The Top 10 Things to Consider About Dog Parks and Daycares

00:00 — Kati challenges the idea that exhausting a dog through parks or daycare automatically makes…

Speaker 1: A tired dog is a good dog, right? That's what everybody's saying. That's what everyone, that's what everyone tells me. So people are getting their dogs into daycares and out at the dog parks, they can run around, burn off some energy, let off some steam, and then they can go home for the evening, right? Dogs all tuckered out, they get it made in the shade. What are the pros and cons of this? We are gonna break down the top 10 things you should consider. Um, if this is your approach or you're thinking about this approach with your own dog, take a listen.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I am Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Biddeford, Maine. We specialize in eco training for off leash obedience and reliability as well as behavior modifications. So helping people stop all those unwanted behaviors. Simple stuff like jumping, barking, pulling on the leash and more serious stuff like resource guarding, separation anxiety, leash aggression, all that stuff. Uh, we also do puppy trainings. That's who we are and what we do. And this podcast is our way of sharing everything that we see and talk about and do and learn day in and day out with you guys.

Speaker 1: Um, this is the stuff we're doing with the dogs we have and the stuff we're talking about with our clients. So it's probably stuff other people are interested in too. Um, so that's who we are and what we do today. We're talking about daycares and dog parks. This is a wicked hu hot button topic guys. So, and I've talked about it I think plenty of times before. Uh, but here we are again. We're gonna revisit it, uh, because I think we have some, uh, new listeners and also it's just something I think that pays to hear again once in a while, um, because it's easy to get sucked into,

Speaker 1: Um, kind of the cultural norms and forget to think for yourself <laugh> and have that information, uh, handy in your brain to reference so you can make informed decisions, um, on your own about your dog's wellbeing. So, and I I will say anyone that listens to the show regularly or that knows me personally or, or has used us for training, um, already knows, like, uh, generally speaking, we're not very pro daycare and, and dog park. Um, and so mostly we're talking about the reasons why we take that perspective. Not to um, not to spoil the episode or anything, but I think a lot of you probably probably already know that.

03:00 — Kati asks owners to weigh daycare’s convenience against their dog’s health, wellbeing, and training…

Speaker 1: Um, we're not gonna take a big pro daycare dog care, daycare, dog care, daycare dog park stands here. Um, however, for some people, you know, it's what they wanna do. It's how they get their dog exercise.

Speaker 1: And um, some people only go when there's no other dogs or things of that nature. Some people, it's the only way they feel they can let their dog run because they don't have the off-leash reliability piece and they don't have a fence at home. So I guess in some situations maybe it is the way to go. I have some customers that work 24 hour shifts and they don't have anybody to help take care of their dog. Um, so unless they can find, you know, someone to hire to come at least walk the dog and take them out, um, at an interval that's appropriate, their dog goes to daycare.

Speaker 1: And so, I mean, some people feel kind of forced into, uh, this is the best option for us, but I urge anybody who uses these options to just give it some more thought, um, and really consider your dog and your dog's health and long-term wellbeing and also your training goals and, and all of that good stuff.

Speaker 1: But anyway, let's dig in. So we're gonna kind of go backwards here. We're gonna start with some of the simpler, more obvious ones. So number 10, disease and injury, right? So these are obvious <laugh>. So we would like to think like everyone gets their dogs shots, right? And it's easy to just sort of think that because you always get your dog their shots and everyone, you know, always gets their dog their shots. But no, not everybody gets their dog their shots <laugh>. So I've definitely had people sign up for training programs and when they show up with their dog, they do have the proof of the vaccines because I do require certain ones.

Speaker 1: Um, but they just went and got them at a rolling clinic the day before. And yeah, it could be that that was just the most convenient option. Their dog was due for their shots.

Speaker 1: They went to a rolling clinic. Um, but it's really unlikely. Chances are the dog just didn't have any shots until the day before. 'cause we're talking about adult dogs here. Um, and it's not an established vet, et cetera, et cetera. So most likely the dog didn't have their shots. Also, you hear all the time in the news about, you know, parvo, when there's parvo outbreaks, well, that stuff just doesn't happen if all the dogs are getting their shots. <laugh>, okay? So they're definitely not guys. Lots of people do not vaccinate their dogs. And if you hang out in a place, um, that's not a place where obviously there's anyone checking for that.

Speaker 1: Um, anyone can go and hang out at the dog park with their dog. Um, you're gonna get all sorts there, okay? You're gonna get all sorts. You're gonna get dogs that have never been to a vet and it tends to be one of the more prevalent places for dogs to pick things up, right?

06:00 — Dog parks can expose animals to illnesses because unknown dogs may have never received…

Speaker 1: Because there's a high concentration of dogs in one area and they're not all vaccinated. There's no doubt. Some of them are carrying things, whether it's serious things or less serious things. Nonetheless, there tends to be a high concentration of those <laugh> viruses and microbes at the dog park, uh, which makes sense. Uh, and then injury also, you know, whether it's just from running around in a large group of dogs, uh, with unbridled enthusiasm, <laugh> and impulses, right? Uh, but also of course, you know, fights and stuff can break out too, which is something we're gonna talk about in a little bit.

