Stop the Trade Game: How to End Bribes, Teach “Out,” and Fix Resource Problems

00:00 — Kati Peppe introduces Diamond Canine Dog Training and the podcast’s focus on off-leash obedience…

Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us for another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm your host, Kati Peppe, and I own Diamond Canine Dog training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training for off leash obedience and behavior modifications, so helping people stop behaviors they don't like. Barking, jumping, getting into the trash and more serious things. Leash, reactivity, aggression, resource guarding. And we love working with nervous and fearful and anxious dogs as well. We also offer puppy programs, so that's who we are and what we do. And this podcast is just our way of sharing everything we see and do and learn every day with you guys.

Speaker 1: Everything we're doing with the dogs and with our clients. And our hope is you'll get something out of this that will help you with your own dog. So don't forget to hit subscribe to help support the podcast. Let's dive in. What does it look like for you when your dog gets a hold of something that you don't want them to have? Or maybe they have something that they're allowed to have but you need to take it away for some reason, like a bone or a toy or whatever the case may be. Is it easy for you to get the item away?

Speaker 1: Will your dog guard it? Will they hang onto it fiercely <laugh>?

Speaker 1: Will they just not give it up? Will they play keep away? That's a really common common strategy, uh, and I think sometimes that's just some additional fun <laugh> for our dogs to play the keep away game, but it's really important for you to be able to get things away from your dog. What we see people resort to time and time again is playing the trade game with their dog, right? So the only way to really get something away from them if it's something they want is to offer them something else that they like better. Does that sound familiar?

Speaker 1: <laugh>, this is a really common strategy and let me just preface what I'm going to say with you. Do what you gotta do, right? So if that's the only tool you have in your tool cabinet right now, I'm not saying don't do it, but I'm saying don't get complacent with that.

Speaker 1: It should be better than that, right? You should be able to get things from your dog. Um, I will say though, you know, if you just have a dog that's playing keep away, uh, or having fun playing tug of war with you versus giving up the item, that's one thing. If you have a dog that's actually guarding resources that's actually threatening to bite you or is biting you, um, that's actually much more serious, of course. And so definitely, uh, more stress on those cases, more, more of a necessity for you to, uh, find a better solution rather than bargaining with that dog.

03:00 — Keep-away differs from resource guarding, which can involve growling, snapping, biting, and serious safety…

Speaker 1: So let's talk about what happens when we play the trade game with our dogs. So essentially, if you think about it, if your dog has a resource that they don't wanna give up and they know that you want it, right, and they're not giving it to you right off the bat, we go, okay, well clearly there's an issue with the chain of command, right?

Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your dog. This is totally normal behavior. That creaking noise, by the way, is like my cat opening up the bathroom door. Um, it's totally normal for your dog to wanna hang on to resources and not give them up. Very natural behavior. Even guarding is a natural behavior. But that doesn't mean that it's a good idea. It doesn't mean that it's acceptable, certainly doesn't mean that it's safe if you have a dog that's guarding. Um, and what we see time and time again is people resorting to this trade game by offering their dog something higher value, right?

Speaker 1: So if your dog has a toy that they don't wanna give up, uh, or they pick, you know, up a sock or something off the floor, whatever it is, in order to get that back, you gotta give them a cookie.

Speaker 1: You gotta give 'em a piece of bacon, right? Or, you know, whatever it is that your dog happens to love or that you have handy. And so essentially, think about this logically for just a moment. Like, take a lot of this stuff. If you just, you take a second to really think about it and parse it out about how we increase behaviors, how we decrease behaviors. Think about what we're doing in that moment when our dog knows, right? Even if you haven't taught them like a command to give you the resource, which most people have, but even if you haven't, chances are your energy, your body language, like your dog knows you want the thing that they have, right?

Speaker 1: That's why they're playing keep away. That's why they're guarding or whatever they're doing. They know that you want the thing they have and they're still choosing not to give it to you. <laugh>,

Speaker 1: Okay? So that tells us that there's definitely a discrepancy here in the chain of command from your dog's perception versus yours, right? Because you think, um, you're calling the shots and your dog says, mm, no you're not. Um, and so if you do break this down and think about it, I mean the way we generally increase behaviors is by giving a reward. So let's think about the sequence that's actually happening here. Your dog has a resource, they know that you want it, they choose not to give it to you, right? And that might look like just hanging onto it.

