see all the stuff rise to the surface, right? And you see all the natural instincts that without direction and instruction or rules and boundaries that are actually enforced, um, you're going to get the dog in its most natural state, which for this dog is, um, the, the hunting, the driveness, the overstimulation, the over arousal, the pushiness. Uh, but then you take the dog somewhere where they're uncomfortable, and right away they regress right back to that nervy uncertain state.

And we, we tend to see those two extremes actually go together, which seems confusing to people 'cause they seem opposite, but they're really not, right? Because what you're seeing in both situations is a dog that doesn't know what the hell they're supposed to be doing, what the hell's going on? <laugh>, where am I supposed to put all this drive and energy? Who is running the show? Who is calling the shots? Who is making the decisions? What should I expect? What am I supposed to do, right? The dog doesn't know. And so when you put them in a situation where they've gotten comfortable and they've gotten used to it, you see all the natural instinctual behaviors.

And then when you put the dog in a situation where they're uncomfortable, you see all the nervousness, you see the anxiety and discomfort. And so what happens is, if we want to have a happy medium, if we want to temper both of these situations, right? Because you've gotta scale, basically, that is just dramatically tipped,

Right? So on the one hand, you've got the really confident dog who's being pushy, who's biting, using their teeth, treating their owner like a squirrel. And then on the other hand, you've got the dog who's too terrified to go for a walk. So that scale is just way tipped. So if we're gonna balance that out, what we need to do is we need to work on structuring this dog's whole day, whole life and changing that state of mind by training, right? Teaching the dog, first of all, all the basics. And this is so important because the relationship this dog is developing, she hasn't had the dog long, but the relationship that they're starting to build is not a good one.

15:00 — The same dog that bites intensely is also too fearful to walk comfortably outside.

This is not a good dynamic at all. Um, and she knows that. And uh, it sounds like she's actually doing a lot, right? She can't really use her kennel right now because the dog screams uncontrollably and she doesn't know how to stop it.

And sure, I could just tell her, and a lot of times I do give people tips for this kind of stuff when we're on the phone. Um, but in her case, I think it's going to be a little bit more complicated. Um, not necessarily, but she's got a very strong drivey persistent kind of dog. And it's probably not gonna be as simple as just putting them in the kennel. And bonking crate probably gonna be a little bit more in depth than that. Um, and it might be as simple as an e-collar correction, right? But it might be a lot of experimenting with levels and, you know, important for us to be consistent with our sequence.

So the dog learns what's happening and why. Um, so something I think she should really get some hands-on help with, because that kennel's gonna be so, so, so critical for them.

But the relationship they're starting to build is not a good one. And what happens is, too, it gets in the way of you bonding with your dog. So nobody gets a new dog to be all stressed out by them, right? Again, most people aren't expecting it's all gonna be rainbows and unicorns, but the long-term vision is, Hey, I'm committed to this dog. I'm gonna do what I have to do to help them and to train them and to get them settled and comfortable and make them the best version of themselves. And we all believe that that's what we're going to do.

And then sometimes we get the dog and we can't figure out how to do it, right? And so that's a hundred percent their situation, but if things continue down this path, it could get really, really ugly, right? And like I said, sometimes she feels like the lines are blurred between, is this play, is it not play? And that's because let's not forget what play is. Guys play is pretend fighting or pretend killing, right? So she's essentially the prey right now she's the toy. But if a dog gets aroused and excited and drivey enough, those lines can become blurred.

So sometimes you can have dogs that are playing and it starts out as play, and it doesn't end that way. Not all dogs, some dogs, right? Especially when we're dealing with these deep seeded genetic, um, propensities.

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And now on with the show, right? You have a pit bull who up until now has gotten along great with dogs, but suddenly right around the time they're coming into maturity, they're playing with a dog. Especially if it's a small dog.

And I'm not saying all pit bulls, some of them, this would never happen again. They're all individuals, right? But this is a common occurrence. We're not rare anyway, playing with a dog, especially a small dog, and they're running really fast and all the chemicals start flooding the body, and now the arousal is peaking and suddenly instincts and drives kick in that may not have before, and suddenly we're not playing anymore. It's real, right? We're, we're out to kill the small dog. Stuff like that happens. Um, or even if you just have two dogs that are equally sized playing together, that stimulation gets too high and it starts to cross over that line between play fighting and real fighting.

And suddenly dogs get so aroused, right? I I compare them to drunken frat boys. It's like they're too intoxicated, right? And then, then somebody makes some kind of jab that offends the other one. Someone says or does the wrong thing and suddenly the other one starts throwing punches and now we're off to the races, right? That sort of stuff happens with dogs. It's not exactly the same, but it's the same phenomenon, right? But your dog is drunk on adrenaline. Your dog's drunk on arousal. And what happens when people are drunk, their judgment is off. They do things they might not ordinarily do.

Um, all the protective fences come down, right? It's like Jurassic Park and the fences are off <laugh>. Well, so as her dog gets older and gets more comfortable with her, this situation is not going to improve. Not without some intervention. Um, so the hope is they do do a program, because what we would do is we would take the dog and we would start from scratch. Um, I recommended a four week program for them just because her dog is living in a human household for the first time now. And there's so, so, so much that needs to be done in terms of building the dog's confidence, teaching them their obedience, teaching them about eco, teaching them about respect for humans and how to interact with humans.