Speaker 1: Or just overstimulation. Uh, some, not all dogs play the same. There's different play styles. Some dogs are very rough. I've heard of dogs getting like their jaw stuck in other dogs' collars and all kinds of nasty stuff. So there's a reason that our local vet has a sign hanging up at the dog park.

Speaker 1: And that's because there's a good percentage of people that are leaving the dog park that need to go see a vet, right? So just think about that. Okay? So that's number 10. Number nine. Number nine. So you gotta think about patterning, right? 'cause we talk about how your dog learns and they learn through patterning. So think about what is the pattern when we go to a place like a dog park or the daycare, right? What is the sequence? What are the behaviors that my dog is doing? What loops are we completing in the brain over and over and over again wearing those neural pathways, making them habits?

Speaker 1: What's happening? What am I seeing? What am I doing? What is my dog doing? So first of all, when you're in a place like this, I have, I have a puppy that just came in for board and train and he is sleeping in the office with me.

Speaker 1: And he's just started dreaming. I guess he's making a lot of noise, a lot of squeaky noises. So it's a sleeping puppy. In case you were wondering. Um, you have no leash, right? So you might have a leash when you first get there, but the leash is going to come off. And by the way, it should. So if you're gonna put your dog in with a group of dogs, you need to remove that leash because the last thing you want, you're, you're gonna make things worse. If your dog is the only one on a leash, they're gonna feel stuck, uh, restricted.

Speaker 1: They're gonna feel sort of cornered in a way, right? And they can't really display their normal greeting behaviors or body language. Um, and it definitely makes things much more difficult for our dogs and makes them more insecure. So you're gonna take that leash off.

Speaker 1: So then, but then you don't have a leash, right? So you're relinquishing control. You can't pattern the things you wanna pattern, you can't give your dog any feedback with the leash. You can't control anything with the leash 'cause you don't have one. Um, you also have zero control over the other dogs, right? So you don't have any control over what the other dogs do. You don't know what they're gonna do. You can't control what they, what they're gonna do. Yes, hopefully if you are present, right? We're talking about the dog park. Like you're gonna advocate for your dog, I hope.

09:00 — Owners cannot control unfamiliar dogs’ behavior, even when they remain present and try to…

Speaker 1: Um, but even then, like you could be putting yourself at risk, right? So you have no control over what the other dog's personalities are, what their behaviors are, what they do. Um, so you're kind of at their mercy. You have zero idea as I just sort of mentioned about personalities and histories. So you don't know who's there, okay? And every day that you show up, it could be different, right? You could go there a hundred days in a row and things are okay or seem okay to you. And then on day 101, it's a mess because you just don't know.

Speaker 1: You just don't know. You don't know dog's, personalities, you don't know their tendencies. Um, you don't know how they react or respond to things, what they'll tolerate. You just don't.

Speaker 1: Okay? And in addition to that, the other, so basically what I'm getting at there is this is a thing you're starting to pattern. You're patterning. We're in an environment where there are lots of dogs and you have no leash, no control, no control over your dog, no control over the other dogs, no control over the environment. Like you don't know what kind of dogs your dog's gonna be interacting with, right? So you could be patterning that your dog's interacting with dogs that are absolutely nuts, which is common, much more common than you think your dog learns to tune you out, right?

Speaker 1: So this is a pattern you're setting up where it's like, we're gonna go to a place where there's lots of dogs. Forget about me, don't listen to me. Just focus on the dog. That's not something I really wanna pattern with my dog, right?

Speaker 1: So you're patterning for them to tune you out to see dogs and get escalated to go approach them to just dive into whatever chaos ensues, right? Even if it is friendly and playful and both dogs are enjoying it, or all the dogs are enjoying it, um, you're still patterning. See, escalate, go and forget about me. Right? And that's not to say that your dog can never play with other dogs or have dog friends, right? But I've, I don't think I've ever seen someone in a dog park with control of their dog who could call their dog out of that play, whose dog would just hang out with them and wait for them to say, Hey, why don't you go be free and check out the other dogs?

Speaker 1: It just doesn't happen, right? So, and you can't have it both ways. It's one or the other. Your dogs either prioritizing you or they're prioritizing the other dogs. So it's not that they can't say hi to other dogs, um, although I don't like saying hi to strange dogs, but that's another topic, right? It's not just the fact that your dog is going to say hi to other dogs or interact or play with other dogs. It's the fact that they are prioritizing those dogs above you. And that is the case for 99.9% of dogs there,

Speaker 1: Right? Because there's no process, there's no control, there's no communication. It's just the dog straining on the leash and the leash comes off and the dog flies, right? So you're not patterning the relationship most likely that even you want your patterning see, escalate go and nevermind me. I'm not making the decisions here. You're just removing your leash, which is the device by which you were managing your dog, right? There's no training, there's no communication, there's no prioritization there. It's just, I have this leash that was restraining you and when I remove it, you're just gone.