Speaker 1: It might look like putting their paw over it. It might look like playing, keep away. It might look like growling and guarding. Um, but whatever it is they're choosing not to give it to you. And then the next thing that happens is you produce a piece of bacon, right?

Speaker 1: That's the same as saying good dog. Even if you withhold the words good dog until after they give you the resource, it doesn't matter, guys, the second that reward appears, you're reinforcing the behavior, okay? So your dog chooses not to give up a resource that they know you want and then you immediately swoop in with a reward. So that's why we don't like the trade game. That's one of the reasons that's the biggest reason, right? Is because essentially instead of dealing with the issue, instead of fixing the chain of command, instead of fixing the perception, instead of garnering a little more respect from the dog, what we're doing is we're actually potentially rewarding, reinforcing, and increasing the precise behavior that we don't like.

07:00 — The trade game reinforces refusal because the dog declines, then receives the owner’s reward.

Speaker 1: And this is so, so common, um, with all positive reinforcement training, right? And again, love positive reinforcement. I'm not saying don't use it, we use it. It is the best way to build up behaviors, but that's exactly what you're doing there too. You're building up a behavior and unfortunately you might be building up the behavior that you mean to be reducing no good, especially if your dog is guarding. Imagine that someone has a dog that's growling at them, showing teeth, maybe even snapping or biting them, and they're bringing out food or whatever to bribe the dog to give up the resource.

Speaker 1: I can't imagine anything really more dangerous than a dog that is threatening a person and then immediately being presented with food. That's why bribes are no good, no good. But on top of that, you're also just avoiding having the discussion that you should be having with your dog, right? Which is, first of all, don't do that. Like if it's something your dog isn't supposed to have, that's a conversation that needs to happen, right? This might be something you gave them that you're just trying to take away. But if it's something that they stole, something that they're not supposed to have, you know, if they're chewing on your shoes, if they're grabbing socks out of the hamper, if they, um, sorry, lost my train of thought.

Speaker 1: Dogs started making noise in the other room. <laugh>,

Speaker 1: Right? But that's a conversation that needs to be had. If there's a behavior that just simply needs to be stopped in the first place, right? And if that's not the case, if it is something your dog's allowed to have and you just need to be able to take it away, then you should have a command for that, right? So we always say commands, don't fix problems, right? And that's why if your dog is stealing things out of the hamper, stealing your shoes, chewing your chair, like any of that stuff, we're gonna tell you, you're not gonna use a command for that.

10:00 — For allowed resources, teach “out” to mean dropping the item and moving away from…

Speaker 1: You're going to have that conversation directly with the dog about that behavior that says, Hey, you can't do that. That's so important, right? But the flip side to that is, if it is something that they're allowed to have right at your discretion, something you give your dog to chew on, something you give your dog to play with, but then you wanna be able to take it away, that's when you can use a command, right? Because the dog's not doing anything unwanted.

Speaker 1: You just wanna ask something of them. And so you should have a way to do that that the dog understands. And then you attach accountability to it. Meaning we use the out command here, right? So dog has a ball, dog has a bone, we need to take it away. We say out. And then the dog is required to drop that resource and move away from it. And if they don't, there is a correction for that right now that requires training. You can't start there. Your dog isn't gonna know what out means magically. They don't know English.

Speaker 1: You have to teach them. But whatever command you use, right? A lot of people use drop it. Um, I don't like leave it, but you can use any command you want. What we don't wanna see is we don't wanna see people using the phrase leave it or any phrase for that matter, to get their dog to not do behaviors that they should never do. Right? So if you never want your dog stealing socks outta the laundry, if you never want your dog barking at other dogs, if you never want your dog getting into the garbage or eating bagels off the street or whatever, then you shouldn't be using leave it or any other command for that, right?

Speaker 1: Commands won't fix your problems. Commands are a way of asking our dog to do something for us. They are not a way of telling our dog not to do something that we never want them to do,

Speaker 1: Okay? I never want my dog to pull me toward another dog. So if he does that, we're just gonna have that conversation. I'm gonna say no, there's gonna be a correction. It's that simple. When I'm not gonna do is leave it, leave it, leave it,

Speaker 2: Leave it, leave it.