21:00 — She warns the behavior will worsen as the dog matures and becomes more comfortable…

And then passing this over to her owner and teaching her owner all this stuff and getting them to go home and build something new before it gets outta control.

But so many, so many, so many valuable things, um, that we could teach this dog that would make her life so, so, so much better, right? And that's how we do it. All the basic obedience overlay the eco, right? The stuff takes time. So our most, most basic program guys is two weeks, right? And it's like, that's really barely enough time for us to lay a pretty solid eco foundation with your dog and get them really understanding it and responding to it, um, and getting it right. So if you have a dog who's like at ground zero, hasn't even lived with people before, two weeks is not enough.

So we don't take those dogs for two weeks. Sometimes we will take reactivity and behavioral cases in for three weeks.

Um, but the more obvious it is that we're dealing with, um, genetics and drive, especially hunting, hunting stuff, uh, nervousness, really recommend four weeks. Neither here nor there. We're gonna do the same thing either way, right? But it's like, Hey guys, if it's in the budget, like, and you have a dog like that, do a four week board and train, right? It with me. Anyway. I don't know what other people's programs look like, but um, 'cause we're gonna start from scratch and we don't wanna rush into the more advanced stuff. It's really important for that foundation to be solid.

And your dog needs that. They need to learn the really basic stuff. Like this is a leash, and this is how I respond to a leash. This is what the word sit means. This is what the word down means. This is a kennel. And like, I have to be calm and quiet in there, and I have to come in and out respectfully, and I have to receive my food respectfully, and there's a certain way that I'm expected to behave at the door. Like, these things take time and repetition to really become natural.

24:00 — She defines anxiety as uncertainty and says repetition builds respect, confidence, and predictability.

And those are the things that are going to help the dog be less anxious and more respectful, right? Because what is anxiety besides question marks, really? That's what it is. And so what people don't understand is it's so counterintuitive, is the more clarity you give the dog with expectations, with boundaries, with rules, with commands, with instruction, um, all these wonderful things, you're eliminating uncertainty, you're eliminating question marks. Suddenly the dog can exhale because they know, they know what's happening. They know what their role is, they know what to do. Think about what an amazing shift that is in your world, and then we teach the owner everything, and then we can bring them together and send them home with the tools and the skills to build something that is worlds better than where they were going.

Worlds better. And I think the hardest part of all of this for me is that the people, not always, but there's a very, very high rate of not following through. Like the people that really need it the most, they usually don't sign up. And I get it because number one, if you, if you're one of the people that need it the most, it's more expensive. It's more time away from your dog. It, it's more everything, right? Um, but also I think sometimes people are embarrassed by their dog's behavior or they're worried. I had a woman recently who was very worried about her dog being painted as a bad dog.

Do I think there are dogs out there that qualify as being called bad dogs? I mean, yeah, I guess so. But at the end of the day, dogs just don't have a moral compass, right? They can't be good or bad. All dogs just do what comes naturally unless you teach them something else. And sometimes you can't, right? So let's just acknowledge that right now. Sometimes you can't, sometimes you have a dog and their brain is just wired to be so intensely aggressive and sometimes it's seemingly random and you can't make the dog safe enough, right?

And no dog's perfectly safe. It's about making the dog safe enough. And sometimes you can't. And it's like, I guess, yeah, you might call that dog a bad dog, right? But it's again, like I said, they don't have a moral compass. They just are who they are. They're born how they're born. And sure you can teach them things, but you're not gonna be able to save them all. You're not gonna be able to make them all safe enough.

But most of, like the dogs I'm talking about right now that just have hunting instinct in their blood, that doesn't make 'em a bad dog. But the, that, that doesn't mean the behavior's not unacceptable. It is like you can't live with a dog like this. You can't, has to change, right? And the people who need it the most tend not to sign up, which is heartbreaking, but it is what it is. You can't make them, or, you know, they'll kind of go on a journey, right? And they'll try some other stuff because people still have it in their head that real training with real rules, real consequences is mean that it's bad, that it's damaging or that it's, it's for quote unquote bad dogs, right?

Nobody wants to see their dog as a bad dog. Of course they don't.

So they're not gonna sign up for training if they feel like it means their dog is a bad dog. It's some kind of admission that they have a bad dog. It's not. Training is for all dogs guys, right? But the more help your dog needs, obviously the more intense of a program they need. Um, but you know, it's partly, it's just counterintuitive too. Especially if you have a dog that's dealing with separation issues, nervousness, fearfulness, like naturally it's counterintuitive and more difficult for humans to say, oh yeah, I'm gonna sign my dog up and we're gonna punish some behaviors.

That's not all we do, by the way, but that's what everyone focuses on. And it is important. And it, it's true. We, we will do that, right? Because that's not all we do. We do so much more.