Speaker 1: So that's not a great thing to pattern with your dog, right? And the other thing you could be patterning, right? Besides just the excitement and giving into that impulse of running up to the dogs and going crazy. The other thing, you could be patterning depending on how your dog feels about everything, and it might depend on who's there that day is fight flight, freeze, right? You might be patterning, oh God, there's this group of dogs, this is awful. Or oh God, there's those nosy, pushy dogs. Or oh God, <laugh>,

13:00 — Depending on the dog and environment, repeated encounters can pattern fear, avoidance, freezing, or…

Speaker 1: There's those dogs that bully me, chase me around, force me to interact when I don't want to. Right? You might be patterning, I have to flee, I have to freeze, I have to hide, or I have to fight. I have to defend myself. Well that might start out subtle, right? And that might escalate over time. And then you go back and you go back and you go back and we start wearing again, wearing that neural pathway in the brain, completing that loop over and over and over again until it escalates and it gets more frequent, more frequent, more intense, more intense, more.

Speaker 1: And eventually your dog now just starts to feel this way. And you can't even walk by other dogs without getting this reaction, right? So now essentially the dog park has ruined your walks <laugh>, which isn't great 'cause like they see a dog and they either get so excited they can't contain themselves, right? Or they go into, I'll get you before you get me mowed or whatever. It is not great. Now, if we're talking about the daycare part of things, number eight, trusting strangers, right? So you're trusting strangers

Speaker 1: To give your dog and all those other dogs appropriate feedback that day and to handle things appropriately and to advocate and do all these things. And they're just not going to. So first of all, these are people that usually don't know that much about dogs. So I think sometimes people, I mean, I can see why you would expect somebody at a daycare to know a lot about dog, right? It seems like they should be an authority on dogs. But I really don't think that's the case. The vast majority of the time. I think a lot of times you probably have teenagers working summer jobs who just like to play with dogs and they think this is gonna be a pretty good gig, right?

Speaker 1: And they get to see that like most of the dogs that come in there are quote unquote really soft, happy, go lucky, friendly dogs, um, that are social and they're having a good time. Even though I don't think that's actually the case. That's how it looks to the untrained eye because they haven't seen quote unquote a problem, right? And so they're used to having dogs that just come in and they don't have a problem and they seem friendly and they seem happy and all this business.

Speaker 1: Um, and then when there is an issue, your dog just gets thrown into the slammer, right? So what happens is

16:00 — When problems occur, daycare may isolate the dog rather than address the stress signals…

Speaker 1: They just, they just don't know, right? And so your dog might actually be displaying signs of stress and discomfort and displeasure and maybe they're uncomfortable and they don't wanna interact or they don't wanna play, or maybe they don't wanna play with a certain dog or whatever the case may be, right? And this dog keeps bothering them, following them, pestering them, maybe getting up on their back, which is rude with their hind legs or putting their head over their head, you know, trying to assert dominance or just trying to get a rise outta your dog or any number of things, right?

Speaker 1: And finally, you know, and this might be the next day, it might be the next week, the next month, but finally your dog says no more and turns around and snaps, whoa. Well now your dog gets thrown in the slammer and now you're paying to have your dog sit in a cell and all your dog do was stand up for itself. And you have to expect, if you're gonna throw your dog in with dozens of strange dogs, there are going to be dogs there that do that stuff.

Speaker 1: There's no way in hell I'll believe that you're gonna fill a yard with dozens of dogs and none of them are gonna behave that way. Most dogs really aren't that well behaved with other dogs <laugh>. So, um, you know, and not all dogs are gonna tolerate that, nor should they. But the thing is, there's nobody there that's gonna say, don't chase that dog around, right? Because first of all, it would be too much work. They're usually outnumbered. The number of humans that are there to dogs is not enough. And number two, they don't know what the hell they're looking for to them, it just looks like a normal dog interaction and it is a normal dog interaction for the record, but it's not what we want, right?

Speaker 1: It's not going anywhere good.

Speaker 1: It just isn't. Dogs will sort of act tense or just avoidant, like they're just walking away and the other dog will be following them, which seems fine and maybe it is, right? But if that pattern continues that same way where one dog is always kind of walking away and the other one's always kind of following, right? Or the other dog comes up and sort of does a play bow or pause at the dog and the other dog just looks away, um, and tries to ignore, but the other dog keeps at it, right? Nobody at the daycare is going to do anything about that.

Speaker 1: They don't do anything about anything until a dog finally flips its lid, right? So they're essentially letting dogs start it out, which is bad news, right? So that's the advice I always give to people in multi dog households. It's like you're gonna keep adding dogs.

Speaker 1: It's gonna be really important that you're all over things because you cannot let dogs sort things out by themselves. It will be ugly. You will not like the way dogs sort things out. They've got one way to do it. And it's called teeth, okay? And that's normal. It doesn't make the dog a bad dog. That's just natural dog behavior. But nobody there is going to intervene in that process or necessarily even notice that any of that's happening until something really happens. And then usually the dog that's just standing up for themselves gets blamed for the whole thing and thrown in the slammer for the day or kicked out, can't come here anymore, right?