Speaker 1: <laugh>, okay? That, and that's why, that's why we don't use commands. That's a thing I don't ever want my dog to do. So tell 'em <laugh>, right? And people will say, leave it. And then a lot of times they follow that with aro. So what are we doing? We're creating a cycle, right? Dog does the thing we don't like, then we can ask them to leave it, give him food. Dog does the thing we don't like, we can ask him to leave it, give him food. And so we're essentially rewarding, reinforcing, increasing the precise thing we don't want to see anymore.

Speaker 1: So there's no getting around it, there's no skirting around it, there's no teaching an alternate behavior. Keep it simple. Humans dramatically overcomplicate these things. And really it's like you just need to be honest with your dog, right? It's like stop beating yourself into the ground trying to teach your dog not to do something by giving him rewards. Stop beating yourself into the ground by trying to teach your dog not to do something through bribes and commands. And every means you can imagine, except just telling him not to do it in anymore with a correction, right?

14:00 — Effective correction follows a clear “No,” rather than occurring simultaneously with repeated commands.

Speaker 1: And there is a right and a wrong way to do that or an effective and ineffective way to do that, right? If you wanna be effective and efficient, you need to know what that process looks like. It's very simple, right? We always mark the behavior with a no and then we follow up after that, no, with a meaningful consequence.

Speaker 1: And that's gonna look different for every dog. But what we don't do is we don't use commands, we don't use bribes, we don't use, leave it, leave it, leave it. Um, if it's something our dog isn't supposed to be doing, we just tell 'em that, so then it will go away. And we don't have to keep draining our energy on the same thing. Think by the time your dog is an adult, all the behaviors that they're gonna try that we don't really like, that we don't want them to do, that drains our energy, that SAPs our strength, right?

Speaker 1: Even if they're seemingly minor and not a real big deal, they're, they accumulate, right? And before you know it, trying to take your dog places is just like, it is mentally draining. It does sap your strength because it's constant management, right? You have to constantly be telling your dog what to do. Do this, do that. Leave it, leave it, leave it. Sit, sit, sit. Ah, ah, ah. And it's like it could be so much easier and so much more enjoyable for both of you if we could just have this simple language with the dog and just give them the appropriate feedback that actually changes behavior for the long run that actually sticks, that actually makes a difference.

Speaker 1: So the next day is better and the next day is better and it gets easier and it gets easier.

Speaker 1: And before you know it, your dog is just naturally, I don't wanna say naturally, right? 'cause it's trained, but they're just easily doing the things you want them to do and easily not doing the things you don't want them to do, right? But if you use bribes, you stay stuck there and things usually just get harder. And that is why we don't do it, right? Nothing wrong with a reward. So for instance, your dog has a resource they don't wanna give up. You teach them the out command, right? Once they know it, there's a negative consequence.

Speaker 1: If they don't do it, if they do do it, you can absolutely reach into your pocket afterwards, give 'em a piece of food. Now, we don't usually recommend doing that forever with any command, right? Because we want to ensure there's no reliance on food, there's no reliance on the reward, right? But you can, you can reward your dog for making a good choice, but not until after they make it, right? If you're reaching for that cookie, you're reaching for that piece of bacon before your dog has given you the behavior that you want, then it's just a bribe.

Speaker 1: Can't get enough of this dog training stuff. Well, I have great news. We're going to start offering an inexpensive paid subscription where you can get access to our new exciting bonus content. It's just one more way that you can help support the podcast. But even if you can't do that, just leaving us a review and hitting subscribe is hugely appreciated. And of course, don't forget to tell your friends about the podcast 'cause you and I know they have issues with their dogs. And this way they won't have to get mad at you for saying it because I'm saying it <laugh>, thank you for being here guys and thank you for your support.

18:00 — Showing a cookie before saying “out” makes compliance dependent on visible food instead of…

Speaker 1: So if I grab a cookie and then I say out, that's cheating. 'cause if the dog does it, he's probably only doing it 'cause he can see I've already got the food. And again, you might then be inadvertently reinforcing the behavior you don't wanna reinforce. And people say, well yeah, but he dropped the resource. It's like, I know, but not until after the reward process was started, right? So I wanna see your dog with no reward in sight, respect the thing you ask them to do.