But yes, we're not gonna leave out the feedback where we tell your dog, Hey, that thing you just did, you can't do that. We're, we're gonna have those conversations. Those are important. Without that, you're wasting your money, right? But so sometimes people will go on this journey and they'll try some other training first because it sounds extreme, or like it's for bad dogs, right? Or it just feels uncomfortable and they just don't like it. So they'll go on this journey and they'll do some lessons somewhere else, probably purely positive lessons. Um, maybe they'll hire someone that calls themself a balanced trainer.

But you know, they'll often use techniques that I just don't think are practical to pass on. It's not that they don't work, right? It's like, yeah, do that with your dog. That's great. It's kind of like Caesar Milan stuff, right? It's not that it's not effective, or dog daddy, if you watch dog daddy, um, a lot of the techniques he uses, yeah, they're great, they're effective, but it really requires like transforming the human into a different human into like a dog trainer, right? And not everybody wants to become a Caesar Milan.

And so they'll, they'll try all of those different things, right? And, and they cover things like leash handling and your energy and your body language. And, and those things are all true. And that's great, but at the end of the day, most people can't do it. And also it might just not be enough, and it takes longer. Even if you are good at it and you're, you know, you're a natural and you're able to adopt, that takes longer and you might never get there. It might not be enough. Um, but so they go on this journey and then I'll see them, you know, a year later they'll circle back <laugh> and they're ready to do the training.

Um, but your dog, like I said this in a recent episode, they don't live that long, guys. It's like, you gotta take a leap of faith and be like, yeah, I'm ready. I don't wanna waste time. Like I got this dog. We're not off to the best start.

Like if you can relate to this, if this is you or someone, you know, it's like, don't waste your time. Like you gotta get off on the right foot stat, right? It's almost like oil and water and you can't bond with your dog. And I know that because I've been there. So if you listen to my first episode ever, I talked about the puppy I got, um, and I had all these high hopes and these visions and these dreams, and it wasn't happening and I could not bond with her. And I was so angry about it and so sad.

32:00 — Kati explains that constant biting prevents the owner from forming a bond with the…

And people are ashamed to admit that. But of course, you can't bond with your dog every time you interact with your dog. They're biting you. How do you bond with that dog? <laugh>, you can't, right? But things can be so, so, so much better. Um, and you know, and the basic framework really is the same for every dog. But by laying that solid foundation and teaching that eco communication and teaching the expectations, the rules, the boundaries, and balancing that with fun, affection and, and all the good stuff, you can start to see that scale level out, right?

And so that's what I wanna do for these folks, and I really hope, um, I hope that they see it through. I think it would be amazing. And these are my favorite cases, by the way. Cases like this, um, really, really gratifying to be able to, you know, take a dog that was living on the street, fending for itself, didn't know where its next meal was gonna come from, um, never knew the, uh, the pleasure of like a bond with a human right. And being spoiled <laugh>, um, take that dog and actually turn it into, not really turn it into, right?

'cause I can't really change who the dog is, but I can change its worldview. We can start to rewire its brain and its nervous system to, um, take it down a notch and see humans a different way and see its world a different way.

And over time, everything gets a little easier, a little easier as you chip away. And dog will get to experience things that never would've been able to, right? And the, the human will actually be able to, um, have less stress. <laugh> not have to plan every little mundane thing around the dog, right? Because the dog can't be alone and the dog isn't good with other dogs and the dog isn't good with people and the dog's afraid of this and that. And the dog will go after your toes and, you know, whatever the case may be, um, that can be better.

So if you're rescuing a dog, you should be ready, quote, unquote rescue, right? You should be ready, um, to deal with potentially the worst case scenario because she didn't know any of this stuff about this dog. And it may be the rescue didn't have the dog long and maybe that they didn't know, but a lot of times they conceal it or they don't wanna know, they don't wanna find out, right? Because their job is just to adopt out as many, many dogs as possible. Um, and it doesn't go as well if you're like, well, this dog has this problem and that problem and that problem, that problem, especially if then they're gonna follow that up with, oh, and we really don't allow you to do any training with the dog that would actually fix any of it.

Which a lot of them do that too. Don't wanna paint them all with the same big broad paintbrush, but most of them are that way. Um, if you're working with one that's not, you're very lucky. And I would encourage people to go there. If you're going to rescue a dog, adopt a dog from a shelter, go to one where they actually support good training, which means training. That's not just rewards training, that utilizes the whole spectrum of consequences depending on what's happening.

If they are against that, if they're opposed to that. I wouldn't give those folks any money, just my opinion. <laugh> just my opinion. But hopefully these guys sign up. Um, I would love, love, love to get my hands on that dog. I think, uh, we could do some amazing things. So stay tuned, um, in case they do, right? Because I will share of course, um, with their authorization on social media and it'd be a good time. But if you, if you can relate to this, um, if you have a dog like this, if you know someone that has a dog like this, it probably can be better, right?

There's never any guarantee, but it probably can be better. Um, but you don't wanna waste months and years, um, barking up the wrong tree, <laugh>, so to speak. Hey guys, thanks for joining us today. I really hope you enjoyed the show. If there's a specific topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly via email or fan mail. Just jump down into the show notes. That information will be there for you. I really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for supporting the show and I look forward to next time.