19:00 — Strangers usually will not protect your dog, preserve its training, or provide useful behavioral…

Speaker 1: And they're the ones that created the fricking problem in the first place. If they were doing their jobs, it wouldn't have happened <laugh>. So, so that's not for me, thank you very much.

Speaker 1: But strangers will not maintain your training. They won't give your dog productive feedback. They won't tell your dog if your dog is being rude. They won't advocate for your dog if someone's pestering your dog or stressing your dog out or making your dog super uncomfortable, right? They're not gonna advocate for any of the dogs. They're just gonna chuck 'em in the slammer when something goes wrong and kick 'em out. So really not an environment where the dogs learning any new skills or maintaining any skills previously learned that we want them to have. It's mostly an environment where we see these things being eroded, right?

Speaker 1: Because the dogs are only learning from other dogs. They're not getting anything on the human end of things, right? There's no human intervention, there's no human feedback. Um, we're allowing some processes to unfold where we should be intervening and giving feedback and preventing certain outcomes, which could be anything from the dog just saying, Hey, knock it off to like, I'm gonna kill you, right?

Speaker 1: Because dogs will, they don't assign gravity to this stuff. Um, granted some dogs more likely than others, right? So all dogs are different. But again, that's part of the danger. Like you don't know. There's such a variety of personalities there and histories and tendencies and you just don't know. Number seven, you go to a dog park and there's just as many people there as dogs, right? Except there's not, none of them are paying attention. No one's paying attention at the dog park. They're all sitting around scrolling the gram socializing. Um, they're not necessarily watching, they're just there to let their dog burn off some energy.

Speaker 1: They don't really care what's happening. Some people probably have some vague like level of awareness, right? Like they're watching to make sure nothing absolutely crazy happens. Like if dogs get into an actual brawl, yes, they, they might notice that, but, but they're not gonna notice anything leading up to it 'cause they're just not paying attention.

22:00 — Distracted park owners may miss the warning signs that precede a dog’s visible reaction.

Speaker 1: Um, which brings us to number six. Even if they were paying attention, most people aren't super knowledgeable about dog behavior, right? And I don't fault them for that. But I feel like you kind of should be, if you're gonna throw your dog in with dozens of other dogs that you don't know, then you probably should, uh, you probably should do some reading up <laugh>, do a little research, take a class or something on, on dog behavior, right? So you can at least learn some of the more subtle body language stuff in the conversations that are happening between the dogs.

Speaker 1: But most people don't. Of course they don't. And so, you know, they fall into that false, uh, story where they, they think the dog's having a good time, right? They're running around their tail's wagging. That means the dog's having a good time. No, no. That does not mean the dog's having a good time. It means the dog is aroused.

Speaker 1: Well, here's some news for you. If someone's breaking into your house in the middle of the night with a black ski mask on, your dog will also wag their tongue because they are going be aroused <laugh>, it doesn't, right? If your dog likes to attack and kill prey, when your dog sees prey, they will wag their tail. Dogs that like to fight will absolutely wag their tail heading into that fight. It does not mean your dog is happy. It does not mean things are good. It does not mean any of that. So you cannot go by that, right?

Speaker 1: And most people just don't know that. They don't know. They think, oh, tails wagging. That's a good thing, right? Some dogs look kinda like they're smiling 'cause they'll sort of have the corners of their lips pulled back and they'll be like, panting because you know, they're running around so people think, oh, they're running around like they're panting, it's normal.

Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it can be. But a lot of times when you see panting and you see the mouth pulled back like that, it's stress, right? And not necessarily bad. I did an episode on stress. Like I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna take a big like, oh you can't have your dog ever feel stress. That's not what I'm what I mean. But you should recognize that your dog is feeling a level of stress in that environment, right? So then that's kind of a red flag to watch and see, okay, is somebody bothering my dog?

Speaker 1: Is my dog being bullied? Pestered pressured. What's happening? Um, you know, because also like if you're there for your dog to have a good time and that's actually why you're there and you're seeing these signs of stress and like maybe there's really no point in being there <laugh>, right? Because that's not why you went, you didn't go there to stress out your dog, right? So yeah, the stress itself, I'm not super concerned about that dog will be fine. But it's like why are we going there every day just to stress the dog out if they hate it, if the whole reason behind you going there, so, oh my dog loves it, right?

Speaker 1: Those 'cause those are contradictory.

Speaker 1: So people don't notice those signs of stress. People won't notice

Speaker 1: That dogs are being pestered or bullied. They won't notice. So again, if you see that pattern of one dog moving toward and the other dog moving away normally in normal play, that will kind of alternate. It might not be completely even, right? 'cause if dogs have different personalities, one might kind of prefer to chase and one might sort of prefer to run. Um, but if you see one dog always running, especially if they're also exhibiting those signs of stress, one dog that's always moving away with the mouth pulled back panting, right? Maybe they're going and hiding under a bench or hiding behind their owner's leg, right?