Speaker 1: And if they don't, if they choose not to, if they choose to ignore you, they choose to be non-compliant, they choose to blow you off and you reach for a cookie, then give the command and get the behavior. That's not a dog that's listening. That's not a dog that's in a respectful head space. And it's a dog that's going to do that behavior again next time because it worked out so well. They got to hang on to the resource right? A little longer. And then you pulled out a cookie and then they got to take their pick of which one they wanted.

Speaker 1: The resource or the cookie. I mean, fantastic. So we'll just that tug of war, that cycle will just keep going. So you gotta have that conversation with your dog directly about what is and isn't allowed. And you have to come to expect expectations, right?

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 1: Sure, take some time. Do some reps teach them the behavior? Of course. But eventually you have to expect it. And one of the biggest mistakes that people make is just that subtle mistake of reaching for a reward before it's time. So if you are going to reward your dog, which is fine, we're not opposed to rewards, right? Again, I don't wanna be reliant on him, I prefer not to use them often once the dog knows the command. But you can still use them sometimes, right? But keep 'em put away. Keep 'em in your pocket, keep 'em on the other side of the room, keep 'em in the cupboard.

Speaker 1: And after your dog gives you what you want, right? Without you having to ask five times. If you can ask once and you can get what you asked for, then say, good, and go get a treat, that's fine. That's a reward, that's not a bribe, right? But you also have to know what if there genuinely are no treats? What if you do that two, three times in a row row with no food? Will your dog still give it up

Speaker 1: Or will they decide, oh there's no food in this, I'm not giving it up. Right? So ultimately you wanna have that relationship with your dog where they will do what you ask them to do. It's so important, right? Dogs don't know what's in their best interest. And as much as people say their dogs are eager to please, like they're just not guys. Like your dog doesn't actually care if you're happy. They don't understand the gravity of like hurting somebody or having something they're not supposed to have and potentially having an impaction or whatever the case may be.

21:00 — Dogs repeat patterns that pay, so repeated trades can increase the frequency and intensity…

Speaker 1: Um, their dogs, right? And it's up to you to ensure that they will listen to you, right? 'cause you love them, you care about them, you know what's in their best interest and you know how to keep them safe and everyone around them safe. But if your dog won't listen to you, none of that will matter.

Speaker 1: And so using those bribes is just a bad idea. That trade game is a bad idea. 'cause it's gonna keep you stuck in that cycle and potentially even get worse. Making that behavior more frequent, more intense, making it harder to get things away from them. And that is no good, my friend. Another good example of that is redirection. So you know, you have a dog that is mouthy, nippy, especially puppies. We see this a lot and people just redirect them to a bone. It says not our favorite strategy. Yes, puppies need to teeth and they're still learning all kinds of stuff about how to moderate their, you know, bite pressure.

Speaker 1: We hear that a lot. But the fact is no bite pressure <laugh> is really acceptable on a human right. Um, and they do need stuff to chew on 'cause they are teething. And like I do get that.

Speaker 1: But it doesn't need to be you. And this is one of the things we do go after very early on with puppies. We don't wait until they're 6, 8, 10, 12 months old to tell them not to teeth on people, not to chew on people, not to bite people, snap at people, nip people, um, not to have fun tearing at people's clothes. Like this is a thing we go after right away there. There's no mouthing people. And we do that through a correction. We'll usually bunk the puppy. Um, I have lots of material out there where I'm talking about this.

Speaker 1: Lots of episodes where I talk about this and I believe we have some material on YouTube, uh, showing the process, right? Just you say no and then it's a bonk on the head with a rolled up cotton towel.

Speaker 1: A lot of people aren't very good at this because they're just far too gentle. Your dog's not made of glass. Yes, we want to use some discretion, right? You don't wanna actually harm your puppy. Like that is not the goal at all, right? But it should be alarming, right? It should be very attention getting. Um, it should make your puppy a little nervous, right? That that's the idea. Um, so if you do it right, if you do it properly, you do it firmly enough, puppy's gonna learn not to mouth you, right? And then after that, if you wanna redirect them to a bone to chew on, fine, right?

Speaker 1: But the thing is, everyone wants to skip that step where we actually tell them that mouthing behavior, it's not acceptable and it's not gonna work out well for you. You shouldn't do it. Everybody wants to skip that step and go right to the redirection, right to the give them a bone.