26:00 — Avoidance, stress mouth, panting, and hiding together can reveal that a dog wants distance…

Speaker 1: Or just running to different corners of the park trying to like get some space and the other dog's following, right? So now you're seeing a combination. And I always say whenever you're evaluating anything, you're way better off to look at things in a combination.

Speaker 1: That big picture rather than just one thing, right? Like tail wagging alone doesn't mean anything. How it's wagging and what other symptoms you're seeing with the body language. You put 'em all together that gives you a picture, right? So now if you're in the dog park and you've got a dog that's always moving away, is showing a stressed mouth, stress panting, right? Maybe they're kind of stiff or low and kind or maybe they're kind of hiding under or behind things right? Now we know we've got a dog who just doesn't wanna be here. And I see that guys all the time all the time, right?

Speaker 1: But other people don't necessarily notice it. It looks like a nice game of hide and seek to them. And so just something to to think about. Number five, these, all these three all tie together seven, six, and five. So it's just not a productive experience with no feedback, right? Because if people number seven aren't paying attention and people number six are somewhat ignorant to what's actually happening, then of course people aren't gonna intervene. Of course the dogs aren't gonna get the feedback that they need,

Speaker 1: Right? So if you're either not watching or you don't know what the hell you're watching for, then there's no feedback happening. But also there's a human social dynamic here too. So people are obviously different. People are gonna be different levels of hesitant to step in and advocate for their dog when someone else's dog is bothering them. And I see that all the time too. I see dogs pinned on the ground on their back, dogs humping other dogs. Guys, that is terrible. That is bad news. You should not be letting other dogs do that to your dog, right?

Speaker 1: And you can't trust other people to step in and tell their dog not to do that. Because like I said, number seven, they're not paying attention. Or number six, they don't know that it's not okay. Right? Maybe they think anything flies, it's totally fine. This is what dogs do <laugh>. So there's no feedback happening, right? That's number five. No feedback. So it's not a productive experience 'cause your dog is just learning from the other dogs. They're not getting that human feedback piece because it's impossible to get that if people aren't paying attention or don't know what they're looking for, right?

29:00 — Unstructured park time can undermine recalls, boundaries, impulse control, attention, confidence, and coping skills.

Speaker 1: And also dealing with the social dynamic,

Speaker 1: Right? And the people at the dog park, you're gonna have some weird social interactions there anyway, right? These are people <laugh>, these are probably mostly gonna be people that kind of treat their dog like a kid, right? The firm moms are gonna be out and about at the dog park. <laugh>, I'm half kidding, but I think it's kind of true guys. Alright, number four, it's a great place to sharpen all the bad behaviors. Boy is that true? Boy is that true? So when people sign up for a program with us, we tell them before they ever even walk through the door, 'cause it's in my welcome email, my confirmation email, you will not want to go to daycares and dog parks after your training program.

Speaker 1: There is really like why do the training program, why, why do it if afterwards, you're basically going to negate everything that your dog has learned and all the instructions we've given you, right?

Speaker 1: So instead of maintaining control, using structure, nailing down all the boundaries, deepening the communication with your dog, teaching them to resist impulses. And then instead you're gonna take 'em to the dog park, take off the leash, throw 'em in with a bunch of dogs, let 'em pattern all the stuff we've talked about, bullying or getting bullied over excitement, giving into impulses, tuning you out, um, going to daycare where people let 'em jump all over them or let 'em go crazy with other dogs. And they're not practicing anything else. They're not practicing stillness, they're not practicing manners, they're not practicing impulse control, right?

Speaker 1: There's none of that mixed in at all. It's just chaos, right? That will erode everything we've done in your training program. It will erode your dog's confidence, it will erode your dog's engagement, it will erode your dog's attention span and coping skills. None of those things are going to be built up going to these environments. And again, not because your dog can't have dog friends, right? But it's like select dog friends that you know with people you know in environments where it's safe.

Speaker 1: Not just walking into a fence with a bunch of strangers telling your dog to have at it. Nevermind you and good luck out there, boy, <laugh>. See on the other side, <laugh>, that's not productive, right? And just letting your dog be absolutely frantic out of his mind, regardless of what that looks like. Whether he is happy, excited, having a good time, or he is nervous, fearful, anxious, or he is bullying any of that stuff, even if he is having a good time and is fairly well behaved, it's still just frantic, right? The whole time. There's nothing mixed in, there's no recalls, there's no downs, there's no still time, there's no breaks, there's no checks to see if they're responsive.

Speaker 1: It's just go be frantic, frantic, frantic, frantic, frantic, frantic, frantic. So that's all you can pattern there.

Speaker 1: You're not building anything positive. You're eroding all the stuff we work to build with your dog. So we have lots of customers that have friends and family with dogs that their dog hangs out with, right? But the difference is they can walk into that person's yard or into the park with that person and their dog can just ignore that other dog. And then when they and their dog will do whatever they ask them to do, and then when they say, Hey, you know what? This looks great. You're clearly not struggling with arousal, you're not being a nut job.

33:00 — Even enjoyable play can snowball into excessive arousal, roughness, and risky interactions.

Speaker 1: That's great. I'm gonna take the leash off. I'm gonna give you some freedom. Why don't you guys go have some fun? And they know the other dog and what the other dog is like and what their personality is and kind of what to watch for and they trust the other person, right? So great.

Speaker 1: Like that's an optimal dog interaction. It's a dog, you know, it's a person, you know, and your dog is totally under control and responsive, but can go have fun at the same time. And the risk of things going sideways is very low and everyone can have a good time, right? But when you go to somewhere like a dog park or you go to a daycare with strangers in charge, that's where your dog will learn to sharpen all the bad behaviors, all the over arousal, all the over stimulus stimulation, all the anxiety, uh, manners go out the door.

Speaker 1: No one's, no one's enforcing that stuff. They're not going to, it's not their job. Like strangers are not gonna do this stuff for you, right? So you bring your dog here to teach them manners and impulse control and to look to us for direction. And yeah, they can still have fun, but when we say it's like time to go have fun and they can't bolt through doors and they can't just run up to other dogs and be an asshole, like those aren't things they're gonna do for you, right? And just because we did it here, I mean, there's no magic fairy dust where that's gonna like stick in your dog's brain forever if you throw them into an environment that's chaotic like that, and no one's there to enforce rules and boundaries, they just go out the window.

Speaker 1: So you're just patterning a bunch of crap. And I mean, it's just, again, it's not, it's really not their job. It's not anyone else's place to do this for you. And trust me, they won't <laugh>, they won't. Um, so yeah, all that good stuff that we did, it all goes out the door, you know? And the thing is, you put the dogs into an environment like that and even if things start out okay, they get more and more aroused and more and more stimulated, right? Some dogs more than others, some breeds more than others too, right?

Speaker 1: And they might meet, and initially it's okay, but then they get plain and it gets rougher and it gets rougher and it gets more intense. Then the next thing you know, it someone does something rude that's interpreted as rude by the other one. And the next thing you know, it's like, well, let's just kill each other <laugh>. So, um,

Speaker 1: So they're just not, it's not a road you wanna go down. It's not, it's not a loop you want your dog completing over and over every day or regularly or at all, right? But think about the regression that could cause for you or the damage that could cause for you if 1, 2, 3 times a week you're putting your dog into that environment. And right off the bat they're just completing all these loops of arousal, stimulation, having to defend themselves or just getting so crazy and outta control, um, that things start to get sketchy between the dogs.

36:00 — Repeated exposure to chaotic groups can cause regression when dogs constantly rehearse arousal, defense,…

Speaker 1: Whatever it is. Like it's just not a good loop and you're doing it over and over and over and over and it will bleed into everything else. Number three,

Speaker 1: A lot of dogs get easily overwhelmed in groups. That's really common. So much more common than people realize. It's like, yeah, you've got a friend or family with a dog or two dogs and like, you want your dog to have a relationship with them, that's probably fine. Again, depends on the dogs, right? But usually that's fine and a dog can handle that, right? Being put into a situation where they're going to meet one or two new dogs, right? But just kind of throwing them in the volcano with dozens of strange dogs, that's incredibly overwhelming, stressful and scary to a lot of dogs, a lot of dogs that makes them super uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: Uh, and it can be difficult to gain confidence in those environments. And usually with those dogs, what happens is they just learn to defend themselves. They learn they have to snap and they have to avoid, avoid, avoid, and eventually snap.

Speaker 1: And again, you'll see it because they'll be kind of moving away. They don't really wanna be sniffed, um, because it's just, it's too much with everyone coming at them at once like that. So that's something to really consider too. Some people just assume like all dogs are social, all dogs want dog friends, dogs love being with other dogs. No, they don't. It's actually incredibly unnatural. And I'm not saying no dogs do. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying when you think about dogs as their actual most natural selves, it's not natural to go be with other dogs.

Speaker 1: So, uh, why do pe why do dogs bark when someone comes to the door? It's an outsider, it's an alert, it's an outsider. People that you don't know are outsiders. Dogs you don't know are also outsiders, right? And in the wild dogs may very well just go attack and kill the outsider, right? They don't go make friends. It's freaking weird. It truly is. And I'm not saying our dogs are wild dogs. Our dogs are not wolves. Yes, they might be descended from wolves, they're not wolves, they're domestic dogs, right? But domestic dogs also weren't bred to go make friends with other dogs.

Speaker 1: They were bred to be companions and workers to humans.

39:00 — Domestic dogs are not automatically comfortable with unfamiliar dogs; many naturally prefer humans or…

Speaker 1: That's a fact for thousands of years. So it doesn't come naturally. It's not desirable to a good number of dogs. And there's nothing wrong with those dogs. They're just normal dogs. They're not interested in other dogs or they're really uncomfortable around strange dogs. Normal, totally normal guys. And again, like as a culture, we just, we've kind of teddy beared our dogs. Like we expect them to wanna be with other dogs. We expect them to love being poked and prodded by strangers. No, they are animals, they are dogs. They're not stuffies. Even the cutest fluffiest, little adorable dog might just see another dog and say, you know what?