Speaker 1: And essentially what are we doing guys? Puppy bites. You puppy gets a bone, puppy bites, you, puppy gets a toy. I mean, it doesn't take a genius, right? And I'm not trying to insult anybody, but again, people just don't take the time. Like they just listen to the nonsense on the internet instead of actually using their brain. And I know most people out there are smart enough to come to this conclusion if they just stopped and thought it through, but they don't. We just believe what people tell us, right? And everyone tells you to do that.

Speaker 1: And so that just becomes the cultural norm and it's not correct. And I'm not saying that it never pans out. Um, some puppies, it really is just a, a mouthing sensation thing. And once they're done with their teeth coming in, like it's just not an issue anymore, right? But that's not because redirection worked with them. That's a behavior that was probably just naturally gonna subside anyway. But a lot of puppies, it doesn't, it doesn't subside and a lot of times it gets worse.

Speaker 1: And that's just not a relationship I want with my dog. I wanna get off on the right foot where we have some understandings where we have some boundaries, right? So I pick my battles with puppies. We're not gonna go around punishing everything, right? We use a lot of management, we use a lot of structure. We use our kennel, we use our leash, right? Puppies not running around, peeing on my floor, chewing on my shoes, none of that stuff. But the things that we don't wait on mostly are how they interact with people. I will give you love, I will give you play, I will give you food, I will give you affection, I will give you exercise, I will give you medical care.

Speaker 1: I will give you all of these things, right? And you'll get touch and you'll will have a good time, but you're not gonna put your mouth on me and you're not gonna jump all over me. And we're gonna start drawing those boundaries right away.

Speaker 1: And that's important. 'cause you don't want a relationship with your dog where they grow up knowing you as an entity with no boundaries. If you put a dog in with another dog, is that gonna happen? Hell no. That other dog is going to have boundaries most of the time, right? And that's why oftentimes dogs don't give other dogs the same level of crap that they do people. 'cause no dog is gonna go, oh, let me go get a cookie to give you, right? No, they're gonna turn around, they're gonna growl, they're gonna snap, they're gonna tell the dog off.

Speaker 1: But people will redirect, will bribe, will reach for a toy or a bone or a treat. And sometimes there might be a place for that. But usually it's when we're talking about building obedience behaviors, right? I'll use a food bribe if you will, quote unquote. But it's more of a lure, right? Luring the dog into position and then feeding, right? That's one instance. But when we're talking about stopping a behavior, no, no, no, no, we're just, we're we're going to have that conversation. And it's not the funnest part of training, but it's simple, it's straightforward and it's usually very brief.

Speaker 1: And once you've done it, you've done it once. The dog experiences that a few times, they know that's a boundary, right? And now you can move past that and you can build other stuff that you do. Like you can focus on the funner stuff, right? But now that's become part of your relationship where dog goes, oh, she draws boundaries. This is a boundary

Speaker 1: And that's a healthy good thing, right? But by trying to avoid having that conversation, we get too sucked into bribes, trade games, redirections, right? Always trying to use positive stuff and never trying to use negative stuff, which is childish. It's just not. It's just not how things work in reality. And we pay the price for it and our dogs pay the price for it because we usually end up at, at the very least, kicking the can down the road, dragging out these behaviors when we could just stop them. Um, but a lot of times we even make them worse.

29:00 — The episode concludes: correct forbidden behaviors, teach “out” for allowed items, and reward only…

Speaker 1: So no good. So no bribes, no redirection. If you wanna stop a behavior, have that conversation with your dog. If you wanna teach your dog to give up a resource for you, teach them a command to give up a resource and then hold them accountable for it. But if it's something your dog is never allowed to do, guys, just have that conversation with your dog. Learn how to mark and correct behavior so that you can eliminate it. And you don't have to nag, nag, nag your dog. That way you won't have your strength s sapped, <laugh>.

Speaker 1: And it won't be so draining for you to go places and do things with your dog. Um, 'cause they just won't need that feedback from you all the time. That constant nagging that constant direction because they'll just know what your expectations are. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. If there's a topic you'd like to hear discussed, you can send that to me directly at Kati at Diamond Canine dot com via email. So I will link to that email address in the show notes. Thanks for joining us today, guys. Thanks for supporting the podcast and I look forward to the next one.