Speaker 1: I'm gonna cut you <laugh> because it's still a dog. It doesn't matter how big or small they are, it doesn't matter how cute they are, they don't necessarily want to go be social with other dogs. So if you are one of those, it's like, oh, my dog loves the dog park. It's like, maybe, maybe not, maybe not. And there's not anything wrong with your dog, right? I think a lot of times it just makes us feel good, gives us the warm fuzzies. It's not really about the dog,

Speaker 1: But dogs easily, easily overwhelmed in that situation where they're outnumbered and they're outnumbered by strange dogs that they don't know, right? And dogs that can be a little mt, a little too invasive, a little too sniffy, like they don't give up and, and move away. Dogs that are rude, dogs will get right on top of you. Of course it's gonna freak your dog out. A lot of dogs get overwhelmed that way, right? And are best introduced to other dogs that we want them to have a relationship with. In small groups where they feel less outnumbered, a little more confident, they can build confidence slowly.

Speaker 1: And there's, you're, you can easily intervene and give feedback because there's only a couple of dogs. Number two, you should really keep in mind that even though most of the time in these environments things don't escalate to a full 10, like full out brawl fight to the death, right? That's not happening constantly. Uh, but it does happen. And it only takes one guys, it only takes one dog with a nasty streak in them or just having a bad day. And what happens is they start something, right? So one thing that is really common for people to fail to recognize is dogs behave a lot differently in groups

42:00 — Group dynamics differ sharply from individual interactions, allowing one flashpoint to trigger a coordinated…

Speaker 1: Pack mentality. Man, it is so different than a single dog. And that's why a lot of times when you hear about dogs killing humans, it's almost always in a group. It's almost always at least two dogs. It's extremely rare that you hear one dog does that. Um, although that does happen too, especially with babies. Um, another whole topic, dark topic maybe for another day. But a lot of times what happens is you get two dogs together and they just kind of feed off each other and they unite and it becomes almost like an operation prey, right?

Speaker 1: It becomes like a coordinated, cooperative effort

Speaker 1: To attack. And that's a, a good, um, that's a typical time when like arousal can just kind of morph into violence. It doesn't necessarily start that way, it just goes there because it's like I always say drunk and frat boys, right? It starts out maybe innocent enough, they're just excited they're aroused. Um, but then they start moving faster and they're kind of going into like drive and that intensity and that arousal is just escalating, escalating. And then it starts to morph into harder biting, squealing, and then killy <laugh>, right? It only takes one. And I've seen the videos where like all the dogs are kind of milling around.

Speaker 1: I'm sure there's stuff going on that's not, you know, perfect. But for the most part it looks like a pretty average day at, you know, the daycare and then one dog just someone steps on his foot or gets too close to him and it just pisses him off and he just turns around and lets that dog have it. And the next thing you know, three quarters of the dogs out there are just piling, right? And you've got one teenage girl or something out there, they're

Speaker 1: Trying to break up a dog fight with, you know, 27 dogs. <laugh>, these stories are real. Like this stuff happens. Um, one dog having a bad day, one interaction that just goes sideways. Um, you, you gotta understand, even if it's just one dog with an attitude problem, that incident affects every dog around them. They're all gonna respond a little bit differently and they're gonna join in some of them. And now you've got actually a group problem. And that can be a real big deal. So it just takes one, you know? So you get to think about that.

Speaker 1: If you're throwing your dog into an environment where there's dozens and dozens of dogs, how many days will it be before one of them has a freak out? You don't know? Well, I'm not comfortable with that <laugh> number one guys. Number one is, it's similar to number two, uh, but you just never know if you're at the dog park, right? And there might be people there and like dogs there that you see there regularly and you've gotten to know them and maybe you feel pretty comfortable. But the bottom line is you never know who just moved into the neighborhood.

45:00 — Dog parks provide no reliable screening, so an owner may bring a dog with…

Speaker 1: You do not know who's going to walk in that fence behind you. You just don't. And let me tell you, as somebody who gets a lot of calls about aggression, I promise you there are people taking their dog to the dog park who know their dog is aggressive. I know that sounds stupid. It sounds ridiculous. It couldn't possibly be true. It is true because let me explain the thought process. People have seen their dog instigate violent interactions with other dogs and they think the solution is socialization, right? Everyone thinks socialization is the answer to all their problems and we just have to get him out around other dogs that are friendly so he can see the other dogs are good, he just has to have a few positive interactions.

Speaker 1: He's gonna learn how to play with other dogs. So they just bring him to the dog park. I shit you not. And so you might be in there with dogs that are relatively safe that you know pretty well and you feel comfortable with, and then someone brings their historically aggressive pit bull in through the gate, takes off the leash and just starts watching and hoping for the best.

Speaker 1: And that dog, and I'm not singling out pit bulls here, but it's a very common scenario. They do tend to be wired to be much more aroused, get stimulated much faster. Um, their brain just seems to release higher. I, and I don't know the science behind this, but they definitely seem to be more adrenaline junkie type dogs, right? So they become more inten, much more intense, much faster. And so if they are

Speaker 1: The type to, um, have the proclivity toward violence, it's just much worse. It just, just is, right? But it could be any breed, it could be any dog, right? But also they're physically built to do damage, so it's going to end up being worse. So I'm kind of giving you like the worst case scenario here, right? Someone comes in with their pit bull that has had negative reactions toward dogs, right? Or tried to attack a dog in the past and they're actually bringing 'em to a dog park, right? But again, could be any breed, but especially a large power breed.

Speaker 1: People do it German Shepherds Rottweilers, right? And they've seen them have issues in the past and they bring them to a dog park. And let's not count out the little ones either because they can cause real damage too. It wasn't a very big dog that took my husband's lip off <laugh>, okay? So don't get fooled into, well I just need to watch who's coming in and I can tell by how they look. No, you can't. No you can't. Yeah, sure. It might be a pity, like I mentioned at first it might be a golden retriever.

49:00 — Entering a dog park means accepting that an unknown, aggressive dog could arrive off-leash…

Speaker 1: I have a lab at my house right now who

Speaker 1: Probably had one of the most vicious reactions to seeing my dog I've ever seen a dog have. So you just don't know. You don't know who's walking in behind you. You don't know why they're there. You don't know what their history is, you don't know what their proclivities are.

Speaker 3: And

Speaker 1: It is extremely possible that they might just come in and the owner unclips the leash and that dog targets your dog and goes in for the kill. Is that super common? No. Does it happen? You betcha. So why is the question?

Speaker 3: And

Speaker 1: I mean, this could happen anywhere, right? You can be walking down the street and this can happen, but at least you're not asking for it. If you're at the dog park, you might as well just be signing off on a waiver that says, I'm fine with that risk. I understand that an aggressive dog could walk through here off leash at any moment and attack my dog because it's, it's just not it's honor system. There's no regulation. Obviously we would like to think that common sense would prevail and people wouldn't bring dogs there that have clearly had a problem historically with other dogs, but they do.

Speaker 4: They do.

Speaker 1: And your dog could potentially be a victim of that super poor decision making, right? Because obviously that's a very poor decision. Someone bringing their dog to a dog park. Um, I mean we could argue that going there anyway is a poor decision, but particularly when it comes to other dog safety, right? Nevermind your own. If you know that your dog has had a violent encounter in the past or has given signs that they want to initiate a violent encounter, they certainly don't belong being thrown with a group of dogs,

Speaker 1: Strange dogs at that. But people do it. And like I said, the thinking is this is gonna help my dog get better. And then they're just sitting there and they're hoping and they're praying. And again, they don't even know what they're looking for. So when their dog starts staring and locking on and those ears go up and their dog gets stiff and the tail's doing a fast wag, they don't see anything happening. I see that and I say, shit, shit, it doesn't look good, right? But no one else is even gonna necessarily notice that until it's too late.

Speaker 1: So just keep in mind, even if all the dogs in there are fine and you're having a dandy time, the next guy through the gate could be a homicidal maniac. And that's the risk you take when you're in those environments. And it can happen at daycare too, less likely because they do go through an evaluation most of the time. But again, if they don't really know exactly what they're looking for, they're gonna let things through the cracks. There are gonna be things that probably should raise some red flags that don't. And so one bad day

Speaker 1: End in disaster.

Speaker 1: So that's our top 10 guys. <laugh> didn't get too many, uh, encouraging, uh, perspectives on going to the daycare and the dog park. I know it was a very biased episode and it should be, it should be. 'cause my opinion is that these places are just not environments that are gonna foster anything productive with our dogs. Like even if we're just talking about letting our dogs go and have fun and have a good time and we are letting them get some energy out, it's just not worth it because of all the risk and all the bad things they're learning in addition to getting their energy out, right?

53:00 — Kati concludes that dog parks and daycares rarely foster productive training and invites questions…

Speaker 1: So you can have both, but you can't have them both in those environments, right? You can take your dog out and get their energy out. You can even have dog friends for them that you know, right? So they can have dog friends and they can run around and play and they can get their energy out and that's fine.

Speaker 1: And they can enjoy the environment. They can do all of those things, right? But if, if you have to sacrifice their safety, their coping skills, their engagement and relationship with you in order to do it, then is it really worth it? I don't think it is, guys. I don't think it is. Give it some thought though, and I welcome any questions anybody has regarding this topic or any topic really feel free to send them to me at Kati Kati at Diamond Canine dot com. That's dia, A-M-O-N-D-C-A-N-I-N e.com. Um, always happy to take those questions, always looking for things to talk about.

Speaker 1: Thank you guys for joining me today and I look forward to next time.